Franko Memorial thread!

[wraith]

Lordy, you are dense. Look, I'll say it again. Each of my original three points, by themselves are not evidence for matter creating consciousness. It's the three together that implies matter creates consciousness.

ahhh ok those points...
I follow you now...

Matter pre-exists consciousness.

Well then, show that TLOP is non-conscious.

Matter can exist without consciousness

Again, show that TLOP is non-conscious.

Consciousness cannot exist without matter.

Due to correlations? I dont refute them. Im saying that they can not be used as evidence for matter creating consciousness. Even still, youre still left having to explain how TLOP is non-conscious, since all your points depend on this to be True.

Church: What evidence is there that any consciousness existed before the emergance of life on this or any other planet? My example above only assumes that geological and astronomical records are representative of the past. In them, there is evidence for matter, but no evidence for consciousness. So, unless these records are not representative of the past or there is a record that we are not aware of, then matter pre-existed consciousness. There is no need to assume that TLOP is itself non-consious, that is merely the ultimate conclusion.

wraith: HAHAHAHA
OMG!
That last sentence of that post contains more 5hi7 than the nappy of a 6 month old baby.

So explain how TLOP being non-conscious is the "ultimate conclusion"

Church: First you need to explain your claim (the actual point of the above quote) that I first assumed that matter creates consciousness. We can get off on your tangent later.

Im sorry?
I dont follow you.

How is TLOP being non-conscious the "ultimate conclusion"?

Holy cow, you are stupid and lazy! I've already looked up one reference for you, I'm not going to do all your work for you. Go find them yourself. I'll even give you a hint: They're in bold just like you asked.

ahhh got them

wraith: How can it be? "Rock" is something that consciousness perceives. It's perceived properties like shape, colour, hardness etc is something that we identify and call "rock".

Church: again.

So a rock is not a rock without someone to there to call it a "rock". That is the most inanly stupid thing you've said yet.

LOL
You think so huh?

What is it then?

Energy. What else?

wraith: Control is one way of figuring out the levels of consciousness,

Church: How do you know this claim is true? This is the question you're begging. You're assuming that it's true to prove that it's true.

When was the last time that you were controlled by your dog or a gold fish?

wraith:I perceive energy as matter, thanks to TLOP.

Church: Lovely, but you didn't answer the question.

My reasoning shows that im not more conscious than TLOP. and that Im perceiving that energy as "matter".

Where in my argument did I assume that TLOP is non-conscious? My argument rests on records of consciusnessness, records of matter, and when each set of records began. That's all.

ahhh you havnt shown how TLOP is non-conscious...you just assumed it to be True...hence the assumption

All your points rest on this assumption of yours....

The Big Mistake.

wraith: Firstly, thats the core of LD. Why the hell would Frank tell the enemy anything valuable? If you cant see the logic on how TLOP is conscious, than youre not going to handle Gravity and Consciousness, not to mention Time.

Church: [Insert the sound of a jaw hitting the floor here]

I take it back. This is the most inanly stupid thing you have ever said. You're making a claim to special knowledge, supposedly what the "logic on how TLOP is conscious" is based on, but you won't tell anyone what the special knowledge is until they already believe that TLOP is conscious?!?

It's very simple. If you dont see the logic in regards to TLOP being conscious, then why continue any further?

You do realize this is a skeptics forum, don't you Why should anyone take something like that on blind faith without something to back it up?

Blind Faith? Ive backed up everything that I have said. I dont ask anyone to believe in what Ive said just because I say that it's True. They have to make up their own mind. Obviously you have aswell.

One of us is closer to the Lie and the other is closer to the Truth.

Tell ya what. Why don't you take your secret dogmatic religion to another forum board where they aren't so skeptical? Maybe you'll have a more positive experience and maybe, just maybe, someone may believe you so you won't be by yourself in all this, eh?

Why? So your words can go along without resistance?

HAHA you can kiss my white ar5e...

edited to add: If you're not even going to seriously try to argue your points anymore, I see no reason to continue, do you?

Is that how you see it? bah...typical

 

[wraith]

I've pretty much given up on him. Wraith, though he has better manners, is simply not as entertaining and creative as Franko. Franko would at least come out with some wacky explanations now and again. Wraith is just a broken record. Since this is Franko's memorial, perhaps we should let him rest in peace.

...just take a seat pops lol

 

[wraith]

So I hear. But then, CFS2 stinks. CFS3 has picked up a lot; real cool graphics, good flight models, VERY detailed damage modeling. Sadly, the AI still stinks. Mmm, I could crank up my CFS2 and we could have an online game, heheh. For online, though, the old CFS1 still rocks.

Hans

yeah, CFS2 wasnt all that good, so I sold it, but it's still on my comp
I still have IL-2 though

 

[wraith]

.

 

[Titananarchy]

"Atoms obey TLOP
You are made of atoms
You obey TLOP"

Thank me later

 

[Upchurch]

Well then, show that TLOP is non-conscious.

[snip]

Again, show that TLOP is non-conscious.

[snip]

Even still, youre still left having to explain how TLOP is non-conscious

[snip]

ahhh you havnt shown how TLOP is non-conscious

It's always been your claim that TLOP is conscious but somehow it's my responsibility to disprove your claim? No. I'm not going to do your work for you any more than I'm going to do it for S&S. If you want to prove your claim, you must do it yourself.

 

[wraith]

It's always been your claim that TLOP is conscious but somehow it's my responsibility to disprove your claim? No. I'm not going to do your work for you any more than I'm going to do it for S&S. If you want to prove your claim, you must do it yourself.

OMG!!!!!

Youre making a claim yourself. Youre saying that TLOP is non-conscious. Im saying that TLOP is conscious.

The onus is on me to back up what I say.
Same deal with you sonny jim

 

[Upchurch]

The onus is on me to back up what I say.
Same deal with you sonny jim

I have. I even put the points in bold and the arguments following. Where is your proof?

 

[wraith]

I have. I even put the points in bold and the arguments following. Where is your proof?

lol

I wouldnt call them "arguments" but if you think they are, then knock yourself out

 

[Upchurch]

lol

I wouldnt call them "arguments" but if you think they are, then knock yourself out

hm.

Once again, I'm forced to draw the conclusion that this conversation can go no futher. Fitting end for Franko's legacy, perhaps. Now maybe it can fade off into the sunset as is only right...

 

[wraith]

Whatever gives you your kicks haha
Im sure that there will be another front fought somewhere.

 

[MRC_Hans]

yeah, CFS2 wasnt all that good, so I sold it, but it's still on my comp
I still have IL-2 though

Nah, CFS2 was just a crappy upgrade of CFS1. CFS3 is quite good, however. That aside, I just found IL2 on a bargain shelf and bought it. Originally, I passed it by because my old 400MHz box was too weak for it, but my new 2.66 gig handles it just fine .

It looks quite good, but I still need to lear the ropes. I agree it's better than CFS2, though of course the graphics are not up to CFS3.

Hans

 

[Dancing David]

OMG!!!!!

Youre making a claim yourself. Youre saying that TLOP is non-conscious. Im saying that TLOP is conscious.

The onus is on me to back up what I say.
Same deal with you sonny jim

So we get back to what is consiousness?
How can we know that something is consious?

Somewhere I think that we touched on this earlier.

Lets see what we can work out.

Consiousness implies the ability to percieve a 'self', consiousness implies therefore the ability to percieve.

Agreed?

 

[Upchurch]

Oh, lordy.

Franko/wraith finally left. Please, let it go.