Franko and Deism.org

[Ipecac]

Ipecac,

I’ve responded in every one of my posts on this subject. You are trying to skirt the issue, because I specifically said A Person who believes that there are no ultimate consequences for their actions. Getting “caught” is a consequence, but tell me Ipecac, what are you claiming the odds of getting caught for a crime are AFTER YOU HAVE CEASED TO EXIST?

To a Theist, they will NEVER CEASE TO EXIST. Do you see the difference? Is this that difficult for your A-Theist mind to comprehend?

Well, there are a few problems here, but let me address just one. You seem to be assuming that no Atheist is actually an Agnostic or Deist at heart, but just can’t call themselves that for whatever reason. it is very similar to a Christian who is really an Agnostic or Atheist, yet, for whatever reason, cannot bring himself to stop labeling himself as a Christian.

I disagree. Obviously you don’t like the analogy because it makes my point, and demonstrates exactly and simply why devout Theists are more likely to be moral then devout Atheists.

You are not a very objective observer. Between Upchurch, Whodini, Plutard, Tricky, and Diogenes alone they have posted 50 insults for every one I have posted. Plus they do not actually respond to any points, or raise any of their own. All they do is post ad hominem. After a while it gets old, but it does demonstrate their religious fanaticism. I remember you also telling me that they weren’t following everyone of my posts with the 5 minute fluff either? Are you STILL standing by that claim? Hehehe ….

You've responded in every one of your posts? Have you read your posts? Here it is again: Since even an evil atheist would potentially get caught WHILE HE IS STILL ALIVE and spend his last days in jail, what would be the incentive for him to risk it? And what if he lives a year, not six months? I have not heard you answer these questions. (BTW, if you define "getting caught" as a consequence, then you've made my point. Because even atheists could get caught.)

I'm not assuming anything about anyone's self-proclaimed beliefs. You do seem to assume that no one is telling the truth about their beliefs but you. You label everyone and claim to understand what they believe but you haven't demonstrated that.

Yes. I don't like the analogy because it makes your point. Absolutely. There is nothing wrong with your analogy. It's perfect. Just ignore all the objections I've made and that you haven't answered.

I will grant you this. You have been assaulted by a large group of people. However, since you constantly dish it out, you can hardly claim to be the victim. If you were unfailingly polite, people would jump to your defense. But since you are so rude, no one feels the need to.

 

[Ipecac]

In simplified syllogistic form:

She controls the universe
The universe controls Ipecac
She controls Ipecac

How odd. I was pretty sure this was going to end up with the conclusion that Ipecac controls the universe. Rats.

 

[Franko]

well good Ipecac ... then you can be done talking to me as well. Have fun with your "buddies".

Trixy -- Go tell your stupid pagan wife -- I just believe what she believes.

 

[Ipecac]

Franko,

Let me make one last attempt to get through to you my objections with your "Atheists gone wild" theory.

Let's look at a Christian who is given six months to live. Now this Christian knows the dogma and knows that he can accept Jesus at any time and be instantly forgiven and allowed into heaven. So, this Christian is absolutely free to steal, rob, rape, pillage, and murder for the full six months, so long as he recants on his death bed. He literally has until the last moment of his life to ask forgiveness. So of course, he'll run amuck.

Now, under your theory, isn't this the way things should fall out?

My answer is of course not. Why? Because people act according to their nature. If you spend your life being a good person who doesn't hurt other people, you're not going to suddenly change because your life is coming to an end. The same goes for atheists. They won't suddenly change their nature because of impending death. Like all people, they want their families cared for. They want to be remembered well. This is a very human need.

So, let's get down to it. Are atheists less than human?

 

[The Fool]

Franko.

Take some advice son. Have a good hard look at the way you behave. If it is not already the case, this forum will become the last place you can post. Not many people here have much patience left for your obnoxious antics. Soon you will be reduced to wandering the streets with a placard trying to engave vagrants in debate...... I'm a little bit sad. I thought you had something to offer but recent events have just confirmed that you are just another loonie on the world wide web.

a spinning goddess?.....Franko, what have you been doing with your life? How about trying something more useful with the rest of it?

 

[Doubt]

A-Theists … so f*cking easy …

Back to profanity again. The pathological behaviour continues........

I was wrong about the time frame. I thought it would only take 48 hours.

How long till he has another melt down and leaves again?

On the plus side, I am sure he will leave for good after the 5th or 6th time. (Two and counting. Three if you include not using the Wraith ID again.)

 

[Tricky]

Trixy -- Go tell your stupid pagan wife -- I just believe what she believes.

Very good, Franko. You have just called yourself stupid in only twelve words. This may be a new record for you.

Now, do you want to answer the very direct question I asked you are you going to turn your yellow belly skyward again?

Tricky asked
Which of these statements is inconsistant with Logical Deism?
1) You have no choice.
2) If you make the wrong choice you will suffer.

 

[Franko]

Ipecac,

Let's look at a Christian who is given six months to live. Now this Christian knows the dogma and knows that he can accept Jesus at any time and be instantly forgiven and allowed into heaven. So, this Christian is absolutely free to steal, rob, rape, pillage, and murder for the full six months, so long as he recants on his death bed. He literally has until the last moment of his life to ask forgiveness. So of course, he'll run amuck

Wasn’t it you that I explained this very point too already? I know I have mentioned this (nearly) exact scenario in relationship to the notion of Karma. Just because you decided to be sane at the last minute doesn’t mean that all of the debts you accrued don’t have to be paid. The deathbed conversion is just you acknowledging “I WILL PAY MY DEBTS”.

Now, under your theory, isn't this the way things should fall out?

My answer is of course not. Why? Because people act according to their nature. If you spend your life being a good person who doesn't hurt other people, you're not going to suddenly change because your life is coming to an end.

Actually I remember reading several articles a few years back about how homosexuals with AIDS were going on crime sprees. The reasons, were some of them figured they’d get better health care in prison, but many found or figured out that they weren’t being prosecuted for the same reason – the government didn’t want the cost of taking care of terminally ill convicts who might spread the disease through the prison system.

I can’t even believe that you are arguing this point, it is so completely absurd in my mind!! Haven’t you ever heard of the concept of Rewards and Punishments? (I am guessing you DO NOT have children?)Are you really telling me that positive an negative reinforcement have no effect on behavior? Because unless you have been actually arguing that devout A-Theists are actually less moral people, it sounds like you are arguing that 50+ years of behavioral research are DEAD WRONG. What is your evidence for this belief? I don’t expect anything out of those retards – Trixy, Plutard, Whodidi, UpBlurch, or Diogenes (did I miss any consistent idiots [Fool, Doubt]) – they sure as hell aren’t going to actually defend their nonsense, but they don’t seem to have totally degraded your algorithm down to nothing yet. You still have a chance.

The same goes for atheists. They won't suddenly change their nature because of impending death. Like all people, they want their families cared for. They want to be remembered well. This is a very human need.

So, let's get down to it. Are atheists less than human?

A-Theists are Evil humans. But like Christians, simply calling yourself an A-Theist alone is not the sum of it. You also have to be an A-Theist in Deed – in Action. In other words, not all A-Theists are devout, they pay the Faith Lip-service, but little more. These A-Theists aren’t quite as evil. But they sure as Hell ain’t helping themselves either.

You believe that there is evidence for “free will”, and no evidence for “god”.

I believe that there is evidence for “God”, and no evidence for “free will”.

Your universe is inside out, and backwards.

 

[Upchurch]

Wasn?t it you that I explained this very point too already? I know I have mentioned this (nearly) exact scenario in relationship to the notion of Karma. Just because you decided to be sane at the last minute doesn?t mean that all of the debts you accrued don?t have to be paid. The deathbed conversion is just you acknowledging ?I WILL PAY MY DEBTS?.

Actually, Franko. I don't believe Ipecac was refering to your religion where deathbed conversions don't aleviate sin, but of a religion where it does, for instance, catholosim or any number fundamentalist christian religions.
Graphic example.

Now, if a follower of this religion learned he had only a few days to live, under your logic, they could go hog wild. As long as they recanted before they died, all is forgiven under his belief system. Right?

(You can make the distinction between someone working under their own religious system and someone working under your own, right? The only reason I ask is you seem to be unable to make a judgment based from an atheist point of view, which as we all know is a religious system in your point of view.)

Still waiting patiently for your answers to many many unanswered questions.

Upchurch

 

[Doubt]

Trixy, Plutard, Whodidi, UpBlurch, or Diogenes (did I miss any consistent idiots [Fool, Doubt]) – they sure as hell aren’t going to actually defend their nonsense, but they don’t seem to have totally degraded your algorithm down to nothing yet. You still have a chance.

Nice to see I made it back on Franko’s list-o-the damned.

To bad I am still an agnostic, instead of the atheist he wants me to be.

I think that Franko’s need to tell us we believe things that we don’t has a lot to do with his hang-up on solipsism. Franko has transposed his fear that he is alone to the rest of us. He wants us to do two things for him:

1.) Disagree with him. That way Franko gets the reassurance that he needs that he is not all alone.

2.) Prove solipsism false for him. He has not been able to do it. If we can, his fear will subside. To bad we cannot. Since we don’t share is hang-up, we just don’t care.

That said, I can think of three purely emotional reasons to behave in a generally moral way even if you don’t believe in god.

1.) Compassion. People generally don’t like to see bad things happen to each other. This can be over-ridden if people deny each other’s humanity. Personally, I think it takes more mental gymnastics to de-humanize other people than to care about them.

2.) Empathy. Not much different than compassion. All you have to do is see something bad happen and ask “What if that were me?” This can also be over-ridden by de-humanizing others, but it does take work to do that.

3.) Love. Pretty much self explanatory. Fits in well with respect and wanting to be treated well. We all need to be loved and most of us are capable of giving it, unless we are truly mentally ill.

All people with fully functioning adult minds experience all three of these. Unless someone can prove that atheists don’t feel these things, then I would have to assume that most of them want to be moral.

If the only reason to behave in a moral manner is fear of god, then we are nothing but a race of cowards.

(edited to fix speeling.)

 

[Franko]

Doubt ...?

... are you feeling marginalized?

Hehehehe!!!

 

[Doubt]

Doubt ...?

... are you feeling marginalized?

Hehehehe!!!

Ahhhhh, no. Why would I?

Have you had a talk with a shrink lately? It might get you over that solipsism thing.

Either that or get laid.


Edited to remove an over-the-top insult.

 

[Upchurch]

I'm fairly certain that I would hear crickets chirping around the unanswered questions that Franko is ignoring (too difficult for him, perhaps? Busy making up new definitions for the words so they work in your favor?), but I just can't tell over Franko's yapping about nothing at all....

Poor Franko. He ain't gots no friends at all...

Upchurch

edited to add:
FYI, Franko, this post would count as fluff. I know you have a hard time distinguishing.

 

[Guest]

Originally posted by Franko

----
Trixy -- Go tell your stupid pagan wife -- I just believe what she believes.
----


Posted by Tricky

----
Very good, Franko. You have just called yourself stupid in only twelve words. This may be a new record for you.
----


HAHA!! I love it.

 

[CWL]

... and we are apparently back to the insults and the flaming.

Oh, well...

Franko, honestly my friend. You are unique on this forum in that you seriously content to know the "Truth" (where "know" is qualified as being 100 % certain, or as having "no margin of error" as I believe you have put it yourself). Yet you fail to explain HOW you can know the truth (at least so that I may comprehend).

Can you not see why this may be regarded as being rather contentious?

 

[MRC_Hans]

I think perhaps there might be a key in this (snipped from another thread)

Somebody asks

Sure, people can get upset when playing a game. What does that have to do with life?

And Franko answers:

How is life different?

The only inference I can make from this is that Franko mistakes life for some sort of game. Something like a big game of DD with himself as the dungeon master's helper (or something, my knowlege of DD is sketchy). This would explain the disregard for the feelings and opinions of others, and also much of the weird logic.

Much as I would like to keep playing (this is really challenging -- or is it challenged? -Oh well), I cannot keep exploiting a sick mind for my personal fun. I kept thinking that there was sense behind it, but I see I'm mistaken.

Game over.

Hans

 

[Upchurch]

The only inference I can make from this is that Franko mistakes life for some sort of game. Something like a big game of DD with himself as the dungeon master's helper (or something, my knowlege of DD is sketchy). This would explain the disregard for the feelings and opinions of others, and also much of the weird logic.

Interesting observation, Hans.

I've been known to play a little D&D in my time. There was no such thing as a DM's master helper in any of the games that I played, but the rules can very from group to group. I've known many, many gamers and there is a tendency among the more hard core players to confuse the game with real life. The problem is, things are much easier in the game than they are in real life. All the rules are spelled out and are self-consistent enough for "daily life" that it's easy to want adopt a similar system IRL. However, when put against real world problems or that of deeper philisophical questions, it breaks down.

This might, and this is pure speculation, shed some light on the origin of the female nature of Franko's Logical Goddess. Perhaps his character (the one he identifies himself with), followed a female god in the game or, perhaps, he had the ever-rare female DM. Gaming might also explain why Franko's definitions are askew and his arguments repetitive. D&D does the same thing to keep it's game logic internally consistant. (Although obviously, Franko would have had to mis-apply this technique to arrive at the inconsistant philosophy he currently proports.)

Poor Franko....

Upchurch

 

[Checkmite]

I've played AD&D in high school, although I didn't get as caught up in it as others did (i.e., to the point of being confused as to when the game stops and reality starts), so I am familiar with the concepts. But that is beside the point.

My problem with the D&D analogy is that it begs the question. In D&D, you know there is a DM...you directly communicate with this person throughout the entire game. You can see the DM's face - although not whatever they're working on, due to the screen. The DM is as much a player in the game as anyone, albeit with a more involved role. He does a lot more than just "subtly and mysteriously direct the course of the game"...he's not like the mysterious voice in the Gauntlet video games that does nothing but say "Red Warrior needs food, badly" every once in awhile.

But the D&D analogy, while it describes the God hypothesis in a sense, cannot be used to prove the truth of the God hypothesis. Franko asked "how is reality different from a game of D&D?" I say that it's different because in D&D, everyone knows there's a DM...but in reality, the existence of the "DM" is very much in question.

 

[Upchurch]

In D&D, you know there is a DM...you directly communicate with this person throughout the entire game.

Well, that's kinda my point. Franko has said that he KNOWS his goddess is there, which lend credence to the idea.

Upchurch

 

[Checkmite]

Well, that's kinda my point. Franko has said that he KNOWS his goddess is there, which lend credence to the idea.

Upchurch

Right, so all we need to do to understand Franko's mindset is understand what convinced him that the Goddess is there. I'm attempting to do this in my direct questions thread.

BTW, thanks to you and Tricky for deleting your posts. I'd rather have just Franko and I conversing in that thread (though it's not like I can stop anyone else from posting). This isn't because I don't agree with your's or Tricky's arguments, it's just because I don't want Franko using them as an excuse to "forget" about my questions and go off on a tangent. Meanwhile, I'm trying to figure out who this Yalel is, and what the hell he's raving about (apologies to Randi ). But on second thought, I'll just ignore him and hope he goes away.