France to lower the retirement age back to 60

[DOC]

So much for European austerity.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...nt-Francois-Hollande-cuts-retirement-age.html

I hope they don't raise the retirement age for Social Security in the US, but I have a feeling that could be the case if Romney became president.

 

[The Don]

It only applies to those who started work at 18 or less. In general (though not exclusively) these will be lower-skilled jobs, perhaps that have a physical evidence. Perhaps it is a misguided attempt to address youth unemployment for the less-skilled by removing some people who are blocking employment.

In general however, retirement ages will have to rise in line with life expectancy. That's OK for people like me who do indoor work with no heavy lifting but it'll be increasingly difficult for those who do hard physical labour.

 

[Flo]

At last count, it will concern about 100,000 people, who will be able to retire at 60 provided they've contributed for 41 years at least.

Besides, France has a huge problem with seniors' unemployment ...

 

[stokes234]

In general however, retirement ages will have to rise in line with life expectancy. That's OK for people like me who do indoor work with no heavy lifting but it'll be increasingly difficult for those who do hard physical labour.

That depends on our priorities. It could be argued that one of the main purposes of building all these automatic systems that don't require workers is so that we no longer have to keep working past the age of 60.

 

[The Don]

That depends on our priorities. It could be argued that one of the main purposes of building all these automatic systems that don't require workers is so that we no longer have to keep working past the age of 60.

But how can we afford to retire ?

At a conservative estimate we'd each require a retirement fund of £1million to afford to retire comfortably at 60. I can't see a manual labourer affording to do that.

 

[Beerina]

Math says otherwise.

Nobody saves though, as that is needed much less than spending everything you earn as you earn it.

 

[Ziggurat]

http://demotivators.despair.com/demotivational/effortdemotivator.jpg

Edited by LashL: 

Removed hotlinked image and replaced with regular link. Please see Rule 5.

 

[Francesca R]

It could be argued that one of the main purposes of building all these automatic systems that don't require workers is so that we no longer have to keep working past the age of 60.

That is the purpose of these automatic systems. In jargon that is an exogenous increase in total factor productivity, or innovation, or technical progress, and it increases real output per hour and per person. So people need to work less to generate the same increase in purchasing power.

Unfortunately other developments more than offset it, in France's case and in just about everyone's in the developed world. Those are increased real consumption needs, including healthcare (due to living longer), lower investment returns (somebody, somewhere, necessarily has to invest in order for someone else to retire), and increased ratios of retired folks to working ones.

Hence, at best, progress only slightly mitigates the need for people to save more, and doesn't reverse it.

 

[Architect]

So much for European austerity.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...nt-Francois-Hollande-cuts-retirement-age.html

I hope they don't raise the retirement age for Social Security in the US, but I have a feeling that could be the case if Romney became president.

Are you suggesting that France is representative of the whole of Europe?

 

[GlennB]

At last count, it will concern about 100,000 people, who will be able to retire at 60 provided they've contributed for 41 years at least.

My bolding, and it bears repeating.

A lot of these debates about retirement age neglect the fact that the age mentioned is just a theoretical possibility. Why should a person who has worked solidly for 41 years be limited to a national retirement age that also includes people with patchy employment histories?

 

[Beerina]

From a national retirement point-of-view, it might encourage people to make sure they get themselves re-employed faster. This could increase revenues and decrease outlays to unemployment benefits.

"41 and out"

 

[lionking]

But how can we afford to retire ?

At a conservative estimate we'd each require a retirement fund of £1million to afford to retire comfortably at 60. I can't see a manual labourer affording to do that.

I'm nearly 62 and have nowhere near that (although the house is worth a fair bit). But I enjoy my job, and don't planto retire for five years at least. At least we don't have a mandatory retirement in Australia, as we once did (65).

 

[The Don]

I'm nearly 62 and have nowhere near that (although the house is worth a fair bit). But I enjoy my job, and don't planto retire for five years at least. At least we don't have a mandatory retirement in Australia, as we once did (65).

IIRC you enjoy your job and it's indoor work with no heavy lifting. I'm conflicted about mandatory retirement. On one hand, if someone is willing and capable of doing a job then there's no reason to force them to retire but on the other hand, they may be restricting employment opportunities for people at the start of their career (youth unemployment in the UK is a significant issue - particularly among those with few or poor skills) and there's a point where someone may no longer be capable of doing their job.

I'd hate to be in the position where I was doing hard manual labour late into my 60s.

 

[lionking]

See, I could still do manual work, and know many tradesmen my age still working, and earning more than me.

Sorry a bit OT.

 

[Eddie Dane]

About the French work ethic.

I've met quite a few people who work in the higher echelons of French companies.
The culture is insanely harsh. Part-time is looked down upon and a career ender. Want less travel so you can see your kids more often? Get a nanny you big pussy.
Reporting to management (every two weeks) is a nerve wrecking experience.
If you want a career, give up your personal life, is what it comes down to.

The French school system for the upper and middle classes is also extremely demanding and result-oriented.

So, I don't buy the cliché.

Same with the military cliché.
Anybody starting a war with France will quickly find out that the French army is a junkyard dog with nukes.

It's just that their working-class and civil servants are saturated with an almost bizarre sense of entitlement.

 

[Francesca R]

I'm conflicted about mandatory retirement. On one hand, if someone is willing and capable of doing a job then there's no reason to force them to retire but on the other hand, they may be restricting employment opportunities for people at the start of their career (youth unemployment in the UK is a significant issue - particularly among those with few or poor skills)

Have you seen evidence for this? I think a consensus now regards this idea as a manifestation of the "lump of labour fallacy", in which employment is a finite-sum competition. Similar ideas are restricting working hours (Hello again, France) and restricting immigration and foreign competition.

 

[The Don]

Have you seen evidence for this? I think a consensus now regards this idea as a manifestation of the "lump of labour fallacy", in which employment is a finite-sum competition. Similar ideas are restricting working hours (Hello again, France) and restricting immigration and foreign competition.

No, I have not, I have merely heard it reported as such.

There was a similar situation a number of years ago in the teaching profession where my parents were encouraged to take early retirement to free up posts for young teachers coming out of teaching college but it was probably more to do with getting rid of teachers at the top of pay scales than necessarily generating demand for young teachers.

 

[geni]

http://demotivators.despair.com/demotivational/effortdemotivator.jpg

So we can add you to the list of pampered air conditioned office workers. Hard work kills people all the time. Start with the standard occupational hazards stuff and then factor in hard work making you tired. The resulting acident investigations can make fairly depressing reading.

 

[Humes fork]

In general however, retirement ages will have to rise in line with life expectancy.

This is perfectly obvious to me yet a lot of people seem to have a problem with it. It becomes unsustainable if the working part of the population will have to provide for an ever growing non-working part.

Presumably France is expecting that the more economically productive European countries will add what gets missing in their budget. No thanks!

 

[Francesca R]

This is perfectly obvious to me yet a lot of people seem to have a problem with it. [ . . . ] Presumably France is expecting that the more economically productive European countries will add what gets missing in their budget. No thanks!

Per post 8, the European dream, as opposed to the American one, is/was that exogenous technological progress would drive up real incomes per head such that people could choose to take more leisure or to be richer, with the preferred idea being the first one; retire at 60, get a house en Provence, sip cafe-au-lait in the place at 11am.

And this would theoretically work except that longevity, fertility, and investment returns all moved so far the wrong way as to completely overwhelm the productivity effect and then some (and then lots).