Four Students Dismissed in Hazing Incedent.

[Sledge]

So a rigorous training and selection regime is of less value in finding the right people than giving them a punch? I'm going to have to ask for some evidence at this point.

 

[Sam.I.Am]

So a rigorous training and selection regime is of less value in finding the right people than giving them a punch? I'm going to have to ask for some evidence at this point.

Where did I say that? I said that the selection and training can only weed out so much and that in the end you can only find out who can handle the job by throwing them in and then seeing how they do. Most of the guys who couldn't handle it never got to the dolphin part to begin with (I only say most because I did know a guy who was on the USS Bonefish when she burned up out at sea (losing 3 or 4 crew members to the fire) and he was subsequently (and understandably IMO) freaked out during some situations and was found to be unfit for the job anymore. We didn't find that out until we were out to sea though). I also said that there are guys that choose to not get their dolphins tacked on and they tend to have a bit of a harder time of it for a few months than the ones who didn't opt out. For that matter there were guys who opted in for the "Punch" and still weren't liked by the vast majority of the crew for a lot longer than that.

It's much more complex than a simple punch to the chest by a few guys.

 

[crimresearch]

I kinda figured the training and selection processes had already done that.

The members of the cohort don't control the training or selection process, which is perceived as an external factor.

Internal synthesis is one of the factors in initiation rituals.

 

[Sam.I.Am]

The members of the cohort don't control the training or selection process, which is perceived as an external factor.

Internal synthesis is one of the factors in initiation rituals.

I think that that's probably a fair way to phrase it without putting too fine of a point on it. Thank you Mr. Spock.

 

[Pup]

But anyway, as I already said initially, any group that would force me to do something stupid/humiliating/painful/anything that I don't want to do, is not a group I'd ever want to join anyway, so there is no "social price" being "paid". That's my entire point.

I agree. And then there's also the problem that afterwards, they would expect you to want to do something stupid/humiliating/painful to another person. I'm just not interested in being accepted by people like that and in fact would prefer not to be considered one of them.

The whole concept is a mystery to me, but I guess a certain type of person gets something out of it, just like there are "joiners" who apparently get something out of alliance with a group larger than themselves, and "loners" like me who don't see the point of joining groups at all.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

When members of a group take it upon themselves to ostracize and/or criticize people who were exercising their judgment by not joining that particular group, it becomes a serious problem. A young college student shouldn't be pressured to engage in these activities.

Yes, at that age they are considered adults, and are responsible for their own actions, but that doesn't excuse the behavior of others who are perfectly willing to exploit the naivete of "fresh recruits."

 

[Morrigan]

^ I do agree with that, I didn't mean to be blaming the victim, so to speak. I was just commenting at how bizarre, foreign and alien this subculture is to me.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I agree with Morrigan, and I have a penis.

One can say it is a bonding ritual, but why do it when one can bond over playing cards or talking over lunch? Seriously, why should I "bond" over abuse? Like, I can see how it functions as a social tool, but does that negate the abusive aspect? Like, is binge drinking acceptable because people use it to "blow of steam"? No, ffs find something better.

At my high school we had "fish friday", where freshman would have a fish drawn on them. Fairly innocuous, but *********** annoying and stupid. Didn't bond with anyone, thank you very much.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

^ I do agree with that, I didn't mean to be blaming the victim, so to speak. I was just commenting at how bizarre, foreign and alien this subculture is to me.

It wasn't addressed to you. I apologize if you thought I was targeting you. Unfortunately, I've experienced this subculture, and I abhor it.

 

[Checkmite]

I concur with those who state they would not join a group whose process of initiation required a newcomer to endure pain or humiliation. That's BS, simple as that. I can't help but feel such practices are more the result of the established members' pleasurable display of power/authority/dominance than a need or desire to promote group "bonding" or "cohesion", especially considering that hazing is probably the worst of all possible methods to achieve the latter end. Hazing doesn't signify equality and cohesion; it rather divides the group into those with power (the established members) and those without it (the initiate), and comprises a dramatic demonstration of this power imbalance by forcing the latter to submit to unreasonable demands from the former.

 

[ZirconBlue]

I kinda figured the training and selection processes had already done that.

One would think. I participate in an activity that is very regimented and disciplined (Drum and Bugle Corps), but, for us, the training is the "initiation". It's making it through the process that "bonds" the unit.

 

[crimresearch]

One would think. I participate in an activity that is very regimented and disciplined (Drum and Bugle Corps), but, for us, the training is the "initiation". It's making it through the process that "bonds" the unit.

And yet the problems at FAMU are within the Marching 100, one of the top such 'disciplined' bands in the country.

 

[crimresearch]

I concur with those who state they would not join a group whose process of initiation required a newcomer to endure pain or humiliation. That's BS, simple as that. I can't help but feel such practices are more the result of the established members' pleasurable display of power/authority/dominance than a need or desire to promote group "bonding" or "cohesion", especially considering that hazing is probably the worst of all possible methods to achieve the latter end. Hazing doesn't signify equality and cohesion; it rather divides the group into those with power (the established members) and those without it (the initiate), and comprises a dramatic demonstration of this power imbalance by forcing the latter to submit to unreasonable demands from the former.

A demonstration that promises similar power in the future to those who 'suck it up' (the social price mentioned earlier). Not everyone is drawn to such power, but many are.

And from this environment we get our athletes, and coaches, as well as many of our business, military, and political 'leaders'.

 

[ZirconBlue]

And yet the problems at FAMU are within the Marching 100, one of the top such 'disciplined' bands in the country.

A) Drum Corps =/= Marching Band. Drum & Bugle Corps are, as a rule, much more rigorous, disciplined, and militaristic than college marching bands. And
2) So what? You start with "and yet" as if you've somehow caught me out. That some ostensibly similar organization engages in such stupidity doesn't mean that it's appropriate or necessary, nor does it undermine my experience of belonging to multiple such groups which did not engage in such idiocy.

 

[Mark6]

^ To each his own, sure... I still think they're idiots, though.: P

Maybe. I know guys who feel similarly as I do, though.

Agree with Morrigan and with Tsukasa. I am male, and the whole concept of "we've all been through this, now you are one of us, bro" has no attraction to me whatsoever. For that matter, I never had much desire to be "part of something bigger than myself". Oddly, I was in the military (USAF), but never really fit in.

Nonsense. I don't wear fancy clothes or accessories and I don't have children. I don't feel like I'm paying any "social" price. What kind of society do you live in FFS?

Learned something new! Until now I was sure Morrigan is male.

 

[alphahelix]

Pinning was once for insignia, like the Navy dolphins, or the Army's blood wings.

Tacking was a punch in the arm so that newly a earned rank patch 'doesn't fall off'.

Another tradition was carrying a 'charge book' for those expecting promotion to E-7.

This was before anyone took banning such things seriously. After the prohibitions, I get the sense that people just borrowed cool sounding names for various hazing/initiation actions.

When I was in the USMC I remember on one of my rank promotions the rank was placed on my collar and then the officer crossed his wrists and pressed into the rank with similiar force as you would close a plastic container I felt the prick of the pins in my collar bone area. It wasn't painful, nor did I take any perticular exception to the experience. It was a lil unexpected

I have on occasion heard of "pinning the blood stripe" where newly promoted E4's would get hit with a switch, rod or guide on to make the "stripe" appear under their trousers where the stripe was on the service blue trousers. Never seen it thou and the time I was serving if any Staff NCO found out about it it was supposed to be considered assault with brig time. Don't know about now but I still figure things of that nature are still frowned upon.

 

[Checkmite]

So what is this all about?

 

[kmortis]

Keep it civil and on topic, folks.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: kmortis

 

[crimresearch]

A) Drum Corps =/= Marching Band. Drum & Bugle Corps are, as a rule, much more rigorous, disciplined, and militaristic than college marching bands. And
2) So what? You start with "and yet" as if you've somehow caught me out. That some ostensibly similar organization engages in such stupidity doesn't mean that it's appropriate or necessary, nor does it undermine my experience of belonging to multiple such groups which did not engage in such idiocy.

While that is one way to look at what I said, it leaves out the context of what has already been posted.

On that initial premise, no causal link between training/selection and lack of hazing has been shown, and from a rational standpoint, anecdotal evidence isn't convincing in supporting any such connection.

 

[ZirconBlue]

While that is one way to look at what I said, it leaves out the context of what has already been posted.

On that initial premise, no causal link between training/selection and lack of hazing has been shown, and from a rational standpoint, anecdotal evidence isn't convincing in supporting any such connection.

Good thing I wasn't trying to suggest such a causal link then, huh? I was just offering my experience with some well-disciplined and close-knit groups that didn't engage in hazing as examples to demonstrate that hazing is not a necessary component.