FOTL - Sovereign Citizens

[Zep]

I understand Kent Hovind tried this type of argument to convince the Florida judge that he did not have to pay due payroll and other taxes. Not exactly pure FOTL, but along the same lines of "refusal to accept the jurisdiction being imposed". This was at the advice of his "lawyer"/accountant. The judge in that case was scathing and thorough in his rebuttal, and Hovind is now doing a 10 year stretch in the pokey for said offences.

 

[Dave Rogers]

FOTLs have the (mistaken) belief that Statute Laws (as opposed to the Common Law) only apply to those who have "consented" to these Statute Laws. By "removing their consent", they think they can live without regard to these laws. The most common examples of the laws they want to avoid are not paying taxes, and not having car registrations or driver's licenses.

Don't forget the other common example, which is that they want to avoid having to pay back debts they've already incurred. Apparently, in this specific instance, it's OK to benefit from the law but not to have to accept the corresponding duties.

Actually, it's the same with car registrations and drivers' licenses. They don't recognise the obligation to observe the regulations, but they demand the right to use highways constructed with the taxes they refuse to pay.

In short, they're loathsome parasites.

Dave

 

[lionking]

In short, they're loathsome parasites.

Dave

True, but a hell of a lot of fun. I just love seeing youtubes and transcripts of these idiots in action.

 

[Horatius]

So they want the right to secede from the laws of a nation or a society, and to not be governed by anybody?

As near as I can figure out, they claim this right already exists, and that anybody who is aware of it can lawfully exercise it, right now, today.

Exactly. Their major delusion is that they act as if the world is already the way they want it to be, instead of acting to make it the way they want it to be. That's largely what distinguishes them from an actual political movement.

They borrow a lot of rhetoric from other political philosophies (libertarianism is probably the most obvious), which allows them to sometimes appear as if they are a real political movement, but it's their insistence that this is how the world already is that gives them away.

 

[GreyArea]

Can someone just explain the definition of sovereign citizen?

Here you go:

The ideas of the "sovereign citizens" movement originate in the ideology of the Posse Comitatus, an anti-Semitic group that raged through the Midwest in the late 1970s and 1980s. Sovereign citizens claim that they are not subject to most taxes, are not citizens of the United States (but instead are "non-resident aliens"), cannot be tried for crimes in which there is no complaining victim (zoning and professional licensing violations, for instance), and are only subject to "common law courts," a sort of people's tribunal with no lawyers. ...

Sovereign citizens also often distinguish between so-called "14th Amendment citizens," who are subject to federal and state governments, and themselves, who are also known as "organic citizens" — an ideology that causes adherents to claim that black people, who only became legal citizens when the 14th Amendment was passed after the Civil War, have far fewer rights than whites. Some of the more famous adherents of sovereign citizens ideology include Oklahoma City bombing conspirator Terry Nichols and members of the Montana Freemen.

http://www.splcenter.org/get-inform.../winter/house-of-ill-repute/what-is-a-soverei

The "sovereign citizens'" origins in (and continued inclinations toward) anti-Semitism, white supremacy, and Christian supremacy should be sufficient evidence of the kind of hierarchy they champion. In the old days, people like them ran the state and Federal governments, but now they recognize that they've lost that monopoly of power. So now they want to shut down any more-inclusive levels of democratic government because they are more inclusive. They don't believe that anyone but straight, white, Christian men should be allowed to participate in democracy.

They are not anarchists. They are the kinds of people who kill anarchists.

These "sovereignty" ideas aren't just a legal/political theory. They can also be promoted by scam artists looking to make a buck. Consider the case of Roger Elvick:
http://www.splcenter.org/get-inform...se-all-issues/2005/summer/patriots-for-profit Also see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redemption_movement

Gives new meaning to "straw man argument", doesn't it?

They borrow a lot of rhetoric from other political philosophies (libertarianism is probably the most obvious)....

I'm not so sure they draw from mainline 1970's-style U.S. Libertarianism. However, if you mean the Ron Paul/John Birch Society version of "libertarianism", I'd agree there.

Instead, the "sovereign citizens" origins lie among various white supremacist and fascist movements in the U.S. Look into the Posse Comitatus organization of the 60's, which has roots among Silver Shirts. Posse Comitatus also draws on Christian Identity ideas.

Brief overview: Posse Comitatus (organization) -- Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_(organization)

Great detail about the origins and legal "theory" of these clowns:
Common Law and Uncommon Courts: An Overview of the Common Law Court Movement -- Militia Watchdog (1997)
http://www.adl.org/mwd/common.asp

Some more information on Christian Identity and William Potter Gale:
The Posse Comitatus -- The Nizkor Project (this page seems to be from the late 90's)
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/adl/paranoia-as-patriotism/posse-comitatus.html

Christian Identity
http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity

 

[Horatius]

It actually sounds like the "sovereign citizens" movement as described above, while similar in some respects to the FOTL movement, has some added US-specific notions, and a lot more racism.

It would be interesting to see which came first.

 

[GreyArea]

So they want the right to secede from the laws of a nation or a society, and to not be governed by anybody?

Oh, they want to be governed alright, but only by "Real Americans" just like them.

The parent movement, Posse Comitatus, wanted the county to be the highest level of government. Note that there are still many counties in the U.S. that are whiter than the whitest states. There are also many very-white counties in states that have many non-white people. Independence from state capitals would mean "independence" from non-white legislators elected by non-white constituents in another county.

"Fourteenth Amendment Citizens" aren't "Real Americans", you see.

And since they are adverse to "statutes" (that is, laws that are written down), every time a dispute arises they'll have to re-invent the entire dispute resolution mechanism from scratch.

They'd probably use judges, of the proper complexion and faith, of course.

The "nice" thing about them is that a biased decision by a good old boy can be made to look fair a lot more easily than a biased law can be. A statute is there for all to see and debate over time, but a decision is harder to shape and predict and under less public scrutiny for fine-tuning.

I think there may be a bit of a Biblical element to such government, as well. The Old Testament had plenty of "judges", but a distinct lack of democratic legislatures.

 

[dudalb]

Don't forget the other common example, which is that they want to avoid having to pay back debts they've already incurred. Apparently, in this specific instance, it's OK to benefit from the law but not to have to accept the corresponding duties.

Actually, it's the same with car registrations and drivers' licenses. They don't recognise the obligation to observe the regulations, but they demand the right to use highways constructed with the taxes they refuse to pay.

In short, they're loathsome parasites.

Dave

Hence the accurate nickname for these kooks "Freeloaders On the Land".

 

[cwalner]

Here you go:

<snip>

Thanks for that educaiton post GreyArea

and Yikes!

 

[ponderingturtle]

FOTL is my favorite conspiracy theory. Pure refined lunacy. Everything it says can be easily tested, AND IS, but the adherents to the cult refuse to accept the failure. They're now at the point of claiming being sent to prison over trivial charges (non-payment of a few hundred pounds in tax, for instance) is actually a victory. I cannot recommend the FOTL thread enough.

I don't know, I ran into a believer in David Icke the other day. That is some grade A number 1 crazy right there.

Could actualy be an interesting premise for an RPG though.

 

[GreyArea]

It actually sounds like the "sovereign citizens" movement as described above, while similar in some respects to the FOTL movement, has some added US-specific notions, and a lot more racism.

It would be interesting to see which came first.

I remember reading about "sovereign citizens" in the 1990's, and I am quite certain that term is older. I only heard of the FOTL folks after I started reading the JREF Forums.

The "redemption" scam/conspiracy theory goes back to the 1990's, too, as promoted by scammers like "Right Way L.A.W." group. See an April 24, 2001, article from the Akron Beacon Journal article (preserved here) about some people convicted for harassing public officials.

Right Way L.A.W. is not the sole proprietor of the "redemption theory,'' which has roots in the 1980s common law movements in Montana and elsewhere, and has since spread with several variations, experts say.

The idea is based on a belief that the Uniform Commercial Code, which regulates business transactions, actually governs everything in the United States, including criminal and traffic proceedings.

By learning how to manipulate the code, a citizen can gain access to his U.S. Treasury account containing hundreds of thousands of dollars and increase his balance by converting everything from a speeding ticket to an indictment into cash.

The more adventurous believers may write checks off these imaginary accounts and attempt to buy things, such as Cadillacs in Cleveland or mortgages in Idaho.

Almay said the Lehmans were the first in Ohio to use the process to intimidate public officials.

If "redemption" has roots in "1980s common law movements in Montana", that takes us back another decade with a movement with a different name and similar notions. The "Posse Comitatus" organization, which I described above, goes back to the late 1960's.

I would hypothesize that ideas like this are like urban legends, transforming over time. It may be necessary to change the name to avoid being associated with the previous round of scam artists and their legal penalties, especially if a Google search will dissuade potential marks.


Looking around online, one of the earliest mentions I can find for the FOTL is a LiveJournal post by a Canadian named Robert Menard at www.thinkfree.ca . Be careful, there are several men online with that name, but this one makes it easier by eventually styling it "Robert-Arthur: Ménard". The Wayback Machine has caches of his site as far back as 2005, and text about the FOTL in 2007. Maybe he is a missing link in the process of renaming the "sovereign citizens movement" the "Freeman on the Land movement". He seems to get active promoting his idea around 2007. (I haven't read much of the other JREF threads on FOTL, so maybe this is already covered there.)

Was Menard active on the David Icke forums, and is that how the idea spread to Britain?

Also, let's not forget the Montana Freemen. That name might have something to do with the coinage of the new phrase. And they also issued false liens to harass government officials, basing their actions on bizarre legal theories.

-------------------

Here are the earliest mentions I could find using Google for the FOTL and the SCM. This is not the best tool, but it may be a general indicator of timing.

Google's blog archive (which only goes back as far as 2000)

-- the phrase "Freeman on the Land": a LiveJournal message in September 2006 ( http://owenferguson.livejournal.com/192230.html )*
-- the phrase "sovereign citizen movement": Orcinus, June 13, 2003 ( http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2003/06/what-motivates-terrorists.html )


Google's news archive
-- the phrase "Freeman on the Land": WKRG-TV, January 2010: http://www.wkrg.com/alabama/article/loper_convicted_on_all_four_counts/646861/Jan-14-2010_5-19-pm/
-- the phrase "sovereign citizen movement": Portland Press Herald, Sep 25, 1994 (behind a paywall, so I can't be sure this is an accurate date)
Better example here: Ocala Star-Banner, September 6, 1996 ( http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we...page=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM )

Google Groups seemed to give a lot of false positives, especially for "Freeman on the Land".
-- the phrase "sovereign citizen movement": "OKC Questions / McAlvany", misc.activism.militia, June 24, 1995

Google Books
-- the phrase "Freeman on the Land": nothing referring to the movement
-- the phrase "sovereign citizen movement": Journal of the American Scientific Affiliation, a snippet from 1997
and "The Lure of the Millennium: The Year 2000 and Beyond" By Raymond F. Bulman, 1999

 

[ponderingturtle]

I understand Kent Hovind tried this type of argument to convince the Florida judge that he did not have to pay due payroll and other taxes. Not exactly pure FOTL, but along the same lines of "refusal to accept the jurisdiction being imposed". This was at the advice of his "lawyer"/accountant. The judge in that case was scathing and thorough in his rebuttal, and Hovind is now doing a 10 year stretch in the pokey for said offences.

I thought his argument was that the employees pay was gifts, and that as gifts he did not have to pay taxes on it.

 

[cwalner]

Looking around online, one of the earliest mentions I can find for the FOTL is a LiveJournal post by a Canadian named Robert Menard at www.thinkfree.ca . Be careful, there are several men online with that name, but this one makes it easier by eventually styling it "Robert-Arthur: Ménard". The Wayback Machine has caches of his site as far back as 2005, and text about the FOTL in 2007. Maybe he is a missing link in the process of renaming the "sovereign citizens movement" the "Freeman on the Land movement". He seems to get active promoting his idea around 2007. (I haven't read much of the other JREF threads on FOTL, so maybe this is already covered there.)

Was Menard active on the David Icke forums, and is that how the idea spread to Britain?

If you want to take the time to get caught up on this thread:
The Freeman Movement and England
Menard himself posted briefly and Jargon Buster has posted several links to the Icke forums that Menard has posted to as well.

 

[dudalb]

FOTL and Hidden Reptilian Overlords:A Truly fitting match.

 

[EvilBiker]

FOTL?

Fruit of the Loom?

Myself, I prefer Fruit of the Loon

 

[commandlinegamer]

Myself, I prefer Fruit of the Loon

I'll buy that T-shirt.

 

[Toke]

FOTL?

Fruit of the Loom?

It is a brand-name of some pretty good work t-shirts, I once got 10 of them for 100KR (15-20$).
The colours were real eyesores, but no one in the engine room cared.

 

[talkie toaster]

I understand Kent Hovind tried this type of argument to convince the Florida judge that he did not have to pay due payroll and other taxes. Not exactly pure FOTL, but along the same lines of "refusal to accept the jurisdiction being imposed". This was at the advice of his "lawyer"/accountant. The judge in that case was scathing and thorough in his rebuttal, and Hovind is now doing a 10 year stretch in the pokey for said offences.

Having just recently discovered this wonderful source of humour, FOTL, I am inclined to think that this will be viewed as a success for said FOTLers.

"Yes I could have paid my £35 speeding ticket but with my FOTL knowledge I'm now doing a 3 stretch, still, I stuck it the man and won."