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Fossil and Evolution

I think the statistical argument proceeds from a false premise -- one which especially appeals to the "design" mindset.

[snip]

In the absence of finding that designer, the default position is that we are here as the result of random chance, no matter how unlikely that may appear, because the alternative possibility: that we are here as the result of magic, is infinitely less likely.
This is an excellent discussion of the probability arguments. I take a more simple minded approach. We're here. We can see that genetic mechanisms got us here. There is no evidence of irreducible complexity.

So figuring out how that occurred in 3.5 billion or so years would not involve calculating if random chance had enough time to work. If there were a problem with timing, I'd be looking to fine tune evolution theory, not claiming it was evidence of a designer.

While I understand the principle of not looking for preconceived evidence, there is another one called forming the most logical hypothesis. We are here so obviously we got here. There is no evidence for gods having anything to do with it so a designer is not a supportable hypothesis.

In addition, it's about as complex as tracking the weather to figure this mutation timetable out. While most evolution deniers think one can come up with a single rate, that isn't how selection pressures work. And we have seen experimental analyses of viruses which indicate some areas on DNA and RNA strands are more stable and some mutate more readily (also a selection advantage in a changing environment for a microbe to have more mutations affecting its outer protein coat while conserving the inner vital functions with less mutations). Then you must throw in the variety of ways we see genetic material exchanged both inter and intra species. It ain't all by sex.

I see no reason to even investigate the timetable problem if the goal is to use it to support or refute evolution. It can do neither nor is any more evidence required which supports evolution theory. We do use the rate of mutation to track organisms back to when the last related ancestors likely occurred. And the number of mutations by which two organisms differ can tell you if two infections are epidemiologically linked.

That guy who thought he was so clever claiming there couldn't have been enough time for evolution to explain the variety of species on the planet was naive.
 
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You mean the same Wells who just can't seem to be honest about Hox genes these days? The same who wrote The Totally Incorrect Guide To Darwinism?

We know all about the Moonie. Don't pollute your mind or this thread with his drivel. The guy is a total fraud.

I guess great minds think alike. I was just getting ready to point out the Talk Origins page on Wells and suggest specifically the Icons of Obfuscation essay linked on that page. Well's work is so shoddy it shouldn't even warrent mention on forums like JREF exept to note show shoddy it is.
 
no, dear--I can't keep up. I don't know what the time loop thing is...I was busy wondering why you don't quite seem to understand natural selection or probability--But that's just silly old me. I'm sure you're busy amassing data for your loop paradox hypothesis which will be a much better explanation of the observed phenomena, I'm sure. Do remember, arti, when you get that nobel prize, will you? And I'm spouting religion because of your "gee willikers how could consciousness evolve" argument--not because of something I made up about you. It's a refrain of yours I've heard repeated in several of your arguments. The Cambrian phylum thing is new, but I have no doubt that if it's been answered it's been ignored just like everything else that contradicts or negates or answers the questions posed at you and by you. I shan't be dashing off looking for answers for you to ignore--rather I'll hang out and wait until someone somewhere brings up better evidence for something else.

But, at least answer this question... if it wasn't "intelligently designed" (however you define that), would you want to know?

Okay, good question. Since we can't answer questions about what IS or what WAS, maybe at least I can answer what I would DO.:)

Would I want to know if it turns out the universe and life is all due to mechanism? If it turns out mind is mechanism? Well, you've been around me enough to know I've said I used to believe both. I was a true-believer in mechanism. I started grad school to study artificial intelligence. I had to be a true believer in mechanism, don't you agree. But years later I fell off the wagon.:)

So your question is whether I could ever get back on the wagon? That is a highly speculative scenario. It is hard to separate out the two parts of a seemingly compound question. Do I believe mechanism will be shown ever to be sufficient to explain evolution or to explain consciousness? I don't believe so. But it is silly to accept evidence and not believe the conclusion. I think that I would easily succumb to the conclusion that random mutation and natural selection is a sufficient mechanism that creates new stuff if some genetic algorithm was somehow demonstrated that created new stuff. So far genetic algorithms are goal oriented so the deus ex machina is there in the artificial selection criterion.

Years ago, when I was a true Ev-believer, someone told me that there were algorithms that not only proved theorems, the algorithms came up with theorems to prove. I thought that was good pro-evolution stuff. Now I've read that is half-true or plain false in the context that I took it. In fact, mathematics is probably going to be more of a frontier for evolutionary science than biology over this century, in my opinion. Read Gregory Chaitin's latest book - it's very cool.

Oh, and the Cambrian thing is NOT new. Didn't even Darwin comment about the (what'd he call it?) Silurian fossils not having precursors??

But there was a big coverup in the early 1900s when the Burgess shale fossils were discovered.

It ain't new, honey.

Still... I'd like you to think about the "time loop paradox" thing and how it could really help evolution along, for anyone who has a problem with "not enough time" as I do.

Science fiction makes use of time loop paradox a lot. And as I said, quantum physics may not outlaw it. The latest SciAm addendum on black holes even brings it up. I think it was Bekenstein who brought it up. (You like Sciam Arti... go read it). Did you see Schwartzeneggar's Terminator2? Remember how the robot and the human come back to our time from the future? Remember how a little bit of Arnold's advanced electronics is left behind (he got crushed by a hydraulic press and broke into bits). The engineers retro-engineered it and it advanced our science. But that's a paradox. Where'd the information come from? The future? But the future got it from the past and the past got it from the future. Cool!

So what if there were crappy little do nothing molecules around for a billion years, evolving ever so slowly. Then a time wormhole develops and sucks the molecules up and squirts them back, maybe in the same place, a billion years into the past. Then it evolves for a billion years and the worm hole sucks the more advanced molecules up and squirts it into the past. What would the fossil record look like if timeworm holes took future developments and plopped them into the past? It would look like what we actually see in the fossil record!

See? I actually got back to the thread here: the fossil record gaps.:)
 
...
That guy who thought he was so clever claiming there couldn't have been enough time for evolution to explain the variety of species on the planet was naive.

"That guy" would be whom?


Francis Crick? Naive? Maybe, but perhaps smarter than you. At least probably more notorious...
 
I guess great minds think alike. I was just getting ready to point out the Talk Origins page on Wells and suggest specifically the Icons of Obfuscation essay linked on that page. Well's work is so shoddy it shouldn't even warrent mention on forums like JREF exept to note show shoddy it is.

I read some of the stuff by Wells, but not the dreck - until one of you pointed it out. A Moonie? Shheeeeez.

Nevertheless, the stuff on Urey Miller I read authored by Wells appears to be accurate.

What fraud do you accuse him of with regard to Hox genes?

Not only that, I don't understand the attitude that someone who you believe is a fraud should not be discussed on Jref. Isn't that largely what is done here? Like Sylvia Browne? Etc? Don't you relish the frauds? Makes good discussion doesn't it?
 
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And... To go from a bacterium to people is less of a step than to go from a mixture of amino acids to a bacterium. — Lynn Margulis
Since how abiogenesis occurs isn't known, how can this conclusion be known?

...In the early 80s it was popular to presume RNA as precursor. I think that's been debunked. Most might say now that proteins are the precursors. Some assume a parallel development of peptides and neucleic acids. Even if you have a system of enzymes that have some semblence of reproduction and metabolism, how did the emergence of encoding their structure into neucleic acid code evolve? We don't have any theories with any sort of detail, so we can only calculate the probability of a very complex thing spontaneously appearing. Even if a strand of DNA popped into existence, it would need a host of proteins surrounding it, in order to translate the code into living machinery.
We have the theory of evolution. And there are a number of hypotheses regarding abiogenesis.

...The reason I have trouble with billions of years and billions of molecules is that you can fantasize about having a supply of molecules greater than the number of atoms in the universe and add to that a universe that is much more complex than primordial soup. And still the numbers are against you.

Let's say there are 10^70 atoms in the universe. Okay, poof... for every atom let's fantasize there is a magic machine - 10^70 machines. Each machine assembles a DNA sequence each and every second. The machines are interconnected by some network of communications so that machines do not duplicate the work, they each work on a different part of the problem. The problem is to assemble every possible DNA sequence of a certain length. The supply of C A T G (call them "letters")is infinite and comes from another dimension - infinite primordial soup - see?

Now the question is what do we allow as the minimum sequence for a minimum protolife. If I say 1000 letters, someone will say it may take less than that. We say 900 letters, someone will say that there may be a huge amount of ways to code 900 letters that will still produce a machine that satisfies minimum conditions for being defined as proto-life. Okay, but I can keep making it smaller and smaller until it is too minimal to be proto-life. Somewhere between too minimal, and just minimal, is the threshold. We can pick a number. I'll say 400 letters even though I can't imagine how that could really be sufficient. I think that is generous - at least to me. And you asked me how can I believe a billion years and billion molecules doesn't work - I am using numbers that are generous in my opinion.

Let's go on. So we have 10^70 machines, each takes one second to assemble a 400 letter string, pocketa-pocketa all the machines produce a new sequence each second: 10^70 each second in the whole universe. No duplication or redundancy - no waste of time - no machine overlaps the work of another machine. There are 10^8 seconds per year. But given 400 letters, there are 4^400 combinations the machines have to go through to make all possible ones. That's 10^240 combinations. How long will it take 10^70 machines to go through 10^240 combinations?

How many times will 10^70 * 10^8 go into 10^240. That's easy.
10^240/10^78= 10^162 years!!!!

The universe is only 10^10 years old. The time 10^162 years is tantamount to infinite time. Oh, it doesn't have to go through ALL combinations - true. Then use the mean time. Half of it. In orders of magnitude base 10, one-half doesn't help you much does it? An engineer would say 10^162 years divided by two is 10^162 years :) .

I must have seen calculations like this over and over and for some reason never really paid attention to it. I rolled my eyes. One day, I tried to calculate such things myself and saw how unlikely gaps can be jumped by chance. The word "unlikely" takes on new meaning when you see numbers like 10^162 years for a mere 400 amino acids.
Reminds me of when I ponder the Universe. Trouble is I ponder it with little expertise in cosmology or physics. My expertise is in microorganisms that cause disease. Because that involves a heavy dose of genetic science I can say with confidence, your pondering shows little expertise on how the mechanisms of evolution work.

You claim the RNA hypothesis has been discarded. My understanding is all that has been questioned is how did you get to the RNA? In other words it didn't go back far enough. But Joyce demonstrated you can go from free RNA molecules to something resembling the material one considers living. And we have a great number of RNA based viruses.

The smallest genome listed on this site contains 10 genes and 5,386 base pairs. For a bacterium this Live Science article cites the "Carsonella's genome codes for 182 proteins." But you also have some unknown steps those protolife forms could have gone through that we just have not yet discovered.
Carsonella lives inside a leaf-munching insect, called a psyllid [image]. They have a symbiotic relationship. The bacteria's sheltered life has allowed it to pare its genome down to the bare minimum. There are certain genes necessary for life that the bacteria's genome lacks, but these are compensated for by its insect host.

Carsonella might one day lose its identity altogether and become a permanent organ, or "organelle," inside the insect's cell, the researcher speculate. This has happened a few times before in the history of life. The organelles responsible for energy production in animal cells and photosynthesis in plant cells are likewise thought to have once been free-roaming bacteria that larger cells assimilated long ago.
So you just can't go off making claims the probability is improbable. You don't know what processes occurred that could have acted as catalysts or how symbiotic chemical reactions played a part.
 
I read some of the stuff by Wells, but not the dreck - until one of you pointed it out. A Moonie? Shheeeeez.

Nevertheless, the stuff on Urey Miller I read authored by Wells appears to be accurate.

What fraud do you accuse him of with regard to Hox genes?

You could take the link I provided above or delphi's link and they'll both lead you to the Hox essay on pandasthumb. Here's a direct link to the Icons of Obfuscation response on Miller-Urey.

Not only that, I don't understand the attitude that someone who you believe is a fraud should not be discussed on Jref. Isn't that largely what is done here? Like Sylvia Browne? Etc? Don't you relish the frauds? Makes good discussion doesn't it?

You completely misunderstood what I meant. "Well's work is so shoddy, it shouldn't warrent mention on forums like JREF (meaning people posting here should know better than to cite it as authoritive), except to note how shoddy it is (i.e. to point out the flaws and errors)"
 
"That guy" would be whom?


Francis Crick? Naive? Maybe, but perhaps smarter than you. At least probably more notorious...
No it wasn't Crick. It's some guy the IDers and Creationists always cite as having done the math. I'll have to find it. It isn't like it was a memorable discovery.
 
In 8 pages I can't recall if this article from Live Science has been cited:

Metabolism first

Shapiro, however, thinks this so-called "RNA world" is still too complex to be the origin of life. Information-carrying molecules like RNA are sequences of molecular "bits." The primordial soup would be full of things that would terminate these sequences before they grew long enough to be useful, Shapiro says.

"In the very beginning, you couldn't have genetic material that could copy itself unless you had chemists back then doing it for you," Shapiro told LiveScience.

Instead of complex molecules, life started with small molecules interacting through a closed cycle of reactions, Shapiro argues in the June issue of the Quarterly Review of Biology. These reactions would produce compounds that would feed back into the cycle, creating an ever-growing reaction network.

All the interrelated chemistry might be contained in simple membranes, or what physicist Freeman Dyson calls "garbage bags." These might divide just like cells do, with each new bag carrying the chemicals to restart—or replicate—the original cycle. In this way, "genetic" information could be passed down.

Moreover, the system could evolve by creating more complicated molecules that would perform the reactions better than the small molecules. "The system would learn to make slightly larger molecules," Shapiro says.

This origin of life based on small molecules is sometimes called "metabolism first" (to contrast it with the "genes first" RNA world). To answer critics who say that small-molecule chemistry is not organized enough to produce life, Shapiro introduces the concept of an energetically favorable "driver reaction" that would act as a constant engine to run the various cycles.
It discusses the two theories* about abiogenesis.

*The reason I refer to these as theories and maybe I had it wrong in my earlier post is there are two schools of thought described here which encompass more than the hypotheses one might propose to test the theory.

This was interesting from the article as well:
Life's Big Questions

When? The oldest known fossils, called stromatolites, are about 3.5 billion years old. Although debated, these colonial structures appear to have been formed by photosynthesizing cyanobacteria (blue-green algae). Simpler organisms likely came earlier.

Where? The main competing theories are hot start vs. cold start. The one claims that the first life fed off the sulfur chemistry near a hot volcanic vent, while the other says that temperatures had to be cooler to have stable bio-molecules.

What? Genetic analysis shows that hyperthermophiles sit near the root of the tree of life, implying an ancient origin. But this does not mean these hot-loving microbes were the first to breathe life; they may simply have survived meteorite impacts that wiped out everything else on the primordial Earth. What's more certain is that the first organisms were anaerobic, as there was little oxygen in our planet's early atmosphere.
 
I can't find the "some guy" that I looked at in another thread someone else cited first because it turns out there have been more than one fitting the description. It's in another thread here though, from not too far back.

However, I did one better. Here's a page from infidels.org where one Mr Richard Carrier has gone to the trouble of finding the faulty logic in all the improbability claims. I'm sure the same can be found on talkorigins.org as well.

Addendum B: Are the Odds Against the Origin of Life Too Great to Accept?

It really does get tiring hearing the same arguments over and over despite the fact these religious inspired claims there is some scientific evidence refuting evolution have been debunked already and are just not controversies. The abiogenesis question remains, the question that the theory of evolution is correct is not controversial. It's only the religiously indoctrinated who can't accept that fact.
 
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I understand. But...

Let's cast this in terms of a good 100 word story. I recently wrote a 99 word flash fiction story myself. It's difficult to tell a whole story in a mere 99 word limit.

We can't begin to answer, as you well pointed out, how many possible ways life could have formed - therefore we cannot predict probabilities. Okay, you've made that point. It's a useful thought. Since we can't even have a discussion about something with so little basis of what is true about it, let's go to this 100 word story analogy.

Let's say the average word length in English is 6 letters and there are 27 letters including "space". The simplest approximation to the amount of information in a 100 word story is 600 letters. That is 27^600 possibilities or in base 10 it is 10^859 possibilities.

What is the chance of finding my 100 word story in this haystack? If we had each atom in the universe reading these 100 word "stories", 10^78 stories would be read per year and 10^88 stories would be read in the life of the universe. The ratio of 10^88 / 10^859 is tantamount to zero. Or stated differently, it would take 10^771 times the life of the universe to read all 100 word stories if every atom in the universe read a different story each and every second!

Ah, you say. But how many different stories can be written in English? Huge amounts of 100 word stories can be written in English! How do you calculate that? Let's say there are 10^5 English words. Now all the combinations of English 100 word stories is only 10^5^100, as a limit. Just because it is a concatenation of English words makes it a "story" not. But let's use this number 10^5^100 = 10^500 different stories. Hell, that's a lot of stories!

But while 10^500 stories is HUGE, it is a tiny fraction of all possible 600 letter combinations. 10^500 / 10^859 is tantamount to ZERO! That is, 10^-359 is such a vanishingly small value it IS zero for all practical purposes in our physical universe.

Now, I know I only made an argument for 100 word stories, but it is a reasonable analogy relating possible life-forms to possible English stories.

At least I think I brought something of substance to compare with. You are correct we cannot venture to guess how many different forms of life there could be. How many different periodic charts are possible if you jack around with physical laws? How many other worlds are possible that would support life - much less intelligent life. Who knows?

But it may be surprising to you, until you calculate it as I have done, that the amount of 100 word stories in English that could possibly have a flying chance of being a story, out of all 100 word letter-combinations, is ZERO for all practical purposes. I am prejudiced to be bent toward thinking that it is reasonable to also expect that the amount of possible "living worlds" is tantamount to ZERO in ratio to all possible things.

That is all the point I can make. The rest is just arguing about each other's biases and prejudices. ...this is more philosophy than science.
No, you don't understand.

You continue to adopt the "design mindset." Consequently, your analogy above is false, because you presume, a priori, that there is a subset of some total possibilities from which an organism will eventually arise to finally discuss the issue in this forum.

The above premise is simply false. We cannot work backward from our present state and estimate the odds of our being here, any more than we can estimate the odds of a ball falling into the slot of a roulette wheel containing no slots.

Prior to the universe existing, the odds of any particular future event occurring are equal, because given a set of limitless possibilities, all outcomes are equally likely.

To correct your analogy, you would have to take an infinite set of possible letters of infinite combination and then estimate the odds of an infinite number of possible stories of infinite length written in an infinite number of possible languages.

What are the odds of everything happening by chance, when selected from a set containing all possibilities?

Unity.

We are here, because it is inevitable, and it is not philosophy to say so. What IS philosophy is to say that "we" must be of some particular composition/nature, because we could have been anything, in any shape, size or composition.

If we had appeared in some other universe, made of gold instead of carbon, and the entire universe was constituted in a manner which permitted this, then that's what we would be.

Design is only meaningful in view of actual knowledge of the designer -- otherwise, given that infinite set of possibilities, even the designer's proverbial Boeing 747 could have occurred by pure accident in a universe which looked exactly like a junkyard.

Such a thought is only absurd, because we are here thinking such a thing from our perspective, But, in the universe where the 747 sits alone in the blackness of space, it's completely rational -- and in fact, it's the only possible outcome.

You have limited yourself to a mindset which prevents you from accepting that random chance can explain everything. Everything, that is, except for God, because God is the literal antithesis of randomness. If God exists, then randomness cannot, because God must know all in order to be God -- and randomness eschews all possible advance knowledge.

To bring this back to your English story analogy, could one million monkeys with typewriters bang out the complete works of Shakespeare, given sufficient time?

The answer is unequivocally, Yes. In our universe, this incredible accident actually occurred -- accomplished not by one million monkeys, but by only ONE!

His name, of course, was William Shakespeare.

N.B. And, he did it with a quill pen!
 
Hoyle was one on that list in my last post but he wasn't the 'guy' someone else cited that I am referring to. It's one of those memories where I know what transpired but can't remember the name. Someone posted something to the effect "some guy" had done "the calculations". I checked and the guy was as wrong as the rest of them for the usual reasons.

It was however a calculation supposedly looking at first life to modern life. It wasn't the claims like Hoyles about the probability of the molecules forming before the first life.

I'll have to find the thread. Apparently I was wrong anyway so it matters not.
 
But, at least answer this question... if it wasn't "intelligently designed" (however you define that), would you want to know?

Von, I'm going to take your non response as a "no".

And the chiral arrangement was mentioned in the second link. The first one was about Urey Miller experiment with more refined knowledge....what exactly do you think counts as life? Viruses? amino acids?, ribosomes? RNa strands? We can make whole genes in test tubes, you know...

However, as much as I enjoy sparring with you, I make it a policy not to talk to creationists, because (as the Dover trial makes abundantly clear) no evidence is ever enough to sway those whose belief in an intelligent designer depends on not understanding some part of evolution. Just like the world kept being a sphere even though the believers were sure it could not be--evolution continues to be a fact, and we are unraveling some very exciting information. I'm sorry you can't appreciate it. But I'm sure you're enjoying your status of knowing more than everyone else does via some divine or special knowledge. Hopefully, one day you can explain it to the rest of us so we can put it to the test and see if it explains anything as well as rm/ns does...or the abiogenesis info. I sited. Deny it all you want...doesn't stop the facts from coming in. At least you have a back up of consciousness that you won't let science explain. For Francis Collins I think it's morality-- but neuroscience have some pretty good in roads on both of those fronts too. Just like evolution...it's amazing when you keep chipping away at the information and going the direction it leads...amazing complexity can result. If only faith could do the same. Tsk.
 
You mean the same Wells who just can't seem to be honest about Hox genes these days? The same who wrote The Totally Incorrect Guide To Darwinism?

We know all about the Moonie. Don't pollute your mind or this thread with his drivel. The guy is a total fraud.

Let's see...Moonies, Scientologists, Raelians, Christian Fundies, and Muslim Fundies--I think that about covers the base of people who cannot comprehend evolution--and all have a vested interest in not understanding. If only they were all on the same page with what they thought the problems were--but each creationist has his only magical conundrum that science "can't explain" (and therefore "x" is true).

I think the Behe testimony is just a stunning example of this. Page after page detailing how IC is an illusion...with detailed peer reviewed articles. And it wasn't enough...when you have to point to flagellum to support your intelligent designer, I think it's time to hang up the towel. Ah well...they're old guys...the young won't be so easily indoctrinated with access to the web.
I just think about these kids growing up learning crap and then being disgusted that the adults they trusted most are proven to be such ignorant twits.

I can't imagine they think some proof of "intelligent design" is going to manifest somehow or that all their bluster is going to keep science from finding out the facts. It amazes me that people must presume that scientists all over the world have been fooled into believing a lie while never ever considering if it is themselves who may have been fooled. And with DNA, it's very easy to find out which side has the most useful information--the facts--the truth.
 
"That guy" would be whom?


Francis Crick? Naive? Maybe, but perhaps smarter than you. At least probably more notorious...

Von, I don't believe you ever believed or understood evolution. All creationist arguments are arguments first proposed by biologists--and then answered by them...they were used to guide our knowledge. I posted a peer reviewed science article on a math proof for evolution on the "annoying creationist" thread. But creationists are never interested in the answers to these questions they steal from biologists--they just want to exploit them to create doubt. They never answer them themselves. No matter how smart the creationist is, they just never are curious or even up on the latest science when it comes to their favorite murky area in evolution. And never ever do they show evidence in support of some better theory--just sarcasm and arrogance at those silly scientists eager to gather and test the facts to find out more. Creationists are such a give away--they have no interest in finding out more...they can't see it or absorb it. No evidence will ever be enough to convince Kleinman that is math is crap...and nothing will be enough to convince you that your math is crap either. But not understanding the math, is not an argument for design. Especially when others have no problem with it. Remember, it was the same mutation that happened in that primordial soup that was the progenitor of all life...every step, just as to happen once amongst an infinite amount of divisions and an infinite amount of time--and we know that it did...we can SEE it. And be real...the second they get a self replicator from non-life in a test tube, you will be denying it and then promoting your "consciousness" could not have evolved argument.

And yes, I know that you are old...it's old smart guys that have the biggest problems with evolution and providing the fodder to fool the young and naive--but the facts just keep being the facts no matter how much you don't want them to be true.

But I admire your tenacity and fairly good natured arrogance. :) I still think you are a full-of-crap creationist, however. And I also don't believe that you ever understood or believed in evolution completely. Unless you're Francis Collins--in which case, I'm guessing a tumor in the parietal lobe...known to induce religious type seizures, you know.

And when you say you were a believe in Ev--are you referring to Kleinman's math model of Ev based on point mutation--please don't tell me you're that uninformed.
 
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I guess great minds think alike. I was just getting ready to point out the Talk Origins page on Wells and suggest specifically the Icons of Obfuscation essay linked on that page. Well's work is so shoddy it shouldn't even warrent mention on forums like JREF exept to note show shoddy it is.

Yep--when the fact aren't on your side...muddy the water so no-one quite knows what the facts look like and then declare yourself a victor wherever there is the slightest doubt.
 
To bring this back to your English story analogy, could one million monkeys with typewriters bang out the complete works of Shakespeare, given sufficient time?

The answer is unequivocally, Yes. In our universe, this incredible accident actually occurred -- accomplished not by one million monkeys, but by only ONE!

His name, of course, was William Shakespeare.

N.B. And, he did it with a quill pen!

And the monkey and 747 analogy only applies to the random part--but evolution is far from random...it has input which makes some features "stick" and others not (natural selection)--that is like monkeys typing and every time one of the letters in the next shakespearean word sticks when they type it and the rest just fall off the page because they have nothing to make them stick. Or a worldwind assembling things again and again and the good designs sticking...I mean airplanes evolved from earlier airplanes...and then from humans looking at birds...and it evolved in nature numerous times because sometimes, gliding or flying or being able to be airborne enhances an organisms chance for survival or reproduction. Heck, even the clueless dandilion fluff seedlings have evolved that trick! Creationists never really seem to "get" the natural selection part of the equation, because they are too fixated on the appearance of design. Plus, we only see the experiments that had some degree of success and not the eons of failures nor all trillions upon trillions of gametes that never fertilize anything...all the cells that never devided...we see only what's left...what worked...and we've just developed the tools to see these things and understand what we are looking at and how it fits together.

Dawkins mentioned that--the thing how creationists speak of it all coming about by "chance"--they over emphasize the randomness (like point mutations) and don't seem to grasp the invisible tiny ratcheting through the eons that IS the selction process. There's tons of "mutations" going on--lots of molecules with life-ish properties--but only the workable ones stick around. And the "next step" only has to happen once. ONCE...in eons...One sticking factor that allows for another sticking factor...non disjunction for example. A translocation that only works when mated with a relative that carries the same mutation. If it's a good mutation--it can evolve to a whole new species. That's one of the things that happened between us and our common chimp ancestor. Cool, eh?
 

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