Forthcoming UK TV - Derren Brown Seance

[LillyThePink]

Right, if all of what he does is rubbish i.e trickery, then what's the point in watching it??

Because it provides a very entertaining illustration of the kind of reading and manipulation that is possible WITHOUT claiming any kind of psychic ability.

Didn't you ever watch something just to be entertained by it, Ian?

 

[Interesting Ian]

The key thing is that he admits trickery without which he produces some effects that produce identical results to some psychics. Most of his tricks far exceed anything psychics can do..

Since he uses trickery this is scarcely surprising for crying out loud!

His show is not about tests in laboratory conditions. There is no point, nothing he does is supernatural.

Are you completely stupid or what??? Are you really truly too stupid to understand my point or are you just pissing me about???

 

[fsol]

Ian, for the benefit of those of us who aren't "blessed" with your an intellect like yours, what exactly is your point?

 

[Lothian]

Could you please provide a reference where Derren admits to being a con artist rather than using psychological manipulation??

His website says he is an a psychological illusionist. You know what an illusionist is I presume.

Right, if all of what he does is rubbish i.e trickery, then what's the point in watching it??

Entertainment.

 

[Interesting Ian]

If he causes some people to question their blind acceptance of psychic abilities then all the better.
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Here here! [/B]

But he does this by cheating for Chr*st sake! He implies that he achieves a lot of what he does by psychological manipulation. People think . ."hmmm . .I would have thought that this could only be achieved by paranormal powers. Therefore on previous occasions when I thought something was a paranormal effect, it might have simply been psychological manipulation also".

But we now find out that perhaps everything he does is trickery and has nothing to do with psychological manipulation.

This means that he's dishonestly influencing people to become skeptics!

 

[Lothian]

Are you completely stupid or what???

What

Are you really truly too stupid to understand my point or are you just pissing me about???

Are you really truly too stupid to understand MY point or are you just pissing ME about???

 

[Marian]

I do not know so much about magicians, but one of the things I remember is David Copperfield (I used to have a crush on him ) making dissapar such things as big tanks and was it Statue of Liberty or Eifel Tower, a big mountain and so on.

Now, if I understand correctly how the trick is done, I think it by its nature involves the co-operation of ALL the audience present while filming, and they clearly know how the trick is done and participate in it. The audience watching on TV, on the other hand, thinks that the audience in the studio is a real audience amazed by the trick.

I am not sure they adhere to the other rules, either. Magicians ar enot very likely to tell us as they like to keep their secrets

I read how that trick was done (Statue of Liberty). Assuming what I read was correct (and I believe it to be) the audience was also fooled. It took place at night, and the audience present on the boat/barge whatever it was also saw it vanish. AFAIK they were no more or less 'in on it' than the television audience.

Going off memory with that specific trick (and without giving it away, though you could probably google today how that trick was done, I read it in a book personally) the statue was shown all lit up, then the 'curtain' went up, blocking the statue from the view of the audience as well as the viewers at home. The rest of the show was various other magic tricks, then at some point the curtain was removed and the statue was vanished. Then the curtain was placed back up, more tricks, then the statue was back again before the end of the show.

I honestly don't recall if I had figured it out prior to reading about it (it was in a book on how various things are done, not specifically magic tricks, but many other things, I think by William Poundstone, something like that I should look it up) or not. And unfortunately after you read something like that I think it biases you to thinking Well THAT was easy!.

But as far as I can recall the audience wasn't in on it, though you can speculate whether or not they were able to figure it out or not...they did have exactly the same 'clues' as the viewers at home on solving it though. Even though I can't remember if I figured it out prior to reading on it...I do recall at the time it was done, I didn't know how it was done and it looked impressive.

(And I like Copperfield too, saw him in Vegas and who didn't have a crush on him at some point? hehe)

 

[Darat]

But he does this by cheating for Chr*st sake! He implies that he achieves a lot of what he does by psychological manipulation. People think . ."hmmm . .I would have thought that this could only be achieved by paranormal powers. Therefore on previous occasions when I thought something was a paranormal effect, it might have simply been psychological manipulation also".

But we now find out that perhaps everything he does is trickery and has nothing to do with psychological manipulation.

This means that he's dishonestly influencing people to become skeptics!

That's right now people can think "hmmm . .I would have thought that this could only be achieved by paranormal powers. Therefore on previous occasions when I thought something was a paranormal effect, it might have simply been a trick"

 

[LillyThePink]

But he does this by cheating for Chr*st sake! He implies that he achieves a lot of what he does by psychological manipulation. People think . ."hmmm . .I would have thought that this could only be achieved by paranormal powers. Therefore on previous occasions when I thought something was a paranormal effect, it might have simply been psychological manipulation also".

But we now find out that perhaps everything he does is trickery and has nothing to do with psychological manipulation.

This means that he's dishonestly influencing people to become skeptics!

As opposed to those psychics who use the same cold reading/hot reading techniques, but con people into believing that their dead relatives have forgotten all but the first letter of their name??

Ian, that is one of the funniest things I have EVER read. I hope you're not on a football team if you're missing the point that badly. Bless you for the entertainment value.

 

[Undodog]

And your point being what? That he dressed up an old trick and resold it to his audience? If that is bad then many, many magicians better watch out!

At no time does he tell us how he is about to perform a trick, he uses misdirection and showmanship just like every other magician.

Yes he does and he is excellent at it. BUT people come away miseducated about the human mind's suggestability (is that a word?). Thats my problem with Derren.
Even people here are falling for it. Ask a magician how the letter-trick was done.
Its a very cleverly original format that he has but thats ALL it is. Its not suggestion it is just old tricks repackaged.
Great entertainment but its not real and I don't think it will be long before the fraudsters start using this new package as a means to rip people off and we'll be posting links to 'Psychic Suggestionists' and such.

 

[Interesting Ian]

Yes, but the point I'm making is that he MAY be misrepresenting things as psychological techniques that aren't. For example, he may be cheating/hot reading, and presenting it as if he's "getting it" on his own.

I'm reminded, for example, of the presentation at TAM1 by (I think it was) Jami Ian Swiss. I wasn't there, but the description was that he did a card trick and presented it (successfully) to his audience as an amazing feat of mentalism/use of psychology, etc.

Let's say that I have a shill in the audience and I (amazingly) reveal personal information about that person. I tell you, sitting in the audience, that my statements were due to "mind powers"--psychology, charisma, directing their attention the way I want, being observant, etc. Except that...it wasn't. It was a cheat because I had information ahead of time.

I don't know if Brown cheats or not. But cheating and then presenting it as "using mentalism and psychology, etc" would still be cheating--and be giving a false impression of the capabilities of "mentalism, psychology, etc." [/B]

Yes absolutely. I couldn't agree more. You demonstrate a great deal more intelligence and sense than the vast majority of people on here.

 

[Darat]

Yes he does and he is excellent at it. BUT people come away miseducated about the human mind's suggestability (is that a word?). Thats my problem with Derren.
Even people here are falling for it. Ask a magician how the letter-trick was done.
Its a very cleverly original format that he has but thats ALL it is. Its not suggestion it is just old tricks repackaged.
Great entertainment but its not real and I don't think it will be long before the fraudsters start using this new package as a means to rip people off and we'll be posting links to 'Psychic Suggestionists' and such.

"miseducated"? - He's an entertainer with a format for his shows. If shows and entertainment have to start being accurate and to leave us with the right educational message we are going to be in a very sad state!

Magicians have always left their audience bewildered and wondering how it was done, and hopefully guessing wrong; that I think is part of the appeal of these shows, trying to look behind the curtain. The best magicians are the ones that lead you up a path to one “solution” and then at the last minute turn it on its head and leave you going “but…”.

I don’t see anymore in Derren Brown then a Copperfield or an Ali Bongo or even Paul Daniels - they all “lie” to me - they all try and make me think something that isn’t possible is possible and the best of them entertain me.

 

[Tanja]

Going off memory with that specific trick (and without giving it away, though you could probably google today how that trick was done, I read it in a book personally) the statue was shown all lit up, then the 'curtain' went up, blocking the statue from the view of the audience as well as the viewers at home. The rest of the show was various other magic tricks, then at some point the curtain was removed and the statue was vanished. Then the curtain was placed back up, more tricks, then the statue was back again before the end of the show.

What I heard was different (select text to view spoiler): [COLOR=f7f7f7]I heard it involved a rotating stage. All the audience and the magician were on the rotating stage, positioned first so that the large object (tank or Statue of Liberty, whatever) is in full view, lit up. Then they put a dark screen preventing the view, and rotate the whole stage, with the magician and audience on it, so that something else is behind the screen when they remove it. In this case, the audience obviously knows how the trick is done[/COLOR]. Am I going to be shot now in a magicians' vendetta?

(And I like Copperfield too, saw him in Vegas and who didn't have a crush on him at some point? hehe)

 

[Undodog]

Did you see the "Mind Control" programme where he got a bunch of advertising execs to draw EXACTLY what he wanted, and explained how it was done subliminally? Thats psychological suggestion, Ian, not trickery.

Again. This example is what confuses most people. The whole bit about placing objects/pictures..etc around the ad people's taxi ride was ALL A LIE (magician's patter). Its ages since this was on but at the time I noticed that the camera never cleanly pans from the guys in the taxi to something Derren placed outside. They were edited in.
You saw a very old trick you MUST have seen before presented in an original way.
"Draw me a picture - Here is what I drew earlier, in a sealed envelope." Come on!
Why are people falling for this? I thought we had some critical thinking here.

 

[Lothian]

Yes he does and he is excellent at it. BUT people come away miseducated about the human mind's suggestability (is that a word?). Thats my problem with Derren.
Even people here are falling for it. Ask a magician how the letter-trick was done.
Its a very cleverly original format that he has but thats ALL it is. Its not suggestion it is just old tricks repackaged.
Great entertainment but its not real and I don't think it will be long before the fraudsters start using this new package as a means to rip people off and we'll be posting links to 'Psychic Suggestionists' and such.

Repeat after me Toast, toaster, toast, toaster, toast, toaster, toast, toaster, toast, toaster.

Now what do you put in a toaster ?

The human mind is subject to suggestion. Does Derren use that at all in any trick he does, probably. Does he use it in every trick ? No.

 

[Interesting Ian]

I don't understand how people can class what Brown does as "cheating".

Read my posts. If you still don't understand, then you're a lost cause. Like the majority of people on here.

 

[richardm]

But he does this by cheating for Chr*st sake! He implies that he achieves a lot of what he does by psychological manipulation.
...
But we now find out that perhaps everything he does is trickery and has nothing to do with psychological manipulation.

Two points: First of all, this is just another type of misdirection. If you're watching and listening carefully for subtle clues, you're likely to miss the point where he slips the grapefruit under the cup (as it were).

Secondly, a good number of the tricks he does are based on psychological manipulation. There's no two ways about it - I've read some of the stuff he's published, and there are some good things in there such as how to make someone pick a particular card in their head, by talking to them at length. The book was written before the Mind Control series began, and it's not hard to see how you could develop those ideas. In fact, I'd suggest that the Supermarket designer who toddled off to get a bottle of vinegar is a good example of those tactics in action.

At the same time, the book has a good number of card tricks in it, some with a psychological window-dressing, some not.

 

[Darat]

..snip...

Why are people falling for this? I thought we had some critical thinking here.

Because he is a good magician?

 

[Undodog]

I don’t see anymore in Derren Brown then a Copperfield or an Ali Bongo or even Paul Daniels - they all “lie” to me - they all try and make me think something that isn’t possible is possible and the best of them entertain me.

Yeah fair enough, I think the problem lies with me getting wound up at people (around my office) spouting thier pub-knowledge about 'it must be real cos thats how advertising works'.

 

[Interesting Ian]

Interesting Ian

If Brown is a cheat for not using live ammunition (at that range a blank would have done the job, really), then is David Copperfield a cheat for not using a real giant buzzsaw?

Please explain the difference?

And I saw him at the Opera House York.

There was never any suggestion that he wasn't using live ammunition. This should have been made explicit upfront.