Former conspiracy believer here

[gumboot]

I tried to point out the small increments of time involved from one incident to the next, and the total confusion that reigned, but that wasn't good enough.

One of the interesting things you notice, looking at the combined FAA/NORAD response, (and all associated government groups) is that it was like a snowball.

An incident would occur, and the machine would start responding, but before the response was in place something else would occur, and the machine would start responding to that, but would be slowed by the first response. Then something else happened and it was slowed even more by the other two responses, and on and on, until it was a huge chaotic mess.

I think this is an important thing to emphasise. It's easy, in hindsight, to see they were just dealing with four hijacked airliners. But that's not what NORAD and the FAA had to deal with. On the day they were faced with literally dozens of suspected hijackings as well as 4,000 other airliners.

-Gumboot

 

[A W Smith]

i dont even know what im reading when i open this thread.

this thread has become cluttered with random topics having nothing to do with the OP. so
how do you report an entire thread?

 

[Sabrina]

One of the interesting things you notice, looking at the combined FAA/NORAD response, (and all associated government groups) is that it was like a snowball.

An incident would occur, and the machine would start responding, but before the response was in place something else would occur, and the machine would start responding to that, but would be slowed by the first response. Then something else happened and it was slowed even more by the other two responses, and on and on, until it was a huge chaotic mess.

I think this is an important thing to emphasise. It's easy, in hindsight, to see they were just dealing with four hijacked airliners. But that's not what NORAD and the FAA had to deal with. On the day they were faced with literally dozens of suspected hijackings as well as 4,000 other airliners.

-Gumboot

A good example; having to land as quickly and safely as possible the remaining non-hijacked aircraft while sorting out the false hijackings from the real ones. The fact that all remaining aircraft landed with no accidents is a testament to the capabilities of the FAA. And as you've already stated, Gumboot, NORAD by the end of the day had an entire defense operation underway, an amazing accomplishment considering the unprecedented nature of the attack.

 

[holycanoli]

A good example; having to land as quickly and safely as possible the remaining non-hijacked aircraft while sorting out the false hijackings from the real ones. The fact that all remaining aircraft landed with no accidents is a testament to the capabilities of the FAA. And as you've already stated, Gumboot, NORAD by the end of the day had an entire defense operation underway, an amazing accomplishment considering the unprecedented nature of the attack.

AND...nobody woke up that morning thinking they were going to have to do that which is further testament.

 

[holycanoli]

Yet your posts already show you would have completely over reacted to a situation and not followed SOP's on the day in question? You also talk from a postion of not understanding anything about getting aircraft in the air with full weapons loads and the timescales involved?

If you do ever have a large emergency in South Texas I hope you stop and think about your actions rather than going off half cocked as you would have done on 911. Someone like that is the last person you would want to control a real emergency IMO.

From someone who has already told someone here they "have issues" I will read the hypocrisy into the statement that it deserves

Yeah, the SOPs at the time worked really well didn't they? I think you'd probably have 3,000 or so peope who would stringently disagree if they wern't dead. Unbelieveable.

In this day and age of agressive terrorism, if you're not thinking outside of the box, I hope you're comfortable being buried in one. Go ahead and keep reading the SOPs during the next attack.

Set your mind at rest about my "controlling" an emergency by the way (although it would be sort of wonderful if one could actually "control" and emergency . I'm on the team, a big part of the team to be sure but the ICS has 4 branches in the general staff and a command staff. One of the branches is mine pretty much and we're walking around ready to go as soon as the call comes in on my branch.

As for my saying that guy had "issues" it's pretty apparent that when the comparison is drawn from "who would I blame if a meteor hit LA?" to the allowance of four planes to be hi-jacked, hit 75 percent of their targets and save for the heroic efforts of men and women of uncommon valor on United Flight 93, we can almost be sure that the fourth one would have hit; you've got to wonder about the seriousness of the question. What was I supposed to have answered, "Harry Stamper?" The question was ludicrous and saying that he had "issues" was perhaps the most humane way to treat such a silly question.

 

[tsig]

Okay, I'm going to have to explain this analogy to you, it seems.

You're essentially looking for a scapegoat. Aside from the hijackers, nobody planned 9/11. The only responsibility that remains is possible negligence, but as indicated before (the part you ignored when you said I "got issues") was that western civilisation has grown lax. We're not a police state, either in Canada, the US or most of Europe. Obviously, this creates security problems.

What I was trying to say is that the responsibility is ours. All of us. Our way of life is what made 9/11 possible.

The meteor analogy was simply to illustrate that some people, apparently, will always try to blame someone for their ills. But it's not always that simple.

Is that clearer, now, or do I still "got issues" ?

Belz you know that it is evildoers inspired by you who brought the comet. God hated to do it but the evil gave him no choice.

The just got their reward, maybe a bit sooner than expected but god caught you napping then didn't he.

If you say the comet never happened... well "Father of Lies" and all that.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Yeah, the SOPs at the time worked really well didn't they? I think you'd probably have 3,000 or so peope who would stringently disagree if they wern't dead. Unbelieveable.

Your powers of hindsight are all but supernatural.

How's your foresight? In the case of an Ebola epidemic hitting Southern California, which SOPs will it be prudent to break?

 

[holycanoli]

Okay, I'm going to have to explain this analogy to you, it seems.

You're essentially looking for a scapegoat. Aside from the hijackers, nobody planned 9/11. The only responsibility that remains is possible negligence, but as indicated before (the part you ignored when you said I "got issues") was that western civilisation has grown lax. We're not a police state, either in Canada, the US or most of Europe. Obviously, this creates security problems.

What I was trying to say is that the responsibility is ours. All of us. Our way of life is what made 9/11 possible.

The meteor analogy was simply to illustrate that some people, apparently, will always try to blame someone for their ills. But it's not always that simple.

Is that clearer, now, or do I still "got issues" ?

The silly analogy belies a serious comment--why didn't you just say so.

Blaming Western Civilization is rather obtuse.

As for scapegoating, utter nonsense. I think there is accountability issues with the Bush administration and they fail to hold those entrusted with their duties accountable for their failure to follow through and usurp the appointees that do their jobs. "You're doing a great job, Brownie." is followed by Bush pardoning Scooter Libby after a federal judge--a Bush Appointee--sentences him to go to prison.

 

[tsig]

Yeah, the SOPs at the time worked really well didn't they? I think you'd probably have 3,000 or so peope who would stringently disagree if they wern't dead. Unbelieveable.

In this day and age of agressive terrorism, if you're not thinking outside of the box, I hope you're comfortable being buried in one. Go ahead and keep reading the SOPs during the next attack.

Set your mind at rest about my "controlling" an emergency by the way (although it would be sort of wonderful if one could actually "control" and emergency . I'm on the team, a big part of the team to be sure but the ICS has 4 branches in the general staff and a command staff. One of the branches is mine pretty much and we're walking around ready to go as soon as the call comes in on my branch.

As for my saying that guy had "issues" it's pretty apparent that when the comparison is drawn from "who would I blame if a meteor hit LA?" to the allowance of four planes to be hi-jacked, hit 75 percent of their targets and save for the heroic efforts of men and women of uncommon valor on United Flight 93, we can almost be sure that the fourth one would have hit; you've got to wonder about the seriousness of the question. What was I supposed to have answered, "Harry Stamper?" The question was ludicrous and saying that he had "issues" was perhaps the most humane way to treat such a silly question.

Nothing here but personal incredulity.

Just how do you scramble non-existent planes at impossible-to-reach speeds directly to unknown targets?

 

[holycanoli]

Nothing here but personal incredulity.

Just how do you scramble non-existent planes at impossible-to-reach speeds directly to unknown targets?

What?

The planes existed. They were on their way to the Pentagon according to CNN. They were 12 minutes late. Look at the CNN Timeline if you don't believe me.

 

[holycanoli]

Your powers of hindsight are all but supernatural.

How's your foresight? In the case of an Ebola epidemic hitting Southern California, which SOPs will it be prudent to break?

I'm in South Texas.

Which SOP? There are numerous SOPs but given my experience, I think the first one to go will be patient histories being taken and the subsequent interview with clinical staff.

The prophilaxis for ebola is Cipro. The idea is to have patient information taken looking at medical histories and such. It isn't good for certain conditions (such like pregnancy I guess). The SOP is to have an orderly dispension of these pills after consultations.

If the dispension stalls and it looks as though administering prophilaxis to the entire at risk population within 48 hours isn't going to happen, you suspend the SOP of patient histories and hit the "high lights" asking "are you pregant" before simply handing over the packet of pills.

Rough. Crude. Possibly deadly.

But you try to do what is best for the most people. Carnival dispensing as it is sometimes called may be what is called for if the dispensing is stalled due to any number of issues (weather, persons leaving their sector and seeking assistance somewhere else thus overwhelming one point of dispensing).

That is one SOP I think is going to be broken. It may seem wreckless but it may be the proverbial "bad idea whose time has come."

Another will be the rally model for dispensing. One idea (I'm not sure what SOCAL has up it's sleeve) is to have people show up at one point and then assign them to a bus to take them to a secure location. The thought is that if you have a bunch of non-English speakers self-present, you can put them on a bus to go to where a presumably spanish-speaking staff has set up shop. Anglos or even Chinese-Americans may be sent to other areas (won't the conspiracy boys at loosechange911 have a field day with that as far as some not getting as much assistance as others because there will be process variables that get in the way at one POD or another). If there is the assumed chaos at the assignment site, the call may go out to simply have people drive themselves to the secure site directly.

Hopefully the foresight won't come true. The difference between the 9/11 attacks and this attack scenario (Ebola in SOCAL) are like night and day.

 

[funk de fino]

Yeah, the SOPs at the time worked really well didn't they? I think you'd probably have 3,000 or so peope who would stringently disagree if they wern't dead. Unbelieveable.

In this day and age of agressive terrorism, if you're not thinking outside of the box, I hope you're comfortable being buried in one. Go ahead and keep reading the SOPs during the next attack.

At the time is the big factor here. The attacks were unprecendented. You have hindsight. Its is easy for you. The terrorism and hijackings were completely different than any before and in fact since.

You really have no idea what you are talking about. You are not thinking outside of the box you are setting the box on fire with yourself still inside it.

People acted outwith the SOP on the day when it became clear this was something unusual and it still did not help those people you so pathetically bring up.

Set your mind at rest about my "controlling" an emergency by the way (although it would be sort of wonderful if one could actually "control" and emergency . I'm on the team, a big part of the team to be sure but the ICS has 4 branches in the general staff and a command staff. One of the branches is mine pretty much and we're walking around ready to go as soon as the call comes in on my branch.

As for my saying that guy had "issues" it's pretty apparent that when the comparison is drawn from "who would I blame if a meteor hit LA?" to the allowance of four planes to be hi-jacked, hit 75 percent of their targets and save for the heroic efforts of men and women of uncommon valor on United Flight 93, we can almost be sure that the fourth one would have hit; you've got to wonder about the seriousness of the question. What was I supposed to have answered, "Harry Stamper?" The question was ludicrous and saying that he had "issues" was perhaps the most humane way to treat such a silly question.

So, you are a minion, and will always remain so if your actions follow your reasoning on here. You were supposed to say that unthinkable things happen sometimes that cannot always be accounted for and only with hindsight can we try to stop them happening again. Till the next one.

 

[Dr Adequate]

I'm in South Texas.

Oops, slip of the brain.

 

[beachnut]

Yeah, the SOPs at the time worked really well didn't they? I think you'd probably have 3,000 or so peope who would stringently disagree if they wern't dead. Unbelieveable.

In this day and age of agressive terrorism, if you're not thinking outside of the box, I hope you're comfortable being buried in one. Go ahead and keep reading the SOPs during the next attack.

Set your mind at rest about my "controlling" an emergency by the way (although it would be sort of wonderful if one could actually "control" and emergency . I'm on the team, a big part of the team to be sure but the ICS has 4 branches in the general staff and a command staff. One of the branches is mine pretty much and we're walking around ready to go as soon as the call comes in on my branch.

As for my saying that guy had "issues" it's pretty apparent that when the comparison is drawn from "who would I blame if a meteor hit LA?" to the allowance of four planes to be hi-jacked, hit 75 percent of their targets and save for the heroic efforts of men and women of uncommon valor on United Flight 93, we can almost be sure that the fourth one would have hit; you've got to wonder about the seriousness of the question. What was I supposed to have answered, "Harry Stamper?" The question was ludicrous and saying that he had "issues" was perhaps the most humane way to treat such a silly question.

Funny stuff. I see you will never have an accident or be hurt by anyone on purpose. I expect you have a neck guard to keep throat cutting terrorist from killing you. You must share your perfect world instruction manual with the rest of the world. Plus you need to pick up the million dollars for being able to see things before they happen and take the correct action to prevent all unknowns from doing you in.

I know you are not prepared for everything, you just don't know it yet. It is a long fall; be prepared, but don't worry you are not prepared so relax, you will never see it coming.
The time to figure out 9/11 is shown exactly to the minute with flight 93 passengers. You can make up all the BS you want, there are infinite things you are not prepared for. Take your pick.

Since you think NORAD should have been able to shoot down an airliner before it was known what the airliner was doing, you are to blame. I blame you because you failed to tell everyone NORAD was not ready for a threat you say was big and you would have been ready. This is what you imply with your "I'm ready for anything" BS.

the box stuff, is classic BS; FAA and NORAD did the outside the BOX from the start; you missed it

 

[funk de fino]

What?

The planes existed. They were on their way to the Pentagon according to CNN. They were 12 minutes late. Look at the CNN Timeline if you don't believe me.

Please tell me you do not mean what you have posted?

What planes do you think were non existant?

Clue - The hundreds of ready to fly and fully fuelled and armed ones you wanted over the Capitol within minutes

Come on sunshine think outside the box

 

[chipmunk stew]

In this day and age of agressive terrorism, if you're not thinking outside of the box, I hope you're comfortable being buried in one.

That's silly. The chances of being killed in an act of terrorism are exceedingly slim, even in a country like Israel. More people are killed in the US by homicide in a month than are killed globally by terrorism in a year. And homicide is the cause of less than 1% of American deaths annually.

We certainly need to maintain pressure and vigilence against terrorism, but let's also maintain our perspective.

 

[gumboot]

What?

The planes existed. They were on their way to the Pentagon according to CNN. They were 12 minutes late. Look at the CNN Timeline if you don't believe me.

Do you realise the CNN timeline is wrong?

-Gumboot

 

[Jennie C.]

A good example; having to land as quickly and safely as possible the remaining non-hijacked aircraft while sorting out the false hijackings from the real ones. The fact that all remaining aircraft landed with no accidents is a testament to the capabilities of the FAA. And as you've already stated, Gumboot, NORAD by the end of the day had an entire defense operation underway, an amazing accomplishment considering the unprecedented nature of the attack.

In fact, one of the things that impressed me at the time was that they managed to get those 4000+ airplanes down on the ground, wherever, in about 2 hours with NO ACCIDENTS.

 

[Architect]

He apparently doesn't get around much. The last 4 highrise buildings I've worked on were all constructed out of steel-reinforced concrete. Not a single steel frame among them.

You are correct, my last design was in-situ r.c. because of the increase in steel prices thanks to the Chinese market, likewise most of the UK tower blocks of the 1960s and 70s are p.c. or in-situ concrete.

Just as an aside, I'm going to be narky and point out that nobody in construction would actually call it "steel reinforced concrete". What the heck else would you reinforce it with - wool?

 

[Jennie C.]

Please take a seat on the "Group W" bench over there, Jennie C. There are a few interesting people there you'll want to meet.

Oh look!! Father-rapers