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Former conspiracy believer here

Just make sure you don't read any modern critical histories of the activities of the World Bank and IMF....or all those nasty feelings might start coming back again!
The World Bank planned 9/11! It's all so clear now!

[whap!]

Thanks, I needed that. :boggled:

Are there good reasons why so many truthers seem so obsessed with the idea that the WTC was blown up? There's no motive established that I've seen. I've yet to see any good evidence to suggest that this happened, and I've been into the CT scene, as a believer, since several years before 911. I don't get it. Why do they so obsessively follow such an idiotic theory? I need reasons!
Why do they obsessively follow idiotic theories? Maybe because they are obsessive idiots? Just a thought.

To us oldtime truthers, we know the NWO has been up to all sorts of nonsense for decades. The cia were all over the Afghanistan crime and terrorism scene for years. They could set up a terrorist cell to take out WTC like snapping their fingers. God, I could do it myself if I was that ****ed up. Who in god's name would want to blow the towers up and fly planes into them? You guys are bringing this business into disrepute! I'd say it was a conspiracy but I don't believe in them.
"Stop it! You obsessive idiots are making us obsessive idiots look like obsessive idiots! Anyway, I don't believe in conspiracies, so you're wrong. P.S. The World Bank planned 9/11."
 
Are you kidding me? Do your research. There's any number of theories as to how and why WTC 7 needed to be demo'd.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94103

Also, you never bothered answering that post about Willie Rodriquez and his acceptance of the official story for three years until he got mad at the 9/11 commission and started to drastically change his story. Very odd, since you did enjoy citing Willie's comments, but only the post 9/11 commission tiff comments.
 
I posted the link in my address bar and it worked great. Excellent information there.

FYI, one of the links that will supposedly take you to more investigative undertakings is actually a link to "adultfriendfinder . com?"
 
You didn't scrutinize the content of my OP. You just accused me of completely fabricating the story, i.e. you accused me of being a liar. If you're an honest, decent individual, you will own up and apologize. Or you can go on calling me a liar. I honestly don't care. You've lost all respect and credibility in my eyes. But don't expect any more responses from me until I get an apology for these posts:

Your first post in this thread:

Your second post:

Some more:

I apologize if you took anything I said personally. I try to argue the post, not the poster. Notice I said, "this is an obvious work." You've translated that as "you are a liar."

But please don't expect that I'll be any less ruthless than anyone else here. I'm sticking to my position Thou dost protest too much, methinks.
 
I apologize if you took anything I said personally. I try to argue the post, not the poster. Notice I said, "this is an obvious work." You've translated that as "you are a liar."

But please don't expect that I'll be any less ruthless than anyone else here. I'm sticking to my position Thou dost protest too much, methinks.

Amazing.

The Truth Movement is legendary for its ability to "just ask questions." This is, of course, exactly what a prosecuting attorney does when he wants to inject some tangential suspicion in the minds of the jury when he has no knowledge, no facts at all, but it merely speculating. He asks a random question: "Have you stopped beating your wife?" ...and upon objection, quickly withdraws his question, satisfied to leave it unanswered.

The question, in this respect, is a rhetorical cheat. It allows the questioner to blame or cast doubt while retaining a veneer of deniability. "Why, your honor, I never actually said that he beat his wife."

It is hardly surprising to see you applying this tactic, universal to the Truth Movement, to a new poster here. It is also reprehensible.

However, it's gratifying to see you get your comeuppance. You're being destroyed by a rookie. There's no need to dig into our vast arsenal of facts, analyses, interviews, reports, or papers, the fruits of almost two years opposing the Truth Movement. It seems that Diagoras has got you pinned with the simplest tenets of logic.

Next time, don't be so quick to accuse others, unless you know what you're talking about. Words to live by.
 
to help you out... with some facts

I apologize if you took anything I said personally. I try to argue the post, not the poster. Notice I said, "this is an obvious work." You've translated that as "you are a liar."

But please don't expect that I'll be any less ruthless than anyone else here. I'm sticking to my position Thou dost protest too much, methinks.
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks" (queen, W.S.)

No one asked you. Again, you are posting and have missed the fact, no one aked you, making your cute quote statement out of context. Must be some CT. Redo.

And, when can we expect this kind of OP from you? Why not just say you are sorry, you did not mean to call him a liar?
 
To be honest the above comment doesn't make any sense, but I'd like to clear up a few things. First a minor nitpick, a 757 is not a jumbo jet.

Fair enough.

AA77 is in some ways the most interesting of the four flights on 9/11. It was hijacked for the longest period of time, and yet the military had the least period of time for intercepting it.

Here's why.

The FAA uses two types of radar - primary and secondary. Primary radar coverage is a physical return on the actual skin of the aircraft itself.

The other type is secondary radar. Secondary radar is the return from an interrogation of the aircraft's transponder - a device that transmits the aircraft's flight code, heading, altitude and speed.

The FAA's Air Route Traffic Control Centres (ARTCC), on a normal daily basis use Secondary Radar. There's a few reasons for this. Firstly, primary radar picks up every single aircraft in the air, and also picks up things like cloud formations. This makes the screen very busy and hard to follow. Secondly, FAA regulations require that all aircraft flying at cruising altitudes (which is the airspace ARTCC's manage) have a transponder and radio. So there's no reason to use primary.

Another problem with primary is it doesn't tell you the identity of the aircraft. and finally, primary coverage is not 100%. There are gaps in the coverage all across the USA.

Now, the big problem with secondary radar is that an aircraft's transponder can be turned off with the flick of a switch, and that's exactly what the hijackers did on 9/11. This isn't a problem if the aircraft transponder is turned off in an area with primary radar coverage - the traffic controller simply flicks a switch to turn on their primary radar display, and the primary contact will appear right where the secondary return just vanished.

The problem is, AA77 was hijacked in a part of the country with no primary cover. When the controller got a full loss of signal and radio communication they made the reasonable and appropriate decision that AA77 had suffered a catastrophic mid air break up and had gone down. Bear in mind that only the eastern ARTCC's knew anything was amiss in the US that day. Indianapolis Centre - where AA77 vanished - knew nothing of the other hijacked aircraft.

The centre began looking west along AA77's flight path for the aircraft to come up again, and asked for the military to start Search and Rescue operations. Meanwhile AA77 had turned around and was heading east, and no one had any idea.

It wasn't until about 9.20 that the FAA began spreading the word to other ARTCC's that hijackings were in progress. At this point, with no AA77 in sight and no wreckage, the supervisor at Indianapolis Centre began to suspect AA77 might also be a hijack. But by now AA77 was in Washington ARTCC's airspace, and they knew nothing about the missing aircraft.

With the likelihood of AA77 being a hijacking continuing, the FAA began searching east, and Washington ARTCC started searching their unidentified primary returns.

At then at 0934, Dulles TRACON picked up an unknown radar contact moving low and fast over Washington DC. That was the first time since the hijacking that anyone had located the flight on a radar. It was too late. Three minutes later it hit the Pentagon.

Well written and well explained.


In seconds? Really? And where were these jets to come from? Why Washington DC? What indication was there that the capital was a target?

Are you telling me that the seat of our government was incapable of being defended from the air? In my view--and this is strictly my view--any wargaming scenario that leaves the seat of our government unprotected is grounds for dismissal if it comes from an official position. Let alone that the WTC North tower had been hit at 8:46 AM (45 minutes prior to the Pentagon hit or so). Flight 175 had been hi-jacked (reported to NORAD according to CNN at 8:43--48 minutes prior to impact). And you're telling me that the most powerful military apparatus in the history of bipeds cannot put some airplanes over it's most vital assets?

If you are saying that is the case, I'll bow to your obvious greater knowledge--you've demonstrated excellent understanding and the ability to explain these matters in a very clear and understandable way. I truly appreciate your ability to explain things to silly old me without patronizing me.

That having been said, the military in place had 48 minutes to get something--anything above the capital even for ramming purposes, two attacks into high value civilian targets, let alone the "system flashing red" a month or so before the attacks and the response was to field nothing?

In my view, that is nothing less than a dereliction of duty at the highest levels of either or military, government or both.


The only people you could even possibly entertain punishing would be the US Congress, who decided to drastically reduce NORAD's resources after the end of the Cold War.

I disagree.

You have to appreciate that maintaining readiness levels is prohibitively expensive. It's simply not sustainable. That's the reason for the various military DEFCON levels. If tensions increased between the USA and Russia, for example, the DEFCON level would be raised, and as part of that additional resources would be allocated to things like air defense. You have to remember, NORAD's peace time role was very small. In the event of a large scale attack a plan was in place that would put thousands of fighters in the air with AWACS support. But such a plan can't be activated in a few hours, and certainly not from DEFCON 5.

Fair enough. But we fielded nothing in the way of attack aircraft to the best of my knowledge.


Really? Are you sure about that?--link deleted

Yes, I am.

You were speaking of a single small plane. Not four large commercial aircraft with two highly publicized attacks on critical financial infastructure targets. If you had told me that planes had crashed into the Kremlin, Kiev and then a plan just waltzed into Red Square, I'd agree with you but I feel that you are comparing apples to oranges in this one case.

Again. I am absolutely not stating that there was some sort of foul play involved. There was sheer chaos on that morning and lord knows I was scared at the time. Who knew what was going to be hit next.

But I think that no senior military or government officials have been punished after preventing any of the attacks and reliance upon a bunch of passengers with silverware to defend our country is inexcusable regardless of budget cutbacks. Leaving the capitol undefended while having fighters based in Clear Lake, Texas is flat out nuts.
 
Not ideas, facts and evidence. You bring ideas when you should bring facts since this is an event, not religion. You have to have facts and evidence to support your ideas, but I have not seen you present many ideas on 9/11, usually you just ask questions which reminds me of LC.

Remember LC, they use to sell lies about 9/11.
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/12447460d8430f0ca9.jpg[/qimg]
Knowledge could help cure this 9/11 truth problem.

Be nice.
 
Fair enough.



Well written and well explained.




Are you telling me that the seat of our government was incapable of being defended from the air? In my view--and this is strictly my view--any wargaming scenario that leaves the seat of our government unprotected is grounds for dismissal if it comes from an official position. Let alone that the WTC North tower had been hit at 8:46 AM (45 minutes prior to the Pentagon hit or so). Flight 175 had been hi-jacked (reported to NORAD according to CNN at 8:43--48 minutes prior to impact). And you're telling me that the most powerful military apparatus in the history of bipeds cannot put some airplanes over it's most vital assets?

If you are saying that is the case, I'll bow to your obvious greater knowledge--you've demonstrated excellent understanding and the ability to explain these matters in a very clear and understandable way. I truly appreciate your ability to explain things to silly old me without patronizing me.

That having been said, the military in place had 48 minutes to get something--anything above the capital even for ramming purposes, two attacks into high value civilian targets, let alone the "system flashing red" a month or so before the attacks and the response was to field nothing?

In my view, that is nothing less than a dereliction of duty at the highest levels of either or military, government or both.




I disagree.



Fair enough. But we fielded nothing in the way of attack aircraft to the best of my knowledge.




Yes, I am.

You were speaking of a single small plane. Not four large commercial aircraft with two highly publicized attacks on critical financial infastructure targets. If you had told me that planes had crashed into the Kremlin, Kiev and then a plan just waltzed into Red Square, I'd agree with you but I feel that you are comparing apples to oranges in this one case.

Again. I am absolutely not stating that there was some sort of foul play involved. There was sheer chaos on that morning and lord knows I was scared at the time. Who knew what was going to be hit next.

But I think that no senior military or government officials have been punished after preventing any of the attacks and reliance upon a bunch of passengers with silverware to defend our country is inexcusable regardless of budget cutbacks. Leaving the capitol undefended while having fighters based in Clear Lake, Texas is flat out nuts.

Your beliefs, wishes and desires have nothing to do with what actually happened.

Just how do fighters in Texas guard the capital?

I'm sure that if you were in charge none of this would have happened.

Our bad luck you lost the last election.
 
Are you telling me that the seat of our government was incapable of being defended from the air? In my view--and this is strictly my view--any wargaming scenario that leaves the seat of our government unprotected is grounds for dismissal if it comes from an official position.

At short notice? Yes. There's no such thing as 100% protection. A peace-time domestic-originating threat to the Capitol, from the air, was not considered likely. The cost of maintaining protection for such a highly unlikely threat would be enormous. The military does not have endless funds.


Let alone that the WTC North tower had been hit at 8:46 AM (45 minutes prior to the Pentagon hit or so).

Until 0903 no one on the ground had any idea the US was facing a coordinated terrorist attack. At that time all strikes had been against New York. It was not until 0921 that the military or FAA had any notion that Washington DC might be a target.


Flight 175 had been hi-jacked (reported to NORAD according to CNN at 8:43--48 minutes prior to impact).

NORAD were not notified of the hijacking of UA175 until 0903:

09:03:17
ROUNDTREE: They have a second possible hijack!


And you're telling me that the most powerful military apparatus in the history of bipeds cannot put some airplanes over it's most vital assets?

The United States military's power is in force projection - their ability to bring military power to any corner of the globe within a matter of days. Most of their operational military assets are focused on this role - carrier task groups, Marine expeditionary forces, the 82nd Airborne, special operations, and so forth.

NORAD has two roles - a relatively minor peace time role and a much more extensive role in the event of a full scale attack. The 9/11 attacks fell between these two - a peace time, domestic originated, small scale attack. NORAD were not designed to deal with that sort of threat, and were not capable of dealing with it.

As for "vital assets", I would say the US military's most vital assets are their carrier battle groups, all of which are protected 24/7 by a fighter CAP. None of the US military's major commands are based at the Pentagon.



That having been said, the military in place had 48 minutes to get something--anything above the capital even for ramming purposes, two attacks into high value civilian targets, let alone the "system flashing red" a month or so before the attacks and the response was to field nothing?

I don't think you understand the impossibility of what you're expecting to have happened. NORAD had two pairs of fighters to cover the entire north east sea board. Their role in hijackings was strictly limited to escort and observation duties.

I don't know where your 48 minutes comes from, but 0921 was the first time NORAD had any awareness that Washington DC might be a target. That's not 48 minutes warning, that's 16 minutes warning. NORAD duties required aircraft to be airbourne 15 minutes after a scramble was issued. Find me a fighter that can fly from Langley to Washington DC, locate and intercept a low-level airliner travelling at 400MPH, ascertain that airliner has hostile intent, engage the airliner and shoot it down, all in 60 seconds, and you may have a point.



In my view, that is nothing less than a dereliction of duty at the highest levels of either or military, government or both.

In my view you're letting you Hollywood-informed expectations cloud your understanding of how the real world operates.


I disagree.

It was Congress that clipped NORAD's wings.


Fair enough. But we fielded nothing in the way of attack aircraft to the best of my knowledge.

NORAD had five fighters in the air less than an hour after they knew something was happening. By two hours, there were CAPs over New York City and Washington DC with as many as a dozen fighters airbourne.

By mid afternoon NORAD had 300 fighters in the air supported by AWACS and tankers, had implemented a modified version of the wartime SCATANA Plan, and had CAPs over every major US city.

I don't think you appreciate just how phenomenal an achievement that was.


Yes, I am.

You were speaking of a single small plane. Not four large commercial aircraft with two highly publicized attacks on critical financial infastructure targets. If you had told me that planes had crashed into the Kremlin, Kiev and then a plan just waltzed into Red Square, I'd agree with you but I feel that you are comparing apples to oranges in this one case.


Nonsense. This Cessna penetrated Soviet airspace from outside. The aircraft on 9/11 didn't even have to do that. Secondly, the Russians protected their airspace much more harshly than the US does. Simply compare the number of commercial airliners the Russians have shot down for entering their airspace unannounced with the number the US has shot down.


Again. I am absolutely not stating that there was some sort of foul play involved. There was sheer chaos on that morning and lord knows I was scared at the time. Who knew what was going to be hit next.

But I think that no senior military or government officials have been punished after preventing any of the attacks and reliance upon a bunch of passengers with silverware to defend our country is inexcusable regardless of budget cutbacks. Leaving the capitol undefended while having fighters based in Clear Lake, Texas is flat out nuts.


The vast majority of the fighters based around the US are for training purposes or for defending the USA in the event of a full scale attack. During peace, when there's no threat of an air attack, those defenses are not on standby, because frankly maintaining them on standby is flat out impossible. Instead a skeleton crew of fourteen fighters was maintained at seven bases around the perimeter of the contiguous USA, tasked primarily with intercepting drug smugglers trying to sneak through the ADIZ down near Florida, and occasionally popping up to investigate commercial airliners coming from overseas who had suffered radio or transponder failures.

That's all they were there to do. That has always been NORAD's mission, for over fifty years.

You don't seem to appreciate the logistical difficulty of maintaining the sort of defenses you expect. I suggest you do some reading up on Operation Noble Eagle, and in particular the enormous strain this put on the part time pilots and ground crew of the Air National Guard.

It's simply not feasible. No country in the world can maintain what you expect during peace time.

-Gumboot
 
In my view you're letting you Hollywood-informed expectations cloud your understanding of how the real world operates...I don't think you appreciate just how phenomenal an achievement that was.
Very nice contributions in all your posts. I never bought into the conspiracy theories because they would require beliefs in fantastically impossible alternative explanations. Actually, rather than providing an even unbelievable comprehensive theory, they just raised questions about specific details.

I was curious about many of the questions raised—mostly about the military response to the attacks. There was a very good show on TV a few years back that addressed this question. I don’t remember the name of the program. I think it was on the Military channel. They had interviews with the pilots that were scrambled over New York City, and NORAD people, and air traffic controllers, and such. And minute by minute time lines and detailing everything. It was very cool. It was just like you describe in your posts. It was much different from what I had imagined in my mind that had occurred. It was interesting to see how everything REALLY played out.
 
Whatever is wrong with the "official story" is minor compared to the massive amount of crap that is wrong with the Conspiracy Theories.

Whatever is wrong with the "official story" is minor compared to the massive amount of crap that is wrong with the Conspiracy Theories.

Whatever is wrong with the "official story" is minor compared to the massive amount of crap that is wrong with the Conspiracy Theories.

You can say that again! :D
 
I tend to get angry when it comes to enduring twoofers on screen, but after having watched Judy Wood's interview with Greg Jenkins, I only felt sorry for her. I believe in her case it really is a medical condition. That interview was just... bizarre. Jenkins was really sympathetic to her, but even he was visibly dumbfounded. It's just sad.


I finally sat down and watched the video. He does look visibly dumbfounded. She, on the other hand, looks and sounds like a loon. In fact, I think the "truth" movement was actually better off before this woman started speaking on its behalf. In the past, they could at least push their misguided idea that no engineer in the whole world could speak out about the "real" causes of the collapse for fear of what the "government" might do. Now, not only does their lone "scientist" come up with some wacky space-beam and "snowball" explanation, they can't even claim they're being silenced.

It's weird though, some of her expressions and physical mannerisms remind me a lot of my ex-pat CTist.
 
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Your ideas on the military are not based on extensive knowledge. You should study the military, and how it is used, and the history of our military before you insult the military more.

Statement noted.

When you have over 45 minutes from the first hit to put any sort of air power over your capitol building, and you don't do it, somebody should be held accountable. Just my opinion.

Either the planners are to be held accountable or the ground commanders are to be held accountable. Military or civilian doesn't matter to me.

To the best of my knowledge (and that is admittedly limited) nobody has been held accountable for not securing the capitol. I'm sorry but I find that inexcusable. Why do we spend trillions of dollars every year when we can't put a single aircraft over our capitol building for nearly an hour--CNN reported that the Langley Falcons were 12 minutes and 105 miles away when the Pentgon was hit a little after 9:30 AM. 8:46 to 9:30 + 12 minutes. That is about 60 minutes. And the most feared military apparatus in the world is impotent in fielding a single aircraft over the house of it's leader.

Again, my apologies for not being as smart as you in term of military capabilities but to me, when you don't plan on securing the capitol, you're being derelict in your duties either as a general or on the civilian side.

The job, as I see it, is for them to fight for those who cannot fight for themselves. Whose job was it if not the military?
 

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