Former conspiracy believer here

[holycanoli]

Glad to be here.

Don't apologize. A lot of us are here because we went into it seeing if there was anything at all to the claims and begrudgingly had to accept there wasn't...

...and that they're crazy.

Welcome to the forums, HC. Dig your username.

I appreciate the warm welcomes and I'll do my best not to wear them out.

That having been said, here is where I may "lose" some people...I don't totally understand all of what went on that day and it has yet to be explained to me in a manner where I say, "Oh, so now I see...". In other words, I am less than 100 percent convinced that all of the questions have been answered. For example, I have two main bones of contention about the events. I also have some baggage about the before and the after. First the events.

1. As I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong), a passport from one of the hi-jackers--one of the pilots I believe--of United 175 was found on the streets on lower Manhattan. I have not heard about how many other passports were found. Nor have I heard about other types of documents of the same type being found. Passenger boarding passes, credit cards, driver's licenses, car keys, etc... This strikes me as being very, very odd. According to CNN, 65 souls were on board that air craft. How many other personal effects were found?

SIDEBAR:::I am not saying that this is proof of anything. We're talking quantum physics and high-impact occurrences happening with a frequency heretofore unseen. In no way am I stating that it could not happen. What I am stating is that it is very suspect that this document made it to the ground from an explosion 800-1000 feet in the air, was found by someone in tact, was of one of the hi-jackers, and was possibly a pilot. It is further strange, I feel, that the document was not in his carry-on luggage since he was obviously not going to need it any more, why carry it with you to the cockpit?

Again, I'm fully confident that the 9/|| Commission's report is correct about the events of that day. However, I think the mathematics behind this taking place are much too complicated to be explained easily.

I stand to be illuminated on this. And frankly, I look forward to the cadre explaining it to me.

2. Secondly, I find the quarantine of tapes showing a possible approach of United 77 hitting the Pentagon is very suspect as well. I cannot think of a reason to keep such information from the American public considering that We The People own the building and that it is likely to be one of the top twenty most surveiled (if that is a word) structures in the country.

Beyond those two events which are explainable in the first part by "it just happens sometimes" and in the second part "we're protecting you from graphic mass murder", I feel good about the job the government did once it got around to investigating the events. That being said, I am stunned that nobody that I know of has been fired from CIA for not connecting the dots prior to 9/11. Nobody in the military or senior Bush administration officials has been forced to retire or court-martialed for dereliction of duty for allowing four aircraft to fly around the country unimpeded for so long on the morning of 9/11. We're not talking about the lazy airspace of the Utah-Nevada border, we're talking restricted air space. I think the Commission was given a very dull saber to rattle and that somewhat stinks to me. What questions did they not ask in executive session? But that is water under the bridge at this point.

Anyway, I am hoping that someone can shed some more light on valuables from the passengers hitting the streets in Manhattan. All I have heard is that this passport was found. I'm sure there is a source somewhere that lists what other items were found and I look forward to viewing that data. Likewise, I am really hoping that someone can tell me why the tapes we own are not being at least shown. There is no greater injury to the memory of a loved one than the constant replaying of the deaths of the loved ones and those who are under arms in our country deserve that much respect and much more than that. But since the obscure footage from the guard shack was released, it seems as though we've crossed that bridge already.

Still this is the same administration that will not permit the photography of the caskets being unloaded at Dover for fear that it may graphically illustrate the cost of war. So who really knows what they are thinking?

 

[njslim]

Since you are a college student from NY I assume you have been to Ground Zero? Has your experience of visiting there changed since you stopped believing woo?

Not Oneonta State ?

 

[JimBenArm]

Hey, all you new guys! Clear out, this is my playground, dagnabit! Don't want any of you around here competing with me for attention!

Seriously, glad to see you all here, hope you enjoy it here.

 

[gumboot]

1. As I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong), a passport from one of the hi-jackers--one of the pilots I believe--of United 175 was found on the streets on lower Manhattan. I have not heard about how many other passports were found. Nor have I heard about other types of documents of the same type being found. Passenger boarding passes, credit cards, driver's licenses, car keys, etc... This strikes me as being very, very odd. According to CNN, 65 souls were on board that air craft. How many other personal effects were found?

Strange things happen in chaotic events like an aircraft crash or building collapse. The reality is a variety of things were discovered in the WTC wreckage that you might struggle to believe. Personal affects from both building occupants and aircraft passengers were retrieved. I recall that a "piece" of one victim was discovered, with a section of trousers still on them, including a pocket. In the pocket was a totally untouched wallet. These sorts of strange things happen. Some people are literally obliterated into fragments. Others in the stairwell on the sixth floor during the collapse walk out alive.

The hands of pilots of aircrashes are sometimes found miles from the impact site, still clutching a piece of the control column. At least three people survived the break up of Pan Am Flight 103 at 35,000ft only to die on the ground at Lockerbie.

When a B-25 Bomber crashed into the Empire State Building an already badly injured person survived a freefall in an elevator all the way to the basement.

Had a single hijacker's wallet been the only thing that "survived" the crash and collapse relatively intact, that would be something suspicious. But a multitude of items seemingly miracuously survived while items around them were destroyed. The passport was just one of many.

2. Secondly, I find the quarantine of tapes showing a possible approach of United 77 hitting the Pentagon is very suspect as well. I cannot think of a reason to keep such information from the American public considering that We The People own the building and that it is likely to be one of the top twenty most surveiled (if that is a word) structures in the country.

There's a few aspects to this. The first one is that, by US law, anything seized as evidence for a trial remains the legal property of the owner (assuming the property itself is not illegal such as drugs). Federal prosecutors simply do not have a free ticket to publicly release whatever they feel like releasing.

The second is that there's unlikely be any decent footage of the impact of AA77, and in fact based on several FOIA requests, that's exactly the case.

There's a number of things to bear in mind.

First, on a technical level. Security cameras typically record in a highly compressed format at about 1 frame per second. They're not designed to capture high speed objects, and they can't. Something like an airliner travelling at 500 MPH simply won't register as anything other than a blur.

Secondly there's a functional matter. There's two types or surveillance - preventative or documentative. Preventative surveillance is designed to stop things happening. For example stopping people breaking into a building. Documentative surveillance is designed to act as a record to prosecute someone after an act is committed. For example recording the number plate of the guy who didn't pay for his gas.

Documentative surveillance has to be recorded - you'll need the evidence later to look at.

However time is of the essence for preventative surveillance. It's no good reviewing video tape to realise that some guy broke into the building six days ago. You need live monitoring - people sitting there watching the monitors, ready to act if an incident arises.

The Pentagon had preventative surveillance. It has live monitoring - it's own police force watching hundreds of live video feeds ready to deal with a problem as it arises.

You don't record this sort of surveillance. There's no point, and with the number of cameras the Pentagon had you'd need vast amounts of storage space.

So we get one angle which is a recorded camera looking at a carpark entrance. It actually captures the attack perfectly. It's about the best angle one could ever hope to get. And the fact that it is so worthless demonstrates the problems I was talking about with technology. At the speed it was travelling, AA77 would have crossed the entire width of that frame in one second. And the frame rate of the camera is one second. You just can't get a clear image with that. It's not possible.

So we can rule out pentagon footage. That leaves surrounding cameras. Here your chances decrease significantly. Why does the petrol station owner install cameras? Why does the hotel owner install cameras? To watch the government building across the street? Of course not. They're there to watch their OWN buildings. Not someone else's. So if you happen to get the impact in your camera it's going to be random chance, a distant flash in the background of a shot looking at a register or at the back of the drink coolers.

When the investigation starts you have to move quickly to get evidence. You don't have time to sit there in the petrol station spooling through hours of footage to see if there's anything useful. Even if you had excess manpower to do that, firstly you're really intruding on the business by having your spooks there for hours on end, secondly there's going to be chain of custody issues because you're handling evidence before processing it. Bad idea.

So you bust in to every single neighbouring business and you just seize ALL their surveillance tapes, on the off chance you find something. Don't forget, when you're investigating a crime you often don't know what you're looking for until you find it.

So you check hundreds of tapes, and you don't find anything. So the tapes are quietly returned to their owners or stuffed away in a dusty evidence drawer and that's the end of it. Except a bunch of conspiracy theorists see boogey men under the bed and demand answers. So you let them have a look at some of the hours of worthless footage you've collected. And they're still not happy. They never will be.

-Gumboot

 

[beachnut]

1. As I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong), a passport from one of the hi-jackers--one of the pilots I believe--of United 175 was found on the streets on lower Manhattan. I have not heard about how many other passports were found. Nor have I heard about other types of documents of the same type being found. Passenger boarding passes, credit cards, driver's licenses, car keys, etc... This strikes me as being very, very odd. According to CNN, 65 souls were on board that air craft. How many other personal effects were found?

Again, I'm fully confident that the 9/|| Commission's report is correct about the events of that day. However, I think the mathematics behind this taking place are much too complicated to be explained easily.

I stand to be illuminated on this. And frankly, I look forward to the cadre explaining it to me.

2. Secondly, I find the quarantine of tapes showing a possible approach of United 77 hitting the Pentagon is very suspect as well. I cannot think of a reason to keep such information from the American public considering that We The People own the building and that it is likely to be one of the top twenty most surveiled (if that is a word) structures in the country.

Beyond those two events which are explainable in the first part by "it just happens sometimes" and in the second part "we're protecting you from graphic mass murder", I feel good about the job the government did once it got around to investigating the events. That being said, I am stunned that nobody that I know of has been fired from CIA for not connecting the dots prior to 9/11. Nobody in the military or senior Bush administration officials has been forced to retire or court-martialed for dereliction of duty for allowing four aircraft to fly around the country unimpeded for so long on the morning of 9/11. We're not talking about the lazy airspace of the Utah-Nevada border, we're talking restricted air space. I think the Commission was given a very dull saber to rattle and that somewhat stinks to me. What questions did they not ask in executive session? But that is water under the bridge at this point.


Still this is the same administration that will not permit the photography of the caskets being unloaded at Dover for fear that it may graphically illustrate the cost of war. So who really knows what they are thinking?

First off, the caskets are the business of the parents and next of kin; and it is a disgrace to sell photos of the dead. No one is hiding the people who died in the war. If only we could get our death toll of young people on the road down from 6000 kids a year, yet alone all of us in the 40 to 50,000 range. But I think photos of caskets are the business of the next of kin, take it to them. But what does this have to do with 9/11? Nothing. To tie your hate of Bush to 9/11 is BS.

The passport. In any aircraft impact some items, no matter how big of an impact, come out perfect or near perfect. I would be surprise if many items came off the jets on 9/11 and were spread for hundreds and thousands of feet. I have been in charge of Air Force accidents and we have had to gather all the items from the area. So instruments thrown 3 or 400 feet are still perfect. And some things are all in a tiny hole. Large aircraft have hit the ground at great speed and they are smashed into a tiny lump of metal only a few feet. But still parts are ejected in good shape. If you do not believe a passport can be found after an accident, then you will not understand why only one person out of 6, all the in same car remains alive, walking away, while the rest are stone dead smashed up. I have seen many photos of people looking and poking at objects on the ground in NYC on 9/11 from the impacts of the jets. Thousand of items form the planes and buildings. I would expect there was stuff ejected for thousands of feet. Fingers, feet, wallets, passports, etc. I would hate to ask people what they saw on 9/11. It must be horrible to be near the WTC on 9/11 and be showered with parts of people and junk. The passport is very likely. Only 9/11 truth makes up lies about it. Plus the passport is not needed to prove who was on the plane. Maybe his passport was in his luggage or jacket, or briefcase.

There is no reason the military would be prepared to shoot down commercial airliners on 9/11. If you can tell me why, then please explain. Intercepts on hijacked aircraft was done on a case by case basis, and world take over an hour in most cases, if at all. The military card you are trying to play is old and worn out, and not a factor. You comment on the military is BS.

What cameras do you think are outside filming the Pentagon and why would they film the Pentagon? We do not need film, we have the entire plane, dead people DNA, and eye witnesses. The only people dumb enough to not believe flight 77 hit the pentagon are in the 9/11 truth movement.

 

[holycanoli]

Strange things happen in chaotic events like an aircraft crash or building collapse. The reality is a variety of things were discovered in the WTC wreckage that you might struggle to believe. Personal affects from both building occupants and aircraft passengers were retrieved. I recall that a "piece" of one victim was discovered, with a section of trousers still on them, including a pocket. In the pocket was a totally untouched wallet. These sorts of strange things happen. Some people are literally obliterated into fragments. Others in the stairwell on the sixth floor during the collapse walk out alive.

The hands of pilots of aircrashes are sometimes found miles from the impact site, still clutching a piece of the control column. At least three people survived the break up of Pan Am Flight 103 at 35,000ft only to die on the ground at Lockerbie.

When a B-25 Bomber crashed into the Empire State Building an already badly injured person survived a freefall in an elevator all the way to the basement.

Had a single hijacker's wallet been the only thing that "survived" the crash and collapse relatively intact, that would be something suspicious. But a multitude of items seemingly miracuously survived while items around them were destroyed. The passport was just one of many.





There's a few aspects to this. The first one is that, by US law, anything seized as evidence for a trial remains the legal property of the owner (assuming the property itself is not illegal such as drugs). Federal prosecutors simply do not have a free ticket to publicly release whatever they feel like releasing.

The second is that there's unlikely be any decent footage of the impact of AA77, and in fact based on several FOIA requests, that's exactly the case.

There's a number of things to bear in mind.

First, on a technical level. Security cameras typically record in a highly compressed format at about 1 frame per second. They're not designed to capture high speed objects, and they can't. Something like an airliner travelling at 500 MPH simply won't register as anything other than a blur.

Secondly there's a functional matter. There's two types or surveillance - preventative or documentative. Preventative surveillance is designed to stop things happening. For example stopping people breaking into a building. Documentative surveillance is designed to act as a record to prosecute someone after an act is committed. For example recording the number plate of the guy who didn't pay for his gas.

Documentative surveillance has to be recorded - you'll need the evidence later to look at.

However time is of the essence for preventative surveillance. It's no good reviewing video tape to realise that some guy broke into the building six days ago. You need live monitoring - people sitting there watching the monitors, ready to act if an incident arises.

The Pentagon had preventative surveillance. It has live monitoring - it's own police force watching hundreds of live video feeds ready to deal with a problem as it arises.

You don't record this sort of surveillance. There's no point, and with the number of cameras the Pentagon had you'd need vast amounts of storage space.

So we get one angle which is a recorded camera looking at a carpark entrance. It actually captures the attack perfectly. It's about the best angle one could ever hope to get. And the fact that it is so worthless demonstrates the problems I was talking about with technology. At the speed it was travelling, AA77 would have crossed the entire width of that frame in one second. And the frame rate of the camera is one second. You just can't get a clear image with that. It's not possible.

So we can rule out pentagon footage. That leaves surrounding cameras. Here your chances decrease significantly. Why does the petrol station owner install cameras? Why does the hotel owner install cameras? To watch the government building across the street? Of course not. They're there to watch their OWN buildings. Not someone else's. So if you happen to get the impact in your camera it's going to be random chance, a distant flash in the background of a shot looking at a register or at the back of the drink coolers.

When the investigation starts you have to move quickly to get evidence. You don't have time to sit there in the petrol station spooling through hours of footage to see if there's anything useful. Even if you had excess manpower to do that, firstly you're really intruding on the business by having your spooks there for hours on end, secondly there's going to be chain of custody issues because you're handling evidence before processing it. Bad idea.

So you bust in to every single neighbouring business and you just seize ALL their surveillance tapes, on the off chance you find something. Don't forget, when you're investigating a crime you often don't know what you're looking for until you find it.

So you check hundreds of tapes, and you don't find anything. So the tapes are quietly returned to their owners or stuffed away in a dusty evidence drawer and that's the end of it. Except a bunch of conspiracy theorists see boogey men under the bed and demand answers. So you let them have a look at some of the hours of worthless footage you've collected. And they're still not happy. They never will be.

-Gumboot

Excellent. Everything is answered except for...if the tapes don't show anything, why not release them? Releasing a tape that shows nothing doesn't help anybody but the point is that the Pentagon is our building and we should have access to the tapes; positive, negative, or otherwise. We shouldn't have access to sensetive material.

As for the materials hitting the streets below, I assumed there was things that were found but simply didn't have any supporting statements. Until now, thanks again.

 

[gumboot]

Excellent. Everything is answered except for...if the tapes don't show anything, why not release them? Releasing a tape that shows nothing doesn't help anybody but the point is that the Pentagon is our building and we should have access to the tapes; positive, negative, or otherwise. We shouldn't have access to sensetive material.

Because the tapes belong to the people they came from. The government has no right to release them any more than you have a right to see them.
For what it's worth the government has released some tapes. They were asked to release all tapes showing the impact of AA77 and they did so. I think there were two or three.

If you want to see every single tape the government seized on 9/11 I suggest you file a FOIA and see what happens. You might get lucky.

-Gumboot

 

[T.A.M.]

1. As I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong), a passport from one of the hi-jackers--one of the pilots I believe--of United 175 was found on the streets on lower Manhattan. I have not heard about how many other passports were found. Nor have I heard about other types of documents of the same type being found. Passenger boarding passes, credit cards, driver's licenses, car keys, etc... This strikes me as being very, very odd. According to CNN, 65 souls were on board that air craft. How many other personal effects were found?

http://www.911myths.com/html/passport_recovered.html

SIDEBAR:::I am not saying that this is proof of anything. We're talking quantum physics and high-impact occurrences happening with a frequency heretofore unseen. In no way am I stating that it could not happen. What I am stating is that it is very suspect that this document made it to the ground from an explosion 800-1000 feet in the air, was found by someone in tact, was of one of the hi-jackers, and was possibly a pilot. It is further strange, I feel, that the document was not in his carry-on luggage since he was obviously not going to need it any more, why carry it with you to the cockpit?

How do we know it was not in his carry-on luggage? Unless his carry-on luggage was also found, intact and unopened, we do not know this. Apart from this, It is odd, but in a complex event of the magnitude of this event, there will of course, be lots of "odd" occurances.

Again, I'm fully confident that the 9/|| Commission's report is correct about the events of that day. However, I think the mathematics behind this taking place are much too complicated to be explained easily.

I stand to be illuminated on this. And frankly, I look forward to the cadre explaining it to me.

the odds of you stepping outside, falling, striking your head on the concrete, and dieing are slim...but it COULD happen.

2. Secondly, I find the quarantine of tapes showing a possible approach of United 77 hitting the Pentagon is very suspect as well. I cannot think of a reason to keep such information from the American public considering that We The People own the building and that it is likely to be one of the top twenty most surveiled (if that is a word) structures in the country.

www.flight77.info while a truther site, has some good info on this if you dig there.

What it amounts to is this...there were 85 tapes capturing video on that day, around the pentagon. Of those 85, the FBI agent in charge, in reply to an FOIA request, stated that only 13 were actually in a position to record the area that was struck in the attack. Of those 13 only two, the ones already released (the security cam images), showed any images of the attack itself.

Now if you do not believe her, that is another thing all together...I have no reason, personally, not to believe her.

Beyond those two events which are explainable in the first part by "it just happens sometimes" and in the second part "we're protecting you from graphic mass murder", I feel good about the job the government did once it got around to investigating the events. That being said, I am stunned that nobody that I know of has been fired from CIA for not connecting the dots prior to 9/11. Nobody in the military or senior Bush administration officials has been forced to retire or court-martialed for dereliction of duty for allowing four aircraft to fly around the country unimpeded for so long on the morning of 9/11. We're not talking about the lazy airspace of the Utah-Nevada border, we're talking restricted air space. I think the Commission was given a very dull saber to rattle and that somewhat stinks to me. What questions did they not ask in executive session? But that is water under the bridge at this point.

as others may have pointed out, the airspace near/around the pentagon, was not restricted (IIRC), as it is too near the local airport. There are areas in Washington DC that are restricted (I believe over the white house and near the capital, IIRC).

Anyway, I am hoping that someone can shed some more light on valuables from the passengers hitting the streets in Manhattan. All I have heard is that this passport was found. I'm sure there is a source somewhere that lists what other items were found and I look forward to viewing that data. Likewise, I am really hoping that someone can tell me why the tapes we own are not being at least shown. There is no greater injury to the memory of a loved one than the constant replaying of the deaths of the loved ones and those who are under arms in our country deserve that much respect and much more than that. But since the obscure footage from the guard shack was released, it seems as though we've crossed that bridge already.

Still this is the same administration that will not permit the photography of the caskets being unloaded at Dover for fear that it may graphically illustrate the cost of war. So who really knows what they are thinking?

I hope I and others have been helpful...stick around, search, read, and learn.

TAM

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

Realcddeal has responsibilities and a life outside of talking on this forum. I have to work for a living and tend to family matters, which many here do, so it really isn't appropriate to go too far with the swipe that because someone doesn't reply right away that they don't have an answer. Mark Roberts' (Gravy) question was a change of subject anyway.

Sorry if I can't help but think it took you more time to compose this non-response than to find a link or type the evidence that has been asked of you.

Holycanoli, welcome to the forum.

 

[Caper]

Great post. I'll now tell my own story:

My relationship with the loose change crowd was sort of over before it began. If you had to assign a number to me, I was about 60% convinced that the government had no hand in the attacks or allowing them to happen. With that ratio not being satisfactory, I made a decision to look at the other side of the coin. So in August I registered with LC911.com and decided to give them two months to push that down to 50/50. Nobody even came close. And that is okay. I have my beliefs and they have theirs and I respect that.

What was even more bizarre though was that nobody over there will lay out what "really" happened. And that is fine too I suppose but if you are not going to offer any alternatives, do not be upset when nobody outside of your confederates are willing to follow you. I would think that they would be chomping at the bit to state what really happened but nobody at Loose Change 911 would do so. Not only that, they offered the most bizarre explanations for the events of that tragic day. SPreston who is especially committed (or at least should be) stated that the planes were remote controlled to their targets. The hi-jackers only had to get access to the cockpit, kill the pilot and co-pilot, and implant a remote control device....so they could be flown to their deaths without having to sweat the details of flying a plane. If I'm one of these hi-jackers, I am talking to the shop steward at this point asking for re-assignment. There were people over there contending that everything from landing gears to airplane wheels to engines (which weigh several hundred pounds) was planted. Yeah, by the Incredible Hulk I'm guessing. And when confronted with the most basic questions of how you would wire 220 floors for controlled demolition (in the CD theory) and have a plane painted to resemble either a UA or AA jumbo jet (in the drones plane theory), their answer is simply, "Black ops." It made me cry--the simple mindedness of it all. Black Ops. Right. Given the years of planning involved in this conspiracy, the hundreds if not thousands of actors would probably have spilled something in the ten year period this has been going on. Nothing. Not a whisper, not a drunk call, not a single person holding their silence over the head of "Mr. big" as extortion capital...nothing at all. When asked about this, the faithful over at Loose Change 911 would remark simplistically that they are being intimidated into silence. Excuse me? The next time you are able to intimidate a black ops commando will be the very first time in the history of the world that a black ops commando was intimidated. These people disappear and make others disappear for a living and you think that someone is going to intimidate them? All in all, the loose change 911 crowd struck me as amateurish, native, and petty.

That was until I looked at the links on the first page. I did this around September once I diagnosed that I was not out of my depth with the LC911 crowd. I was much less naïve than most of them and they bored me. So I decided that there must be a more--how should I say--intelligent forum of "truthers" out there so I followed the links. One was pretty reasonable considering its company (Cooperative Research). The rest was approximately on the logic level of a five year old that was told there would be no birthday party due to him not finishing dinner. Alex Jones, I'm sorry to say, is a moron. The man is stuck on owls and even wishes to equate the wildly popular University of Texas "hook em horns" hand gesture where you put your middle two fingers and thumb together leaving your pinky and index finger outward with some sort of satanic sign. He even trudged up a still photo of George Bush doing this. Bush is from Texas and his office was in Austin for six unbelievably long years. He's going to flash the "hook em horns" sign once in a while. Along with 80,000 or so every game day Saturday in the fall at Royal Stadium.

Anyway, this post is far too long already so I'll wrap up. One of the people at LooseChange911.com told me that I should go back to "jref" which struck me as odd since I had never been her to start with. So I decided to go back to where I had never been and have been impressed with my measured involvement so far.

Sorry for the long winded reply.

Thanks

HC

Is there an award for post of the year? Seriously?

 

[Shrinker]

Excellent. Everything is answered except for...if the tapes don't show anything, why not release them? Releasing a tape that shows nothing doesn't help anybody but the point is that the Pentagon is our building and we should have access to the tapes; positive, negative, or otherwise. We shouldn't have access to sensetive material.

Of the 85 tapes seized, 56 don't show the building at all, so even if all videos showing public buildings automatically become copyright-free public property, there'd still be 56 videos for the CTists to carp on about.

16 of the remaining 29 didn't show the crash site, so even if we did see them, how would CTists know when they were filmed?

12 of the remaining 13 videos only showed the crash site after impact, and we've all seen that. Could they be from TV news stations? If so, the footage is already public.

And the last one is the Citgo video, which has been released.

Figures from... http://www.rense.com/general67/fbicl.htm

Edit: Oh and welcome!

 

[Nick227]

Almost to a T, every conspiracy theorist who gets deprogrammed says the same thing: it was based mostly on emotion (or the theory pushed all their psychological buttons), and they only read CT sources. Once they started reading alternatives, they saw the light.

Congrats, Diagoras. Welcome back to Club Reality.

Just make sure you don't read any modern critical histories of the activities of the World Bank and IMF....or all those nasty feelings might start coming back again!

Nick

 

[Gravy]

Welcome to the forums, holycanoli, and thanks for sharing your story. gumboot and others covered the flight 77 videotape issue well. Here's some more info about items recovered from flights 11 and 175, from here.

On the street, standing in a shower of office paper and the siding from the building, he found a piece of paper. It was an airliner's itinerary, listing information about a flight from Boston to Los Angeles. Source


"...I noticed in the courtyard that there were valises, suitcases, strewn about the courtyard. There were wallets everywhere, broken glass, and then I noticed that there were airplane tickets." FDNY firefighter John Moribito


Along with the letter was a note: ''To whom it may concern. This was found floating around the street in downtown New York. I am sorry if you suffered any loss in this tragedy. Sincerely, a friend in New York!''
...Since then, Mrs. Snyder, a customer service representative at a grocery store, has discovered that she has one of only two pieces of mail known to have been recovered from the planes that crashed into the World Trade Center. At least one auction house has contacted her, saying she could sell the letter for tens of thousands of dollars. Source


Lisa Anne Frost was 22 and had just graduated from Boston University in May 2001 with two degrees and multiple academic and service honors. She had worked all summer in Boston before coming home, finally, to California to start her new life. The Rancho Santa Margarita woman was on United Flight 175 on the morning of Sept. 11, 2001, when it became the second plane to slam into the World Trade Center.
...In February, the day of the Columbia tragedy, we got word they'd found her United Airlines Mileage Plus card. It was found very near where they'd found a piece of her right hip. We imagine that she used the card early on the morning of Sept. 11 to get on the plane and just stuck it in her back pocket, probably her right back pocket, instead of in her purse. Source​

DNA extractions were done on every one of the 19,906 remains, and 4,735 of those have been identified. As many as 200 remains have been linked to a single person.

The 1,401 people identified include 45 of those aboard the hijacked planes - 33 from Flight 11, which struck the north tower, and 12 from Flight 175, which hit the south tower. Source

An interesting thing is the mention of the Columbia disaster in the Frost story. That was the space shuttle that broke up on reentry. As Mike of 911myths points out, small worms that were part of a science experiment on board survived the breakup and impact.

I've used this example before: try to calculate the "odds" that a Cantor Fitzgerald employee who was above the north tower aircraft impact zone would be found weeks later in the ruins of building 6, sitting upright, wearing his suit, with his wallet in his pocket. But it happened.

 

[Architect]

It was found very near where they'd found a piece of her right hip. We imagine that she used the card early on the morning of Sept. 11 to get on the plane and just stuck it in her back pocket, probably her right back pocket, instead of in her purse.

I can't quite come up with the words to say how utterly disturbing I find this kind of comment. People who bandy about accusations of no-planes and secret black-ops holograms set such compelling, distressing testimony at naught and cheapen the lives lost.

 

[uk_dave]

Perhaps a brief narrative, such as,
"I talked to an engineer at a local university and he explained that ..." or "I read the NIST Report and ..."

Ohhhhh would that 'truthers' could do the same.

BTW, have you read the NIST report or spoken with an engineer from a local university?

 

[Architect]

Ohhhhh would that 'truthers' could do the same.

BTW, have you read the NIST report or spoken with a structural or fire engineer from a local university?

Corrected to avoid car mechanic being cited as source.

 

[uk_dave]

Corrected to avoid car mechanic being cited as source.

[innocent fool] Thank you, but do you really think they would cite a source simply because it had 'engineer' in the title, regardless of it having nothing to do with structural design or fire? [/innocent fool]

 

[holycanoli]

The post-gazette article was precisely what I was looking for thanks. For the first time, my survey of the events of 9/11 have yielded some good information and a question that was on my mind for a while before then has been answered. Along with the explanation that the security cameras used time lapse technology, I can see why there was no footage of the side of the building being hit.

The truther site, "flight77info" is apparently a dead link...it shows a guy getting busy with a baseball bat. Yuck

As for airspace, the WTC north tower had already been hit. Having a jumbo jet off course and approaching DC at a high rate of speed while technically startling restricted airspace doesn’t seem to speak to a "wait and see" posture on the part of the military or senior administration officials. Or at least it shouldn't. Jets were scrambled. I know that. However there is no excuse for CAP not being in place over our nation's most vital structures--the capitol building in seconds. I'm not saying that it was anybody ordering Maverick and Iceman to go patrol sector 5 instead of the nation's capitol. What I am saying is that the fact that there did not seem to be a plan in place to secure the DC airspace (restricted or unrestricted) is grounds for a serious reduction either in rank or employment status. Seriously, this is a republic and we're vulnerable by the definition of our form of government but, IMHO, no other government in the world would allow such actions to take place. Obviously it happened here. It shouldn't have. Somebody was not doing their job in my opinion.

 

[holycanoli]

Of the 85 tapes seized, 56 don't show the building at all, so even if all videos showing public buildings automatically become copyright-free public property, there'd still be 56 videos for the CTists to carp on about.

16 of the remaining 29 didn't show the crash site, so even if we did see them, how would CTists know when they were filmed?

12 of the remaining 13 videos only showed the crash site after impact, and we've all seen that. Could they be from TV news stations? If so, the footage is already public.

And the last one is the Citgo video, which has been released.

Figures from...

Edit: Oh and welcome!

asked and answered. thanks

 

[holycanoli]

Welcome to the forums, holycanoli, and thanks for sharing your story. gumboot and others covered the flight 77 videotape issue well. Here's some more info about items recovered from flights 11 and 175, from here.



An interesting thing is the mention of the Columbia disaster in the Frost story. That was the space shuttle that broke up on reentry. As Mike of 911myths points out, small worms that were part of a science experiment on board survived the breakup and impact.

I've used this example before: try to calculate the "odds" that a Cantor Fitzgerald employee who was above the north tower aircraft impact zone would be found weeks later in the ruins of building 6, sitting upright, wearing his suit, with his wallet in his pocket. But it happened.

Thank you for that.

Too bizarre for Hollywood to make up.

I feel as though I have the need to state that I wasn't questioning the fact that a passport was found...I wasn't. I was ignorant of what other items were found. I no longer am. It is sort of loke Joe Dimaggio's hitting streak. You remember that because of the heroic feat of one person but you forget that the Yankees won the championship that year. I remember the passport because of it's dubious ownership, not because it was a passport.