Former conspiracy believer here

[gumboot]

Witnesses to the crash of the second plane number in the thousands, probably tens of thousands.

There's about 1.6 million people living in Manhattan alone, with millions more within sight of the WTC. I'd be willing to bet hundreds of thousands of people witnessed the impact of UA175 with their own eyes, with countless millions more witnessing it live on TV.

-Gumboot

 

[CptColumbo]

There's about 1.6 million people living in Manhattan alone, with millions more within sight of the WTC. I'd be willing to bet hundreds of thousands of people witnessed the impact of UA175 with their own eyes, with countless millions more witnessing it live on TV.

-Gumboot

["twoofer"]Shills.
Sheeple.
Just shows what peer presure can do.[/twoofer]

 

[Elizabeth I]

Seriously, how do you guys not see that this is just an obvious work?

A work of what? Of art? Of the devil?

 

[CurtC]

I skipped from page 1 to 4. Did RedIbis ever explain what an "obvious work" is? I'm unfamiliar with that term.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Welcome, Diagoras!

I was never a 911 CTist, but in my salad days I believed in all sorts of things. Being a "bit" older than most on this sub-forum, I actually lived through Bay of Pigs, Cuban Missile Crisis, JFK Assassination, et al... And being a creature of the extreme left, I was willing to believe anything bad about anyone in any official position in any arm of any government. Except, of course, for Uncle Mao and Uncle Joe - they were cool 'cuz they were saving humankind from its own greed and worst instincts.

And just to get things straight for Red, who has difficulty with the concept that anyone could ever question his/her own fuzzy thinking and beliefs, there was NO SINGLE EPIPHANY that woke me up. A little reading here, paying attention to videos and television shows, listening to what some of the "other guys" were saying, and most important - questioning what was coming out of the mouths of some of my own side.

I think the first wake-up call was the Paul is Dead scenario. Man, was that fun for about 36 hours. And then Paul came out with an interview and I realized it had all been just nonsense. The shock was the people who absolutely had to defend their silliness and continue with more and more elaborate deceptions and clues to prove that they were right all along. This is what the 911 TM has had to resort to.

In defence of the 'gradual enlightenment' that Diagoras describes, I have to say that I never actually sat down and did an inventory of my beliefs and start dissecting them. I still believed in at least six of the JFK theories (and that in itself began to wear on me - how could everyone in the world have been in on it depending on whose book you read most recently).

I believed, and still believe to an extent that Pearl Harbor was, while not an outright conspiracy, at least a bit of a set-up by FDR, hoping the Japanese would attack but just not realizing how devastating the attack would be nor when it would occur.

And don't get me started on that Trojan Horse thingy! (Did I mention that I'm a little older than most of you?) C'mon - a bunch of guys hiding in a big wooden horse that the Trojans just conveeeeniently took inside their fortified walls! Obviously an inside job!

 

[pomeroo]

Welcome, Diagoras!

I was never a 911 CTist, but in my salad days I believed in all sorts of things. Being a "bit" older than most on this sub-forum, I actually lived through Bay of Pigs, Cuban Missile Crisis, JFK Assassination, et al... And being a creature of the extreme left, I was willing to believe anything bad about anyone in any official position in any arm of any government. Except, of course, for Uncle Mao and Uncle Joe - they were cool 'cuz they were saving humankind from its own greed and worst instincts.

And just to get things straight for Red, who has difficulty with the concept that anyone could ever question his/her own fuzzy thinking and beliefs, there was NO SINGLE EPIPHANY that woke me up. A little reading here, paying attention to videos and television shows, listening to what some of the "other guys" were saying, and most important - questioning what was coming out of the mouths of some of my own side.

I think the first wake-up call was the Paul is Dead scenario. Man, was that fun for about 36 hours. And then Paul came out with an interview and I realized it had all been just nonsense. The shock was the people who absolutely had to defend their silliness and continue with more and more elaborate deceptions and clues to prove that they were right all along. This is what the 911 TM has had to resort to.

In defence of the 'gradual enlightenment' that Diagoras describes, I have to say that I never actually sat down and did an inventory of my beliefs and start dissecting them. I still believed in at least six of the JFK theories (and that in itself began to wear on me - how could everyone in the world have been in on it depending on whose book you read most recently).

I believed, and still believe to an extent that Pearl Harbor was, while not an outright conspiracy, at least a bit of a set-up by FDR, hoping the Japanese would attack but just not realizing how devastating the attack would be nor when it would occur.

And don't get me started on that Trojan Horse thingy! (Did I mention that I'm a little older than most of you?) C'mon - a bunch of guys hiding in a big wooden horse that the Trojans just conveeeeniently took inside their fortified walls! Obviously an inside job!

Wow, your anecdote about the bogus "Paul-is-dead" controversy takes me back. That marked my first experience with the sort of loons who are incapable of abandoning a belief that has been shown to be flatly wrong. I remember one nut screaming about walruses being a symbol of death in "every" culture in the world. He got angry when I asked him if he thought the natives of Borneo, or Fiji, or the Trobriand Islands, had a word for "walrus." How about the Arabs or the peoples of sub-Saharan Africa? Please note that he was angry; he never retreated a step from his insane position.

 

[pomeroo]

["twoofer"]Shills.
Sheeple.
Just shows what peer presure can do.[/twoofer]

Here are Reynolds's own words. Needless to say, he hasn't the slightest idea of why "Newtonian physics" invalidates the experience of thousands of observers:

"btw1, Newtonian physics trump the alleged thousands, millions, whatever, of eyewitnesses, in and outside of courts of law.
btw2, where are all the ear witnesses diving to get out of the way of a 120 dB+ kamikaze jetliner? Regarding eyewitnesses, consult the only large study of first responders by Andrew Johnson and see the paucity of accounts of witnessing by ear, eye or both of an airplane hitting WTC 2, even though the interviews were months after the event, conducted by FDNY officials, not under oath, not subject to cross examination and subject to substantial redaction): http://www.checktheevidence.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=134&Itemid=60 "

 

[RedIbis]

Diagoras, lordofwaffles, Caper, and Whack01, welcome to the forum.

RedIbis, stop picking on the noobs. Give them a chance to catch their breath at least.

Good advice. I wouldn't discourage anyone from participating on jref. This is a great forum with many intelligent people. If there is a grace period during which a "noob" is welcomed, I'm not aware of it. As soon as I questioned the official story, I got hammered pretty good. This forum is not for the lighthearted, regardless of what perspective one might present.

My posts are based on an honest reaction. I still haven't read what piece of evidence convinced Diagoras that the official story was conclusive.

 

[Diagoras]

My posts are based on an honest reaction.

No, your posts are based on made-up accusations. You called me a liar for no good reason, and continue to, yet you have not presented any evidence that I am a liar despite many requests to do so. That is a very dishonest thing to do.

I still haven't read what piece of evidence convinced Diagoras that the official story was conclusive.

Please refer to the numerous posts explaining that there is no one piece of evidence that deconverted me from the conspiracy delusion. It was a gradual process that took a long time to complete as I examined many sources and many arguments. This is a complex issue, and obviously it takes more than one piece of evidence to change a thinking person's mind about a complex issue.

You have to realize that not everybody's mind works as simplistically as yours. Some of us don't see the world in black and white, and do not change our entire worldviews overnight based on single pieces of data.

By the way, people aren't hammering you for "questioning the official story". This is a group of people who encourage the questioning of authority figures after all. It is quite apparent that the real reason they're hammering you is for your disconnection with reality. It's good to ask questions. But when the real answers are so obvious and you still insist on promoting false claims and making baseless accusations of fakery, you should expect a hammering or two.

 

[R.Mackey]

By the way, people aren't hammering you for "questioning the official story". This is a group of people who encourage the questioning of authority figures after all. It is quite apparent that the real reason they're hammering you is for your disconnection with reality. It's good to ask questions. But when the real answers are so obvious and you still insist on promoting false claims and making baseless accusations of fakery, you should expect a hammering or two.

To be completely fair, Red Ibis's arrival was somewhat hotly greeted, and unfortunately that's common here. Perhaps this is because many posters here are fatigued with hearing the same nonsense repeated time after time, and perhaps because the implications -- such as baseless accusations of treason, levied against politicians, firefighters, scientists, and/or certain ethnic groups, depending on the particular flavor -- are so repellent. It is unfortunate that we're not as cordial and professional as we could be. Still, if one reads here before posting for the first time, one should have some idea what to expect.

What's amusing this time is that the shoe is on the other foot. Red Ibis has now done to you precisely what he criticizes other JREF posters for, namely branded you a liar, a fool, or a stooge without any basis at all, despite his protestations since then.

This is typical in the Truth Movement. I imagine you're aware of the sniping between the Scholars for 9/11 Truth and the Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice, the battles between the no-planers and the explosives camp, and the fact that just about everyone has been called "disinfo" at one time or another. So don't take it personally. The Truth Movement is a suspicious lot!

We've already seen all that Red Ibis has to offer and found it groundless. You can search for this yourself if you want. Everyone is entitled to her own opinion, of course, but we tend to value those opinions with a logical or factual basis.

Welcome to the Forum, and don't let the Truthers get you down. Good choice of handle, by the way. I think you'll like it here... Be sure to check out the other sub-forums.

 

[Foolmewunz]

<snip>

My posts are based on an honest reaction. I still haven't read what piece of evidence convinced Diagoras that the official story was conclusive.

Red,

Now you're being intentionally obtuse! If you can't see it then you are dumber than I give you credit for, and I don't think that's the case. You're making with the a little grandstanding/sophistry, here.

How many times do we have to state it, and specifically does Diagoras have to state it? Sometimes there is no one single moment of enlightenement. You, yourself, when asked for that single defining moment or document, listed a handful of sources. Is that because you attained gradual enlightenment as to The Truth, or does that indicate that your posts in this thread are "a work".

Do you actually have something else to say, but are refusing to because you want to seem "of one mind" with your brethren in the TM Politeness Wing? Was the original Loose Change your great shining moment? Maybe it was reading DRG? How about Sophie's cut-n-paste pastiche of lies and distortions. Or perhaps you were born with a TM pacifier in your mouth - and you always knew these things instinctively. A whole lot of possibilities for a "work", here!

Or should we accept you, as a mensch, at your word?

 

[The Doc]

I assume that by "work" he means something made up that was planted here by someone working for the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks, or someone trying to discredit the conspiracy fantasists.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Tony:

Is the "Peer Review Pool" used for JONES (journal of nine eleven studies) articles different from the advisory editorial board for the journal?

If so, is JONES willing to release the names of the entire pool?

Are there experts in Chemistry, Demolitions, and Aviation within the pool?

Thanks in advance,

TAM

Yes, the peer review pool is different from the advisory editorial board.

You will have to contact Dr. Jones to see if he is willing to release names of those in the peer review pool.

I know of certain individuals in the review pool and the experience is varied and technical in nature.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Welcome, Diagoras. Fascinating OP.

RedIbis really wants to think that a person becomes convinced by the "official story" by merely swallowing one article alone, "hook, line and sinker" as he would put it.

RedIbis just can't conceive that someone would renounce Da Twoof by weighing up hundreds of claims against the evidence, and by thinking through the ridiculously contradictory claims of the Truth Movement.

He clings to the tired myths of Twoofers having an "open mind" and everyone else being "sheeple".

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

My posts are based on an honest reaction. I still haven't read what piece of evidence convinced Diagoras that the official story was conclusive.

Did you miss the list in post #6, which was cited at least twice in the subsequent posts to this thread?

I don't remember exactly. It was a combination of things. One was simply arguing the issue on another forum with people who didn't buy the conspiracy. One was the awesome episode of Penn and Teller's BS on conspiracy theories. Another was the Popular Mechanics website. I'm sure there were more, but I can't think of them right now.

He gave three seperat pieces of evidence that led towards his change in POV. Did you actually somehow miss that part of his post and where it was quoted, or are you just being obtuse?

Diagoras, I think your post was a work. Work meaning a fine piece of writing in my case. Welcome to the forum and don't confine yourself to CT.

 

[T.A.M.]

Yes, the peer review pool is different from the advisory editorial board.

You will have to contact Dr. Jones to see if he is willing to release names of those in the peer review pool.

I know of certain individuals in the review pool and the experience is varied and technical in nature.

Thank you Tony. To keep my anonymity, I will not be able to email him myself, but hopefully someone who has already decided to let the world know who they are, can do so.

TAM

 

[apathoid]

Diagoras​

Great OP. Don't mind RedIbis and Zensmack. They're rightfully upset at you for jumping ship weighing the evidence and seeking the truth of the matter. Stick around for awhile, you might find yourself at home here.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Diagoras.

Since you are a college student from NY I assume you have been to Ground Zero? Has your experience of visiting there changed since you stopped believing woo?

What do your firends think about your change of heart? Have you lost any? or did one play a role in your change in thinkin?

 

[Athyrio]

....snip....I think the first wake-up call was the Paul is Dead scenario. Man, was that fun for about 36 hours. And then Paul came out with an interview and I realized it had all been just nonsense....snip...

I've thought about this before when I see the threads here and elsewhere that are the result of someone's having spent countless hours poring over the many photographs of the 9/11 disaster sites searching for seeming anomalies in light and shadows and I think back to those days in 1969 after having used Beatle LP album covers to clean and roll some pot, we would dust them off, and begin to pore over every millimetre of surface of Sgt. Pepper's lonely Hearts Club and Abbey Road, sometimes with a magnifying glass, shrieking Eureka!-type sounds occasionally when something of note was "discovered", anything to support the notion that Paul was dead just because someone somewhere had hinted so, but fortunately, before we could apply our investigative expertise to the white album, we eventually regained our senses and dropped the nonsense and laugh about it today in wonderment at all of the wasted hours spent on such a fruitless endeavor when we could have been busy in our garages discovering the internet instead.

 

[RedIbis]

To be completely fair, Red Ibis's arrival was somewhat hotly greeted, and unfortunately that's common here. Perhaps this is because many posters here are fatigued with hearing the same nonsense repeated time after time, and perhaps because the implications -- such as baseless accusations of treason, levied against politicians, firefighters, scientists, and/or certain ethnic groups, depending on the particular flavor -- are so repellent. It is unfortunate that we're not as cordial and professional as we could be. Still, if one reads here before posting for the first time, one should have some idea what to expect.

What's amusing this time is that the shoe is on the other foot. Red Ibis has now done to you precisely what he criticizes other JREF posters for, namely branded you a liar, a fool, or a stooge without any basis at all, despite his protestations since then.

This is typical in the Truth Movement. I imagine you're aware of the sniping between the Scholars for 9/11 Truth and the Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice, the battles between the no-planers and the explosives camp, and the fact that just about everyone has been called "disinfo" at one time or another. So don't take it personally. The Truth Movement is a suspicious lot!

We've already seen all that Red Ibis has to offer and found it groundless. You can search for this yourself if you want. Everyone is entitled to her own opinion, of course, but we tend to value those opinions with a logical or factual basis.

Allow me to clear up a few misconceptions. For one thing, there is no excuse for incivility, fatigue or otherwise. That's just something some posters on here believe they are entitled to.

Secondly, I never called Diagoras or anyone else a fool, liar or stooge. Namecalling is a privledge of the most prominent voices on here (not you, R Mackey. You're generally polite).

"Truth Movement", "truther", "twoofer" and other variations are just attempts at labeling large groups of people, with whom you disagree. I don't belong to any movement, attend meetings, pay dues, or organize with people based on 9/11 research. I'm not aware of the gossip, in-fighting, or grudge matches that go on with Scholars for 911T, jref, or anyone else.

And although R Mackey didn't bring this up in his post, allow me to address this here: Diagoras was asked to provide the evidence or source that inspired his transformation. A TV show is not evidence, the Popular Mechanics website is not evidence in itself. I was asking for what specific source or evidence caused this change in thinking. Perhaps a brief narrative, such as,
"I talked to an engineer at a local university and he explained that ..." or "I read the NIST Report and ..."