• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Former conspiracy believer here

There are plenty examples of steel structures collapsing due to fire. Most fortunaly though, all those didn't have debris from a 110 story building collapsing into them.

Ya think that might've had something to do with it? ;)

In my one and only debate with truthers, which happened as I was walking in downtown Chicago, the truthers denied that WTC7 incurred any damage from falling debris during the collapse of the towers.

Anyway, as per Red's debating style I think this part of the story will be ignored as much as possible.
 
however, you forget that there was more than just fire (whether could or did burn hot enough) that affected WTC 7's stability.
I'm not sure he forgot that.

If I put on my "truther" hat, I might say "The structure survived the initial damage from the collapse of WTC 1 and 2 - if the fires weren't wide spread enough, or hot enough, why did they collapse"

Anyhow, I think Architect now has a better idea of Red's stance.

Hopefully, the debate will progress.
 
Without getting into too much detail in the debate between holycanoli (welcome, by the way, if belatedly) and gumboot, I have to weigh in on the subject with my experiences. Gumboot is entirely correct in every post of his, in my humble opinion, holy; the plain fact of the matter is, this attack was completely unprecedented in many ways. I work in the United States Intelligence Community; I am also a reserve Army officer, MOS 35D, or All Source Intelligence officer. In the year or so since I've begun working for the private company I work for who does contracting for the IC, I have brought the question of pre-knowledge of 9/11 up to nearly every intelligence professional I've met, and all of them have said the same thing; looking back, they can see the red flags and spot the links that they missed before, but PRIOR to 9/11, we assumed, erroneously I might add, that no one would attempt to again attack us on our own soil SUCCESSFULLY. Given that the last successful attack from an outside source (and by successful I mean caused the loss of dozens of lives and had a PROFOUND effect on policies and procedures) was Pearl Harbor, and more than fifty years had passed since then, can you blame us for becoming complacent? It's human nature to, in essence, forget that these things happen, especially if there is a long stretch of time between instances. I call this theory (with thanks to TAM, who I believe coined the term) LIHOIA, or Let It Happen Out of Ignorance and Arrogance.

I've seen you mention the 45 minute time frame on several occasions, but as gumboot stated once, that timeframe is, in fact, erroneous in that the FAA did not inform the military (whom, I might add, did NOT have access to the radar coverage the FAA did; their radar was focused outward, not inward) until approximately 16 minutes before flight 77 struck the Pentagon that it was hijacked. The second that word came down, fighters from Langley AFB were scrambled, but as (once again) gumboot stated, the average time from scramble orders being received to the planes getting in the air is around fifteen minutes.

That being said, I can understand your point, I think. Please correct me if I'm making the wrong interpretation, but you are saying that there should have been preventative measures taken immediately after flight 175 struck the second tower, in the form of a CAP being put into place over Washington, yes? I'm not so positive about the CAP portion of that, but I do feel that measures should have been taken more quickly, such as evacuating all potential target buildings nationwide (which would naturally include the Pentagon, the Capitol, the White House, etc) as quickly as was feasible. If that had occurred, we could have had a couple hundred less casualties, perhaps, but I'm not sure why you think a CAP over Washington would have been a deterrent. As several people here have stated, it would require a humongously desperate situation for the military to order a civilian aircraft to be shot down, especially if it were over a huge metropolis area like DC and the surrounding towns. The debris raining down would likely have killed more people than WERE killed in the Pentagon and would have had the added effect of having a giant hue and outcry against the government and the military for making that decision.

As for who is to blame in terms of the government, I'm of the opinion it has been established already, and I'm not sure what good a full on court martial or inquest would do, as there were so many involved. You've got the analysts, their supervisors, the military, and at least two branches of the government that all bear some measure of blame for allowing 9/11 to occur. I'm of the opinion that bearing the responsibility for nearly three thousand deaths that COULD have been prevented is punishment enough, and now efforts should be turned to finding what was wrong with the system and fixing it. The position of the Director of National Intelligence was created in response to the 9/11 attacks, and Director McConnell is making every effort to put all of the recommendations of the 9/11 commission into place. The Transportation Security Administration was formed in response to the attacks, and having worked with them temporarily on a project for my company, I can tell you they are making every effort to fix the holes in transportation (which includes aviation) security. The intel agencies are now making every attempt to work together and to share their information so as to avoid the circumstances that could lead to one agency having part of the information and another having the other part, and neither agency knowing that the remainder of the puzzle is in the other agency. Ultimately, in my considered opinion, the blame game does no one any good; it's better to focus on what we now know was wrong with our system and fix it.

My two cents. Oh, and a belated welcome to the other new folks as well.

Hello Sabrina,

Thanks for your addition. Also thanks for the warm welcome.

I'm on the public health end of preparedness (SNS Deployment etc...) and we're whipping the pony pretty hard right now fighting the complacency. A sidebar is the FEMA trainings (IS-700, IS-800 type of online courses) are static giving the same test in the same order to all participants. What would it take to scramble the questions as to not allow for a cut-and-paste effort to pass these exams? Two or four pages or source code. In the past we had employees who passed the course, printed out their answers and sent card copies to everybody in their section so they too can "pass" this course that deals with the ICS and NRP. We've addressed that internally but jeezus christ we haven't driven home the seriousness of our tasks yet. I wonder if we ever will.

Anyway, about your post. You got my sentiment pretty much correct.

Please correct me if I'm making the wrong interpretation, but you are saying that there should have been preventative measures taken immediately after flight 175 struck the second tower, in the form of a CAP being put into place over Washington, yes?

Mostly. I'm saying as soon as somebody mentioned that an internal plane was hi-jacked on native soil, we put up a full court defense. If you know the plane is hi-jacked in the NE for example, I think it makes sense to put as many assets (fighter aircraft, AWACS, E2s, jets using pilots as lookouts, anything) up in the air as possible.

According to CNN, they write the following about AA11:

8:43 AM: The FAA notifies NORAD that the plane has been hijacked.
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2002/america.remembers/flight175/frameset.exclude.html


This is Flight 11, not flight 175, or 77. The first plane to hit it's target.
8:43 AM. About 45 minutes before 77 hits the Pentagon. I asked this subsequent to your post I believe but when was the last time a US plane was an announced hijacking? I can't tell you and I'm asking because it is something that happens so infrequently that it should have rang some pretty loud alarms IMHO.

You know the flight is going from Boston to LAX so it is headed west. It took off at 8:14 AM so you shouldn't be looking for it over Nebraska--you know it is in the Northeast. True, it could be bearing down on the Trump Taj Mahal at that point. As Gummy described it, just because the transponder is off, doesn't mean it cannot be tracked but it is more difficult and cumbersome. Maybe we know where it is, maybe not. Anyway, you know it is in the Northeast.

So why not put anything you have up in the air just in case?

I realize that there is mass confusion. I realize that this is uncharted water. And you make a fantastic point that the shoot down may do more damage in human terms than the crash itself. I can see the morons out there calling in hi-jack hoaxes trying to get more planes shot down if that had taken place. You make a fantastic point that bears repeating. I'll go you one better, you put jets up there to shoot down possible incoming aircraft and innocent aircraft just trying to land become possible targets. There is a definite possibility of friendly fire incidents but that is neither here nor there. However, if we're apprehensive to shoot it down because of the collateral damage, why scramble anything at all then? A question for another time I suppose.

But getting back to my point, the hijacking has been reported to NORAD so the military was notified at 8:43 that there was a plane that was under the control of someone other than the pilot somewhere in the Northeastern United States. To me that is cause to go full court press on important possible targets. Maybe it would not have done any good but I'd like to think that it may have.
 
Who do you blame if a meteor wipes out L.A. ?

Don't be silly.



Yes. And if you ask me, the people who are to blame are THE ENTIRE WESTERN CIVILISATION.

Alrighty then.



Argument from personal incredulity.

Argument from personal belief that we can do better than letting planes hit targets and reliance upon men and women of uncommon valor on United 93.
Thank you very much.
 
Allright, lemme see if I understand you right?

WTC7 could have collapsed the way it happened if the fires burned hot enough?

Uh nope. I don't know how the bldg would've collapsed had the fires burned hotter.

If the question is, could the bldg collapse from extremely hot fires, my personal response would be, sure, I suppose it could happen.

The more important question is did the fires burn hot enough to make the bldg collapse?

I assure you I won't try and rephrase this again. Either someone will provide an answer, or we'll move on.
 
But still, if I'm in the Command Bunker and I hear the word hijacking, I'm launching whatever I can to secure the capitol airspace.
But you have the benefit of hindsight, knowing that the hijacked aircraft were going to be used as weapons rather than the traditional hijacking where the passengers are used as bargaining chips.

Do not underestimate how such hindsight may be colouring your expectations of how you would have reacted.

But getting back to my point, the hijacking has been reported to NORAD so the military was notified at 8:43 that there was a plane that was under the control of someone other than the pilot somewhere in the Northeastern United States. To me that is cause to go full court press on important possible targets.
Again, you have the benefit of hindsight in knowing the hijacked aircraft were going to be used as weapons. The folks actually in charge that day did not have that knowledge or expectation. This is an important point.
 
Last edited:
Hijackings to and from Cuba...

D.B. Cooper - hijacking for fun and profit...

In th 1970's skyjacking became something of a cottage industry. Metal detectors and airport security screenings were put in place as a reaction to the spate of skyjackings in the late 60s and early 70s. Before then there were virtually no security checks of passengers boarding planes...

I have got to thank you for the DB Cooper link. What a fascinating story. Everybody should read it.

The link to the cuban hi-jackings sort of underscores my point. The last one I could ascertain about a hi-jacking on native soil was apparently in 1980--21 years before 9/11. Hopefully for them and their careers, none of the same operators were at the controls between the two hijackings. Again, if I hear the word hi-jackings, I'm going "all in."

I can't really expect everybody to play the hand just like me but I would expect the military to do so. If anybody sits there and feels that this would be over-reactive, that is their opinion and I can respect that.
 
If they had scrambled fighters and shot down the airliners before they were used to hit the buildings, the populace would have been screaming for murder trials for all the fighter pilots.

"Ram the jets into buildings?!?!? PROVE IT! They probably just wanted a ransom for the hostages! YOU MURDERED THOSE POOR PEOPLE ON THOSE PLANES WITH YOUR TEXAS COWBOY ATTITUDE!!! IMPEACHMENT NOW!!!"

I can see the NY Times headlines clear as day. Quoting expert after expert, "There is NO indication anywhere in the history of hijacked planes that any were intended to be used as missiles..."

Please. The administration would have been crucified.
 
The more important question is did the fires burn hot enough to make the bldg collapse?
It was either that or silent, invisible bombs going off. Lots of video of fires, and smoke pouring out of every floor for hours. No evidence at all of bombs... damn this is a tough call, weighing mountains of evidence against no evidence, but I'm going with the fires.
 
Can I ask a question first?

Red, do you accept that failure of steel structures due to fires is not just possible per se but is an accepted fire engineering risk, or are you only talking about WTC?

What do you mean, "only talking about WTC"?

I sincerely apologize for answering a question with a question, but the original question should always be, why did WTC 7 collapse?

Can we agree that we don't have an answer yet?

Red

I'm trying to establish the common ground, inasmuch I once ended up with an argument not as to the structure of WTC (and hence susceptibility to failure) but rather the general performance of steel within normal fire loadings as the correspondent understood steel to be inherrently and excessivley resistant to the effects of fire.

So to put it another way, do you accept that normal fire loadings can and do cause failure in steel structures, albeit that other issues such as extant passive fire protection may mitigate such issues?

Please provide the instances when "normal fire loadings [...] caused failure in steel structures."

And if I may, please make sure the collapses are total or consistent with what occured to WTC 7, not simply partial or local collapse.

Red

Am I to take it from your comments that you do not accept that normal fire loadings can cause failure in steel structures generally? Or is there a WTC7-specific issue?

I shouldn't expect such examples, I guess.

Answer the question so that we can get started on the discussion proper. Are you disputing that normal fire loadings can cause failure in steel structures generally?

No, I'm not disputing that they can. I'm asking if they did.

Why is it so hard for Truthers to just give a response to a question?

Maybe it's just me, but if someone asks a question in a debate that I'm not comfortable with, be it how it's stated or what it insinuates, I just answer the question, clarify the point I'm trying to make and ask the other person if they need me to clarify further.

That saves me a lot of typing rather than dancing The Evasion.
 
Please provide the instances when "normal fire loadings [...] caused failure in steel structures."

And if I may, please make sure the collapses are total or consistent with what occured to WTC 7, not simply partial or local collapse.

takethat.gif


http://fallenbrothers.com/community/showthread.php?t=3899

Will this do?
 
Why is it so hard for Truthers to just give a response to a question?


Paranoia would be my guess. They're afraid that the questions are a trap being set to expose their ignorance. The last thing truthers want is for it to be known that they don't know anything about anything...
 
Perhaps you know...when was the last time a plane was hi-jacked in the US? I can't remember a time it happened. I'm not pleading ignorance to be a smart-ass but I really cannot remember a time it happened where a flight leaving a US city was hi-jacked over the US.

Actually you might be surprised. There is a long history of hijacking of flights between the US and Cuba, with the earliest being in 1958 and the most recent being in May this year. Although most were going from Cuba to the US, some were going the other way.

I don't know how extensive Wikipedia's list is, but on their list the most recent pre-9/11 US-to-Cuba hijacking was August 14th, 2001, although it doesn't mention if it was a commercial airliner or not, and the source requires subscription. The latest one I can confirm as a civilian airliner was September 13th, 1980 (Delta Airlines). Prior to that the next earliest was November 10th 1972 (Southern Airways).

These are, of course, only hijackings connected to Cuba. Wikipedia has an extensive list of aviation accidents and incidents in the USA, however I don't have the urge to look through every single one looking for hijackings.

List of Cuba-US Aircraft Hijackings
Accidents and Incidents on Commercial Airliners in the United States


To me, this would ring one hell of a loud bell that in my previous opinion should have sat off a hair-trigger response that something is up.

That's exactly what it did, which is why the poster "CheapShot" decided to try get hold of NORAD directly, rather than just use the standard protocol.


But still, if I'm in the Command Bunker and I hear the word hijacking, I'm launching whatever I can to secure the capitol airspace. "Just go take a look." We waste trillions upon trillions every year on all sorts of stuff. Sending Maverick up there to take a look may be expensive but we'll pay for the jet fuel later on.


I think you've missed something. What you described above is exactly what happened. From one of the articles I have previously linked:

The 121st squadron's day had started normally. Three F-16s were flying an air-to-ground training mission on a range in North Carolina, 180 naut. mi. away. At Andrews, several officers were in a scheduling meeting when they received word that the World Trade Center had been hit by an aircraft. Minutes later, after United Airlines Flight 175 slammed into the second WTC tower, a squadron pilot called a friend in the Secret Service "to see what was going on. He was told some bad things were happening. At that time, we weren't thinking about defending anything. Our primary concern was what would happen to the air traffic system," said Lt. Col. Marc H. (Sass) Sasseville, the current 121st FS commander. On Sept. 11, he was the director of operations and air operations officer--the acting operations group commander under the 113th Wing.

Soon thereafter, the Secret Service called back, asking whether the squadron could get fighters airborne. The unit's maintenance section was notified to get several F-16s armed and ready to fly. Anticipating such an order, Col. Don C. Mozley, the 113th Logistics Group commander, had already ordered his weapons officer to "break out the AIM-9s and start building them up." The missiles had to be transported from a bunker on the other side of the base, which would take a while.

"After the Pentagon was hit, we were told there were more [airliners] coming. Not 'might be'; they were coming," Mozley recalled.

Sasseville grabbed three F-16 pilots and gave them a curt briefing: "I have no idea what's going on, but we're flying. Here's our frequency. We'll split up the area as we have to. Just defend as required. We'll talk about the rest in the air." All four grabbed their helmets, g-suits and parachute harnesses, and headed for the operations desk to get aircraft assignments.

Another call from the Secret Service commanded, "Get in the air now!" Almost simultaneously, a call from someone else in the White House declared the Washington area "a free-fire zone. That meant we were given authority to use force, if the situation required it, in defense of the nation's capital, its property and people," Sasseville said.

Source

So here's the sequence of events:

1. WTC1 hit
2. WTC2 hit
3. Logistics officer anticipates request for fighters and orders them armed
4. Secret Service requests armed fighters
5. Pentagon is hit
6. Squadron are told additional hijacked aircraft are inbound
7. Pilots are briefed and prepared to launch without weapons
8. Secret Service tells them to put aircraft in the air immediately
9. Washington DC is declared a free fire zone
10. Two unarmed fighters take off
11. Two armed fighters follow 10 minutes later
12. Two fighters return from a training mission and are told to immediately take off again with low fuel and no weapons

What you don't seem to understand is that scrambling non-alert fighters simply doesn't happen immediately. It takes time.

NORAD had the only four fighters in the area ready to fly. The first pair were scrambled straight away, and they thought about scrambling the second pair at 0903, but chose to hold off because they were concerned about having both pairs run out of fuel at the same time leaving them unable to maintain a CAP. When things got more hairy they scrambled the second pair anyway, while meanwhile they were calling every available air base looking for fighters.



Having read your posts, I can now say that you're right. But I still cannot believe that we are so vulnerable and apparently still are unless we have crews sitting cockpit ready on the tarmac which we do not have. If the best we could do is what we did, that isn't good enough in my view. Something needs to change.


It has. The number of alert sites has been drastically increased, there are 24/7 randomly allocated CAPS, there is AWACS, the FAA and NORAD have more direct communication links, the hijacking protocols have been amended so that any loss of contact results in an intercept, and NORAD now also respond to domestic incidents.

I am confident, were 9/11 to happen again today, that three of the four flights would be shot down before reaching their targets (UA175 crashed 16 minutes after it was hijacked making an interception pretty much impossible even if the military scrambled fighters instantly).

-Gumboot
 
Please provide the instances when "normal fire loadings [...] caused failure in steel structures."

And if I may, please make sure the collapses are total or consistent with what occured to WTC 7, not simply partial or local collapse.


$60,000 Steel Hay Shed collapses due to fire, February 25, 2007

Kader Toy Factory, May 10, 1993

McCormick Place Exhibition Hall, Chicago, January 16, 1967

Sight And Sound Theatre, Strasburg, January 28, 1997

Windsor Tower, Madrid, February 12, 2005 - steel component of structure suffers total collapse

It's worth pointing out that none of these buildings suffered structural damage prior to the fire starting.

-Gumboot
 
Mostly. I'm saying as soon as somebody mentioned that an internal plane was hi-jacked on native soil, we put up a full court defense. If you know the plane is hi-jacked in the NE for example, I think it makes sense to put as many assets (fighter aircraft, AWACS, E2s, jets using pilots as lookouts, anything) up in the air as possible.


I know you're not really paying attention, but it makes no sense whatsoever to do that for a single standard hijacking. I don't think you have any appreciation of how enormous an effort it would be to get all of that airborne. It would take hours. And in fact it did... after UA175 hit WTC2 and it became obvious this was not a normal hijacking at all, what you describe above is exactly what NORAD started to do. By mid afternoon they had over 300 fighters in the air flying CAP missions, supported by AWACS, tankers, and so forth.

I must confess I'm getting frustrated repeating myself. Those sorts of resources are not held in a state of readiness unless something in the global political climate calls for it. The US military were at DEFCON 5 on 9/11. Getting those sorts of assets in the air takes many hours.

(And let's not forget that NORAD's immediate response to that first call was to dedicate 50% of all their assets to the task).

-Gumboot
 
I saw a documentary on National Geographic the other night - "Aircrash Investigation".

The episode dealt with the attempted hijacking of a Fed Ex Fl 705 in April 1994.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FedEx_Flight_705

An employee (an ex navy pilot and was at that time a flght engineer for Fed Ex) hitched a ride on a Fed Ex plane on the jump seat (Fed Ex employees at that time were entitled to free flights on the jump seat).

His intention was to hijack the plane and use it to fly into the Fed Ex headquaters in Memphis. His attempts were foiled by the actions of the pilots and the engineer.

I think that had he succeeded in incapacitating the pilots, this would have been the first case of a suicide hijacking, 7 years before 911.

One thing I noted, during the whole episode, is that no mention was made of scrambling fighters. The ATC, were uncertain for some time if the hijacking was succesful or not.

I wonder if some kind of precedent (with regards to dealing with hijacked planes) would have been set, should his mission have succeeded?

Another interisting aspect of this flight, is that the pilot, in order to try offset the attacker, put the plane (a DC-10) into some violent manouvers - rolled the aircraft almost upside down (this was also observed by the fact that bloody footprints from the attacker and the pilots were found on the ceiling), put it in a dive, banked at extreme angles and so forth. He also maxed out the speed in a dive.

The pilot said that the airspeed indicator had stopped at its maximum point, and he was still accelerating. I'm not sure what speed a DC-10 must be travelling at for its airspeed indicator to reach maximum, but the figure they showed in the program (they did not say anything official, its just what I saw on the dial - could be wrong) was somewhere around Mach 0.8. They claim he flew the DC-10 faster than it had ever been flown before.

The plane never crashed. It landed safely. So much for the claims that commercial airliners can't travel at such high speeds and manouver to such extremes.

Be interisting to see the FDR data for this flight.
 
"It just seems impossible to me that an attack like this could be perpetrated by cave-dwelling arabs..."

I'm sorry if this has already been addressed elsewhere...

I have seen this question (and many variants) raised on many occasions, and it is precisely this kind of arrogance (be it conscious or unconscious) that ensured the attack on 9/11 was such a success for Al Queda.

It succeeded simply because nobody was expecting it, and did not think 'the enemy' capable of carrying it out. Underestimation through arrogance.
 
What part of it is "pat"? And to what coincidences do you refer?

If you are talking about security measures taken by governments during wartime, it is hardly a coincidence that measures taken during previous wars are reflected in part in a new war. We don't seem to have quite as many internment camps this time around, though.

Hi PM,

Well, coming from the CT believer camp prior to 911 taking place, the events of that day did seem to fit very well into the pre-established pattern of manipulation and control that I have been articulating.

Of course, to someone not believing in CTs prior to 911 it would likely not seem to have such a ker-ching affect.

Nick
 

Back
Top Bottom