Formal Auschwitz gas chambers debate

[Chaos]

*snip*
So this doesn't "keep people on their toes"; on the contrary, it makes people more coplacent and dismissive of diverse points of view, due to the contant cires of "wolf!"

All of this applies not only to the Holocaust, but to evolution. There's a lot of important research that isn't being done because it's simply too closely associated with creationism. Evolution vs. creationism is not about science vs. faith, it is about truth vs. likes, highmindedness vs. pettiness, cooperation vs. competition.

Exactly what kind of "important research" are you talking about? What exactly are we missing by treating creationism (or holocaust denial, for that matter) as the BS that it is?

 

[Hutch]

I
I don't know which group Mr. Romanov belongs to--whether he is a "true believer" in the claim that the holocaust is a jewish lie, or whether he is merely decieved by true believers into accepting their "we just want to keep historians on their toes" claim at face value.

Skeptic--see my post above. Sergei is a member of the VERITAS TEAM, which is DEFENDING that Holocaust account from those who would cast doubt upon it.

You may disagree with his opinions, but to say the above shows that (1) You did not look at the links, (2) You did not fully read the thread or (3) You are a dunderhead.

I'd really prefer if it was 1 or 2--then it just makes you look foolish.

 

[Chaos]

Skeptic--see my post above. Sergei is a member of the VERITAS TEAM, which is DEFENDING that Holocaust account from those who would cast doubt upon it.

You may disagree with his opinions, but to say the above shows that (1) You did not look at the links, (2) You did not fully read the thread or (3) You are a dunderhead.

I'd really prefer if it was 1 or 2--then it just makes you look foolish.

The problem is that even discussing holocaust denial as if it were a serious scientific/historical theory grants it far too much importance. Besides, it can make people think "Gosh, they aren´t so sure about this holocaust thing after all - I mean, just look at it, they´re still discussing whether or not it actually happened".

In case of the Holocaust, this is even more so than with, say, evolution or plate tectonics or something - these are mere the theories that explain the facts best by far, while the Holocaust is the fact.

 

[CFLarsen]

True.

There is one crucial difference between the Holocaust and other issues of skeptical interest: We can actually say with absolute certainty that the Holocaust happened. We can't say with the same degree of certainty if somebody went for a ride with the aliens to Venus.

So, it isn't a matter of investigating the evidence pro / con the Holocaust. The Holocaust happened - millions were killed and gassed to death in an industrialized genocide. It is a matter of investigating the revisionists claims and point out where they go wrong.

We should definitely not ignore the political undertones in this either.

 

[davefoc]

I think I disagree a bit Chaos.

I am somewhat neutral on the issue of whether holocaust deniers have caused legitimate historians to be more careful with their research or to inspire them to think outside the box. I have followed the arguments above and just didn't form a strong opinion one way or the other.

But, I think that the discussion of holocaust denial is useful in refuting some of the ideas of the holocaust deniers to society at large.

I think some people that have written above have underestimated the sophistication of some of the holocaust denier writings. These, at least for some of the ones I have seen, are not raving anti-semitic articles, nor are they articles that over stretch to the point that it is immediately obvious that their view is false. This coupled with what appears to be a sort of PC movement to shut down people who question the generally accepted facts of the holocaust, can make these people seem credible and confronting them and their arguments is important I think.

To some degree, this is sort of the same argument as to whether organizations like JREF are useful. I don't think there are many scientists out there whose research is affected by dowsing, homeopathy, and astrology claims. But large numbers of people believe those claims and to the degree that JREF can promote more widespread knowledge about the false nature of those claims, it succeeds.

 

[Hutch]

Chaos, Claus, I am in complete agreement with you that the Holocaust happened beyond any shawdow of doubt.

What I was perturbed about was that 'Zilla and Skeptic were apparently lumping Sergei in as a "Holocaust Denier", which showed, IMHO, an appallng lack of understanding on their part. And I thought it was worth correcting. That was all.

As for the disagreement between Cleon and Sergei on confronting (keep historians on their toes)vs. ignoring (not worthy of time or debate) Holocaust deniers, I am still undecided.

Hopefully Cleon and Sergie will pass over this modest rerouting and continue.

 

[Chaos]

Chaos, Claus, I am in complete agreement with you that the Holocaust happened beyond any shawdow of doubt.

I never questioned that, and neither does Claus - nor Zilla and Skeptic, I guess.

What I was perturbed about was that 'Zilla and Skeptic were apparently lumping Sergei in as a "Holocaust Denier", which showed, IMHO, an appallng lack of understanding on their part. And I thought it was worth correcting. That was all.

As for the disagreement between Cleon and Sergei on confronting (keep historians on their toes)vs. ignoring (not worthy of time or debate) Holocaust deniers, I am still undecided.

Hopefully Cleon and Sergie will pass over this modest rerouting and continue.

The problem is that what Sergei and this discussion forum he is from are doing is pretty much the same as granting "equal time" to creationism - and I have pretty much the same problem with it. Granting an item of religious (creationism) or political (holocaust denial) dogma "equal time" to undeniable fact (the holocaust) or a thoroughly researched and supported scientific theory (evolution) grants the dogma a legitimation and authority that it would never posess, were we only to take into account logic and pervasiveness of arguments.
We might just as well rationally discuss the theory that the jews did, indeed, eat X-ian babies, or that the world is a disc sitting on the back of a giant turtle. They are no more and no less founded in fact and evidence that holocaust denial and creationism.

 

[rikzilla]

Ah for the love of Ed....

Rik, did you even bother to READ this thread? Or go to the debate site Sergey linked and READ some of the comments?

To quote Sergey in one of his posts here:



That's the team DEFENDING the historical accuracy of the Holocaust, Lizard-Brain. A quick look at the Opening Statement of the Veritas team would confim that.

The argument is between people who [ALLl believe the Holocaust happened,,,,,but are hung up on the relatively minor point if historians are 'kept on their toes' by holocaust deniers (Sergey's position) or if historians simply ignore them as inconsequntial (Cleon's position). The discussion has been sharp but polite to date and I've enjoyed following it, until you managed to completely misread it.

That's it. No flame needed. Go beat on somebody in the Bush threads. Move along. Move along.

Sorry to have disturbed your peace Hutch. No, I have not read the Veritas link provided by Sergey. Perhaps he is what he says he is, yet his posts read like the opening lines of every HD'er I've ever had the misfortune of reading. Since I've been there and done that far too many times.

Of course we at least do know that there's no real historical problem with the Holocaust...and there's no more need to keep historians "on their toes" about the Holocaust than there is to keep them on their toes about the reign of Henry VIII or the US Civil War.

As far as the tone of this thread goes, you have no more say here than I do. I stand by my opinion of Sergey...he waddles and quacks like a garden variety HD'er. I just call 'em like I see 'em.

-z

 

[davefoc]

rik,
Mostly you seem like a reasonable fellow and I certainly don't want to start a pissing contest here, but do you ever just say whoops, I was wrong? I read your first post and thought, that maybe I'd say something, but didn't because I thought you might read the thread a little more carefully and figure out that you'd missed the point a bit.

Now it looks like what's happened here is that you initially formed an opinion not consistent with the facts but nonetheless, based on some sort of self assessed infallibilty, you wrote that last goof ball post.

OK, maybe it is possible that rikzilla is infallible, I can't disprove that categorically any more than I can disprove a pink unicorn hypothesis categorically but frankly both ideas seem unlikely to be true.

 

[rikzilla]

rik,
Mostly you seem like a reasonable fellow and I certainly don't want to start a pissing contest here, but do you ever just say whoops, I was wrong? I read your first post and thought, that maybe I'd say something, but didn't because I thought you might read the thread a little more carefully and figure out that you'd missed the point a bit.

Well Dave when I am wrong I will always admit it, I always have. This however is not a good subject to pin me down on. Why not go over to the airliner/laser thread if you want to see a mea culpa from mea. It's there, and pre-dates your post here that I'm answering.

Look, if I'm wrong about Sergey there's plenty of time to hang my head in shame later...after it becomes apparent that Sergey is what he says he is, and not what I think he is.

Just as Mr. Randi dismisses some claimants for the prize out of hand due to kookiness, I tend to dismiss all HD'ers for the same reason. Debating (testing) them is a waste of time and I'm not getting any younger.

Sergey fits a profile,..perhaps I am wrong about him but I doubt it and it's just not that important either way. Maybe if he had linked to Veritas to prove his good intentions first??? But he didn't. His first link is to a message board run by RODOH . Click that link to the RODOH homepage...scroll down and gaze at Sergey's unbiased "source". Still think I have him pegged wrong??

Now it looks like what's happened here is that you initially formed an opinion not consistent with the facts but nonetheless, based on some sort of self assessed infallibilty, you wrote that last goof ball post.

My original assertion stands. What walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...is a friggin duck!

OK, maybe it is possible that rikzilla is infallible, I can't disprove that categorically any more than I can disprove a pink unicorn hypothesis categorically but frankly both ideas seem unlikely to be true.

I am not, nor have I ever claimed to be infallible. But I'm not wrong about Sergey. Let's examine RODOH since it's the only real link Sergey provided;

During the fall semester of 1997, Bradley Smith, "director" of the self-styled "Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust," (CODOH) launched a new salvo in his continuing propaganda campaign to deny the reality of the Holocaust. He is attempting to place an ad in college newspapers around the country that promises $50,000 to anyone "convincing a national television network to air" a ninety minute video that attempts to show the universally accepted account of Nazi genocide is false. The ad is clearly a ploy. Smith must know his money is safe because no TV network would broadcast such a video.

So why does he go to the trouble? The answer can be found at the bottom of the ad. "If you are interested in earning $50,000 . . . you will find the details of this offer on the World Wide Web" at the CODOH web site. It's the old bait and switch. Smith, who has announced that he is "taking my show to the Internet" is trying to entice college students and others to his web site where he peddles his barely disguised anti-Semitism.

For a long time Bradley Smith has tried to present himself as an honest chap, a champion of intellectual freedom simply seeking an "open debate"about the "holocaust controversy [sic]." But this debate is a sham. The so-called holocaust controversy does not exist. It is the invention of a collection of long-time anti-Semites and apologists for Hitler.

Link

So CODOH = Comittee for the Open Debate of the Holocaust,...and are dyed-in-the-wool deniers. But what is RODOH? could it at least be legit??

Google

It's all the same crap Dave. I know you like to think the best of people...but Sergey is scum. He doesn't deserve your happy vibes. The likes of him prey upon the likes of you...to the detriment of the rest of us.

-z

 

[CFLarsen]

Still think I have him pegged wrong??

Perhaps it is time for a clarification, then.

Sergey_Romanov,

Do you believe that millions of Jews were killed in gas chambers?

 

[headscratcher4]

Better still: do you believe that it was the overt and covert policy of the highest leadership of the government of Nazi Germany to exterminate Jews throughout Europe, and that to accomplish this goal they established concentration camps where the Nazi government built and used gas chambers to accomplish this end, killing millions in the process?

In short, I am with Rik. I think Sergey fudged the answer about whether he believes the holocaust took place as recorded by most modern and respectable historians, and he should state flat out whether he believes extermination was state policy, and whether he believes millions of Jews, specifically (as well as millions of others) died as a specific relsult of a state policy of extermination.

 

[CFLarsen]

We shall see if we get a clear answer or not.

 

[renata]

Better still: do you believe that it was the overt and covert policy of the highest leadership of the government of Nazi Germany to exterminate Jews throughout Europe, and that to accomplish this goal they established concentration camps where the Nazi government built and used gas chambers to accomplish this end, killing millions in the process?

In short, I am with Rik. I think Sergey fudged the answer about whether he believes the holocaust took place as recorded by most modern and respectable historians, and he should state flat out whether he believes extermination was state policy, and whether he believes millions of Jews, specifically (as well as millions of others) died as a specific relsult of a state policy of extermination.

I agree with you. This seems to be the classic "what if" game played by the deniers. Sure, sure, X was evil, but there is a discrepancy on the shoe size of the janitor of the police station in the village of Smirnovka- so what if the whole thing is an elaborate fraud?


Sergey, otkuda ti pishesh? Ty seichas na zapade ili v Rossie?

 

[zenith-nadir]

Better still: do you believe that it was the overt and covert policy of the highest leadership of the government of Nazi Germany to exterminate Jews throughout Europe...

The Wannsee Conference was the first time the Nazis "went public" regarding the final solution.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Exactly what kind of "important research" are you talking about? What exactly are we missing by treating creationism (or holocaust denial, for that matter) as the BS that it is?

You misunderstand me. It's not that we're missing research by treating them as BS, but that legitimate research is being drowned out by the BS.

 

[Dancing David]

THere is real problem for the Holocaust deniers, they focus solely on the Jewish people who were erxterminated. But thirteen million died in the camps. There were French 'volunteer workers', there were gypsies, there were Slavs, there was anyone who was considered an enemy of the State.

It is not just about anti-semitism it is about building the death camps in Poland because they planned to gas all the Poles next.

The Sonderkommando went around digging up the mass graves of the exterminated on the eastern front. Why? Just so idiots could claim that it had never happened.


edited to remove smarky comment

If you look at the postings of the Veritas team you will see that at least thier postings are very much against the Deniers. I read the most recent post of the Veritas team, it would appear that the Negatory team is a bunch of demented dufusi.

 

[Cleopatra]

For me the question is are the Holocaust revisionists engaging in an honest questioning of mainstream history with regard to the holocaust or are they just serving as conspiracy theory gadflies attempting to sway public opinion by dragging a discussion down into a battle over minutia that obscures the basic truths of the overall situation.

After reading through quite a bit of the material you linked to and an article in Wikipedia, It still looks to me like the latter is the case.

Conspiracy theorists abound on thousands of subjects and their approach is quite similar I think. Rather than an attempt assess available evidence in an unbiased way, they attempt to turn the discussion into a review of some isolated minutia which they have become experts on. Their thought seems to be that if the particular piece of minutia that they are hanging their argument on can be shown to favor their view then the other available evidence can be discarded based on the theory that if some evidence is tainted than all evidence is tainted.

Right now it looks like the holocaust revisionists are nothing more than routine conspiracy theory wackos whose arguments and discussions have little value if one is attempting to determine the truth of the situation.

Do you disagree?

There you are again with your subtle passive-aggressive innocent style.... Have you ever talked to anybody about your problems with the Jews?


edited to add:I read the whole thread and I don't take a iota back from my post above.

You are the master of the subtle anti-semitism in this forum.

Read that until you absorbe it and start screaming. I don't give a dime and I hold on my opinion.

 

[a_unique_person]

Well Dave when I am wrong I will always admit it, I always have. This however is not a good subject to pin me down on. Why not go over to the airliner/laser thread if you want to see a mea culpa from mea. It's there, and pre-dates your post here that I'm answering.

And plagiarism?

 

[a_unique_person]

If the idea was stir up a 'skeptical debate' here, and try to make some think that the Holocaust was a fraud, then that has clearly failed. IIRC, not one person here has ever claimed it was.