Formal Auschwitz gas chambers debate

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Cleon said:
Oh Sergey, when was the soap story officially debunked? Don't dance, answer the question.

Since we know that the rise of the revisionist movement was in the 60s and 70s, culminating in the publishing of Irving's book, establishing a causual relationship should be easy.

I have already established this link. So you're the one dancing around here. The rise or the peak of the denial movement was after Butz's book was published and with the foundation of IHR. Before that it wasn't really a movement, just some nutjobs who wrote several books. One of the first known debunkings of the soap story is by Lipstadt in 1981, and in her letter she directly links it to the creation of IHR.
 
Mr Manifesto said:
Read, "The Nazi Doctors" by Robert Jay Lifton. Until you do, don't waste my time with any of your "Veritas" crap.

And how is this book relevant? Judging by your dismissal of Veritas' brilliant opening statement which proves the existence of the gas chambers, you actually deny that gas chambers existed. You're kinda inconsistent.
 
Sergey_Romanov said:
I have already established this link. So you're the one dancing around here. The rise or the peak of the denial movement was after Butz's book was published and with the foundation of IHR. Before that it wasn't really a movement, just some nutjobs who wrote several books. One of the first known debunkings of the soap story is by Lipstadt in 1981, and in her letter she directly links it to the creation of IHR.

So Lipstadt--who's obsessed with the Holocaust deniers almost to a fault--responds to them in this letter to the editor.

But historians as a whole never really believed the soap story, did they? It was more of a rumor.

This, in your view, is "proof" that Holocaust deniers "keep historians on their toes."

Yep. I'm impressed. Reaaally impressed. I imagine every WWII researcher goes to bed at night thinking, "gee, I better make sure that Mark Weber can't find any more openings in the Holocaust story."
 
So Lipstadt--who's obsessed with the Holocaust deniers almost to a fault--responds to them in this letter to the editor.

How is her "obsession" with deniers ("almost to a fault"?!) since 1987 is relevant to her letter in 1981?

But historians as a whole never really believed the soap story, did they? It was more of a rumor.

And so? Why do you repeat this red herring?

This, in your view, is "proof" that Holocaust deniers "keep historians on their toes."

One piece of evidence.

Yep. I'm impressed. Reaaally impressed.

I couldn't care less whether you are or not.

I imagine every WWII researcher goes to bed at night thinking, "gee, I better make sure that Mark Weber can't find any more openings in the Holocaust story."

We weren't talking about WWII researchers in general, were we?

As for the influence on the Holocaust researchers... Just one more example: here's an article in a peer-reviewed scholarly journal "Holocaust and Genocide Studies" dealing specifically with deniers' slogan "No Holes, No Holocaust!":

http://hgs.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/18/1/68

Why, oh why such a respected and scholarly journal would concern itself with debunking such an ignorant "revisionist" slogan?
 
Sergey_Romanov said:
Er, did you have a point? I pointed out that they got off their asses too late. Berenbaum says:


10-15 years? Did they use it before, then? Didn't it occur to them that there was no evidence for this story _before_ this period, which "coincided" with the rise of the denial?



So what? OK, if you don't like this researcher from SWC, here's one not connected to it:

http://www.vex.net/~nizkor/features/techniques-of-denial/appendix-7-02.html



http://www.vex.net/~nizkor/features/techniques-of-denial/appendix-7-01.html

Where have I seen this before, huh? :]

And here's more:



http://www.vex.net/~nizkor/features/techniques-of-denial/appendix-5-02.html



Most historians (with exception of Feig, and maybe others) didn't propagate the story, at least not in their scholarly works (see Berenbaum's quote above). But neither did they resist its propagation, some of them even believed it, as was shown. Since the public rejections of the soap story are relatively late and coincide with the rise of Holocaust denial, and since in all instances I cited it there was a warning of not giving deniers fodder, it is only logical to conclude that historians WERE and ARE paying attention.

:)

When you have a slam dunk case like the holocaust, I can understand a few minor inconsistencies being overlooked. Calling them lazy, well, if the overhwlming evidence is there, I can understand them concentrating on the most obvious and leaving the rest. There was a lot more that happened in WWII, and the 20 century, than just the holocaust. Much of it is more open to debate and interpretation and investigation.

Historians: Holocaust happened, millions were killed?

Yep.

Why did Hitler invade the USSR instead of England?

Rabble, rabble, rabble rabble.

Why did Hitler hate Jews so much?

rabble, rabble, rabble rabble,
 
There seems to be some acrimony directed at Sergey_Romanov. I am not sure I understand the basis for it. I would like to express how a person who is less familiar than most of you seem to be to the holocaust arguments felt about the debate he linked to and the holocaust denier/revisionist debunkers in general.

First, I had an immediate revoltion to the notion of an academic style debate about something which had a negative impact on so many people's lives. The sense from the debate was that the participants were playing a sort of intellectual game with a very serious subject.

Secondly, I thought the effort was worthwhile. The various things that I have read by holocaust deniers/revisionists at times come across as the reasonable questioning of history. That is, it is not immediately obvious that the work is being produced by crackpots.

I have read a bit of what Michael Shermer has to say about the arguments of the holocaust deniers and a bit of what other people have to say. The problem with these kind of sources is that they are done by selectively taking what the deniers/revisionists say and responding to it. In the debate format one can at least be sure that the deniers/revisionists get their points out unedited.

Personally, I am not only skeptical about things like religion, I am also skeptical of the truth of generally accepted history. So when somebody questions generally accepted history in an apparently rational way I at least will try to understand what they are saying enough to form an independent view of who to believe and not believe. A big part of who I believe and don't believe in most subjects where I'm not going to become an expert is what various experts on both sides of the issue have to say and I found the debate format produced useful information in my decision process about what to believe about the holocaust.
 
Holocaust denial is definitely a serious issue, that needs to be countered. Don't think for a moment that this is a closed issue. There are serious political notes to this.
 
Firstly, thank you Sergey.

You have managed to make something happen that is even rarer than an Indian Ocean tsunami...you got the very contentious Manifesto, Cleon, Mycroft, AUP, Claus and myself to all agree that you represent a particularly heinous little group of meme propagating woos. Congratulations, the JREF left and right finally agree...you are at best credulous...and at worst a Nazi apologist.

You are indeed lucky Sergey, if you wish you may travel to TAM3 and meet Dr. Shermer for yourself. It was his book about Holocaust deniers, their reasons and methods, which eventually led me to the JREF forum. It's been awhile since I read Shermer, but I remember that he did explain the whole "soap story". It was true that the Nazis made a limited amount of this soap as an experiment, and that word of it got out as a rumor. Most Jews wouldn't use soap ever after in the camps....yet the story itself grew larger so that most Holocaust survivors took it as gospel that their relatives were turned into soap.

The soap story being proved mostly untrue really is meaningless though. The real issue at hand is; Did the Holocaust happen? Of course it did. Those people may not have been turned into soap, but they are still just as dead.

The serial killer Ed Gein made lampshades out of the skins of his victims. If someone comes along and conclusively proves that he never made such lampshades what would it matter? His victims are still just as dead. Such is your soap story. You concentrate on that, yet the soap story is a piece of minutae...in the meantime the mountainous pile of Holocaust dead casts a historical shadow that it seems only you are blind to. So, tell us then, why do you insist on using the existence of a tiny mole-hill to attempt to debunk the fact of the mountain?? What is your point? I think we all can see what it is, but why don't you just come out and say it out loud?

-z
 
rikzilla said:
..you are at best credulous...and at worst a Nazi apologist.

Ah for the love of Ed....

Rik, did you even bother to READ this thread? Or go to the debate site Sergey linked and READ some of the comments?

To quote Sergey in one of his posts here:

But for those who didn't understand yet, I'm in the Veritas Team.

That's the team DEFENDING the historical accuracy of the Holocaust, Lizard-Brain. A quick look at the Opening Statement of the Veritas team would confim that.

The argument is between people who [ALLl believe the Holocaust happened,,,,,but are hung up on the relatively minor point if historians are 'kept on their toes' by holocaust deniers (Sergey's position) or if historians simply ignore them as inconsequntial (Cleon's position). The discussion has been sharp but polite to date and I've enjoyed following it, until you managed to completely misread it.

That's it. No flame needed. Go beat on somebody in the Bush threads. Move along. Move along.
 
I am always amazed at the motivations to deny the holocaust. What would make a person want to deny such a thing took place? Are the documents, pictures and survivors not enough to debunk "the denial". What kind of a psyche needs to deny such an event took place?
 
ZN,
I think there are many biases that might influence a person to want to believe that the holocaust didn't exist or that it has been exaggerated. These are my thoughts on what some of them might be.

1. For many (perhaps most) historical events there are people arguing contrarian positions. It is the nature of humans to want to believe we have some special knowledge or analytical ability and I suspect that some of the people arguing these contrarian positions are satisfying that human need.

2. It would be nice to think that civilized society is not capable of the horrors of the holocaust and it just feels better to believe that the horrors have been exagerated and/or misrepresented than that they happened as is generally accepted.

3. Denying the holocaust is a sort of validation of anti-semetic views. I think the thought goes something like, the Jews didn't really suffer that much, they made up most of it as part of a vast conspiracy to milk sympathy and reparations from the world.
 
zenith-nadir said:
I am always amazed at the motivations to deny the holocaust. What would make a person want to deny such a thing took place? Are the documents, pictures and survivors not enough to debunk "the denial". What kind of a psyche needs to deny such an event took place?

I think the basic idea is... to convince people the Nazi's didn't kill so many Jews... so people think the Nazi's weren't so bad... so that Nazi's can gain popular support and power again... so they can kill some more Jews.
 
CF Larsen, if you derail this thread by starting another catfight with shanek...:jedi:


Z-N, I also monitor Creationists and Moon Hoax folks, and I think they (except for the Nazis and virulent Anti-Semites, who are unreachable) share a massive distrust in Government and a fervid belief in conspiracies--IMHO, of course.

I've read some of the debate on the link (you would need many hours to read the entire document) and the Negative Team seems to want to have some type of 'hard documentation' showing that the Holocaust was ordered by Hitler. All testimony, physical evidence, et. al. is not enough without this item.

However, like Creationists, they are adept at 'moving the goalposts' when new evidence emerges.
 
Hutch said:
CF Larsen, if you derail this thread by starting another catfight with shanek...:jedi:

No catfight intended. But it is fair to mention that there are those who want to revise the Civil War.
 
Sergey
Good work on the Veritas team. You guys have a much stronger stomach for those guys than I do... I don't consider them 'normal' harmless conspiracy theorists, they are intent on eventually completing an agenda.

A rebuke to the 'the SS would do this smarter' argument is that they were clearly smart enough to leave some doubt behind.

coulda, shoulda, woulda, done... Awesome line.
 
I think that denial can be also helpful because it keep the Holocaust historians "on toes" and makes them more critical of the evidence

(Shrug)

The "selling point" of every crank group--flat-earthers, creationists, holocaust deniers, UFO nuts, etc.--is divided into two part: one for the true believers and one for the general public.

To the true believers, they say what they really believe, namely, that there is a huge conspiracy by the "holocaust industry" or "atheist evolutionists" or "the government" to hide the truth about how the holocaust is a jewish lie, or God created the world in six days, or whatever the crank theory claims.

To the general public, they present a different face: they claim, with pretended innocence and eye-rolling, that they are just interested in "fair debate" and that such a "debate" will really help those they secretly (and not-so-secretly) despise, by "keeping them on their toes" and forcing them to "exmine the evidence" that evolution happened, or the holocaust occured, or the earth isn't flat.

I don't know which group Mr. Romanov belongs to--whether he is a "true believer" in the claim that the holocaust is a jewish lie, or whether he is merely decieved by true believers into accepting their "we just want to keep historians on their toes" claim at face value.

But whichever it is, the claim that historians are, or should be, "kept on their toes" by holocaust deniers and "examine the evidence" due to them is, simply put, nonsense. The claims made by holocaust deniers are, invariably, so ignorant and silly that "examining" them is an utter waste of time--the equivalent of "keeping a mathematician on his toes" by demaning he prove that 2+2=4, or "keeping a geographer on his toes" by demanding he prove the earth isn't flat.

Debunking such nonsense, far from "keeping historians on their toes", merely wastes their time, time which they could use to do what they really do routinely to keep them on their toes and re-examine their evidence--namely, keep up with the professional, peer-reviewed literature. A brief check of the literature will show that this is in fact the case. In professional, peer-reviewed, historical journals, including those dealing with the history of the holocaust, holocaust deniers are totally ignored. Obviously, historians themselves don't consider it remotely necessary to "practice" their holocaust-history skills by repeatedly debunking holocaust-denier nonsense.

When historians do bother to confront holocaust deniers, it is usually for political reasons--when some holocaust denier makes a lot of noise of the "they are afraid to debate me!!!" variety, and they don't want the public to get the wrong impression that historians take such nonsense seriously. But those brave souls who do so consider such distractions as, perhaps, politically important, but meaningless as far as historical scholarship is concerned.

As Richard Evans makes quite clear in his book ("Lying About Hitler", about his experience as an historian confronting the holocaust denier David Irving), no new facts, no clearer vision, no scholarly revolution, ever emerge by debating the holocaust deniers, just as no advance in biology ever occurs by debating creationists.

It's a waste of time, unfortunately necessary to confront those who would deny the annihilation of the jews in order to make Fascism "marketable" again, but of no importance whatever to scholarship; if the holocaust deniers really wanted to help historians in their research, they would shut the hell up so as to not force them to waste their time debunking their nonsense.
 
"the equivalent of "keeping a mathematician on his toes" by demaning he prove that 2+2=4, or "keeping a geographer on his toes" by demanding he prove the earth isn't flat."
Or "keeping doctors on their toes" by periodically going out and shooting people in the leg. There are many very large problems with this:
1. Non mainstream research is ignored.
2. When people do notice it, they often assume that it's wrong.
3. People who engage in non mainstream research get stigmatized.
4. Because of all of this, people are very reluctant to engage in non mainstream research.
5. Non mainstream research often is not reported correctly, as it is distorted to suit an agenda.
6. Because of this, people are reluctant to publish important results, for fear that it will be twisted to suit an agenda.

So this doesn't "keep people on their toes"; on the contrary, it makes people more coplacent and dismissive of diverse points of view, due to the contant cires of "wolf!"

All of this applies not only to the Holocaust, but to evolution. There's a lot of important research that isn't being done because it's simply too closely associated with creationism. Evolution vs. creationism is not about science vs. faith, it is about truth vs. likes, highmindedness vs. pettiness, cooperation vs. competition.
 
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