Formal Auschwitz gas chambers debate

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zenith-nadir said:
The Wannsee Conference was the first time the Nazis "went public" regarding the final solution.

I think my point is a little different...from their party liturature (the bible being Mein Kamph (sp?)) to their platform, the Nurenburg Laws, to Christal Night to Wansee and the Eitzengroups (sp?) and concentration camps, Nazism was both overtly and covertly anti-semitic at its basic core. I don't veiw Wannsee as going public per se. It may be the first time that all-out extermination mecanisms, proceedures and process were formally discussed, but I suspect it may be argued, historically, that given Nazism's platform, it was inevitable. My point really is that, if at no other point, after Wannsee, extermination was overt State Policy...even if reffered to obliquely or in Orwellian double speak. Denires always want written orders as "proof" -- however, the action of the Nazi party from 1922 till its fall is the "proof" of the holocaust, in my book.

More to the point...I think Sergey (who seems to have disapeared) fudged his answer. He implied that he believes the holocause occured, but has not said so out-right, or said, outright, that denires are fabricators. He subtly wants to treat them as objects for legitimate debate (though their "history" is in too many instances based lies, ommissions, fabrications and outright, knowing distortions). My object was to get Sergey to declare specifically where he stands...that extermination evolved into both overt and covert state policy and resulted in millions of jews being murdered to fullfil this policy goal.
 
Cleopatra said:


You are the master of the subtle anti-semitism in this forum.

And you are the master of unsubtle slander....please quote a single anti-semitic statement from Dave or even an anti-semitic statement from any other person who you have subjected to your cheap slander. Remember when you subjected me to the slur that I am "ok with racism"?When challanged to produce a single racist statement you vanished with the hilarious conclusion that it was things I had not said that allowed you to reach this conclusion.....so let me guess, dave is being extremely devious in hiding his anti-semitism by never saying anything anti-semitic? Have you ever considered comedy writing?


And just to be extra carefull, I don't think I have ever said on this forum that It is patently obvious that the Holocaust happened....just wanted to get that in before you used my silence to brand me as a "subtle" holocaust denier....
 
Cleopatra said:
Have you ever considered not to hit the reply button if you don't have anything of essence to say?

Have you ever once considered finding a single example to back up your slurs?? Give it a try, don't let fear of failure hold you back...
 
Firstly, thank you Sergey.

You have managed to make something happen that is even rarer than an Indian Ocean tsunami...you got the very contentious Manifesto, Cleon, Mycroft, AUP, Claus and myself to all agree that you represent a particularly heinous little group of meme propagating woos. Congratulations, the JREF left and right finally agree...you are at best credulous...and at worst a Nazi apologist.

I'm not of any expertise when it comes to WW2 history, I do know who Sergey is very well and his excellent work in countering revisionism and that isn't an unimportant issue at all.
I deal with racism, theological hate-diatribes etc most days of the week, I can spot a revisionist/Nazi apologist fairly easy and swiftly... Sergey is the direct opposite of such as is Andrew Mathis, Steve Mock, Nick Terry and the others of the "Veritas Team" over at the RODOH forums.

I do not see how battling with the irrational crap from ufologists and alien abductees etc is more valiant and/or necessary than countering revisionism, racism and so forth.

To just shrug it off and say things like "only a moron would give them the attention" is a sure way of paving their roads for them in a sense.
Perhaps history will not repeat itself IF more people like Sergey, got involved and went for the real jugular of elements like revisionism.

Also, as a side note, has the silent-treatment against creationists helped in any way to reduce it during the past 20-30 years?
 
I think holocaust deniers do cause a major problem...

As long as these groups of people deny its existence, a sort of "hallowed ground" attitude exists surrounding the holocaust. You're not allowed to question it or investigate it, because it's some "special" historic event. I think this is very bad.

Humans are bad enough at learning from history as it is. The painful reality we have to all accept - and that numerous psychology experiments have supported - is that the holocaust could be perpetrated in similar form by another country. It was a very real event, carried out by very real human beings in charge of a modern, sophisticated country, with the silent consent of an entire society.

Given history's track record, there's a very real possibility that serious study into how this event happened will reveal it didn't actually happen the way the "holocaust legend" says it did. The problem being, at the moment, any research whatsoever that even slightly questions the "official story" is immediately labelled as denialist.

We had a person in New Zealand - very successful historian, who did a paper on the holocaust. As it turned out his research wasn't up to scratch (hardly a first for academia). But because his research basically concluded that elements of the official holocaust legend weren't entirely accurate, he got attacked. He was threatened, he lost his job and career, and his research was removed from the university records.

It seems there is a polarisation - at one end the "black" holocaust deniers and at the other the "white" pushers of the holocaust legend. Yet I'm sure we all agree history is never black and white. It is shades of gray.

-Andrew

P.S. By my terminology "holocaust legend" I am not trying to imply it is some sort of legendary event that didn't happen. What I mean is the sort of "mythos" that surrounds the historic event - for example the claim that "holocaust" should be considered a unique warcrime that ranks worse than "genocide".
 
Given history's track record, there's a very real possibility that serious study into how this event happened will reveal it didn't actually happen the way the "holocaust legend" says it did. The problem being, at the moment, any research whatsoever that even slightly questions the "official story" is immediately labelled as denialist.

Utter nonsense. There is a HUGE amount of research done on the holocaust, and a LOT of it challanges, or changes, our view of it in fundamental ways, and disagrees with what you derisively calles the "official story" or the "holocaust legend".

Just a few examples:

1). It is now accepted by most authorities that there was no soap made of jewish fat

2). It is now more or less accepted that, for all their genocidal antisemitism, the actual decision to create the death camps when and where they were created was to some degree a consequence of the attack on Russia, which removed the last vestiges of humane or public opinion considerations, not planned in advance; and so on.

3). It is now accepted that the Germans were not, pre-Hitler, especially antisemitic, and that not all of them (though many did) knew and approved of the holocaust. Daniel Goldhagen's "Hitler's Willing Executioners", advocating the "traditional" view of the Germans as all pro-Hitler, was widely derided and is not taken seriously.

This "it's not allowed to question the holocaust official story!" whining is simply the excuse of holocaust deniers as to why they are despised by virtually all respected historians.

We had a person in New Zealand - very successful historian, who did a paper on the holocaust. As it turned out his research wasn't up to scratch (hardly a first for academia). But because his research basically concluded that elements of the official holocaust legend weren't entirely accurate, he got attacked.

Wait don't tell me: by a curious, incredible coincidence, it was precisely the parts of his research which "wasn't up to scratch" that allowed him to "conlcude" that "elements of the official holocaust legend weren't entirely accurate in the first place". In other words, the man falsified or ignored sources that didn't fit with his "holocaust legend isn't accurate" conclusion. Gee, I wonder why they think he's a holocaust denier?

EDITED TO ADD: surprise surprise, this is the case. The man in question, Joel Hayward, had "only" questioned the "holocaust myth" that the gas chambers ever existed or were used to exterminate jews. Hey, that's OK--only a million or two of the holocaust victims died in those chambers, so he's only denying the deaths of a 1-2 million worthless jews.

And, surprise surprise, it turns out that, yes, he DID ignore (as he had to) mountains of evidence about the gas chambers--including, of course, virtually all eyewitness' testimony, both jewish and Nazi--in favor of holding in higher esteem and accuracy Nazi documents speaking in veiled language about "resettlement" and so on, as "inconsistent" with the gas chamber claims.

Gee, what an upright, objective individual. How cruelly he was treated...

It seems there is a polarisation - at one end the "black" holocaust deniers and at the other the "white" pushers of the holocaust legend. Yet I'm sure we all agree history is never black and white. It is shades of gray.

No, I don't think so. I think that when the Nazis killed a million or more jewish Children for the crime of being jews, that was black, with no shades of grey. And I think that those who want to just "doubt" this, or "open to discussion" if it REALLY happened as badly as that, to be black, too.

What I mean is the sort of "mythos" that surrounds the historic event - for example the claim that "holocaust" should be considered a unique warcrime that ranks worse than "genocide".

Of course, you're deliberately ignoring the fact that in many, many senses the holocaust WAS far worse than any other genocide. No other genocide build industrial killing camps for its victims. No other genocide considered it their duty to not only genocide those they could reach, but to spare no expense in seeking out ALL jews, ANYWHERE, no matter how remote, for annihilation. The Nazis actually sent people to catch and kill two, three, or a dozen jews which happened to live in some extremely remote villages in the occupied Northern countries. No other genocide did that. There are other differences, too.
 
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So what if there are no written records of Hitler ordering the Holocaust? That is hardly exculpatory evidence.

There were tens of thousands of Germans who were directly involved with the killing of Jews,
Hitler often gave verbal orders and authorizations,
Hitler knew what was happening with the Jews,
Hitler's top aides were deeply involved with the killing and extortion of Jews,
and Hitler did not do a single thing to hinder these horrible crimes.

In my opinion, Hitler wanted to go down in history as the man of iron conviction who rid Europe of Jews, however he also wanted be remembered as a nice person who liked children and animals, therefore he carefully avoided getting enmeshed in the dirty end of the "Final Solution".
 
So what if there are no written records of Hitler ordering the Holocaust? That is hardly exculpatory evidence.

There were tens of thousands of Germans who were directly involved with the killing of Jews,
Hitler often gave verbal orders and authorizations,
Hitler knew what was happening with the Jews,
Hitler's top aides were deeply involved with the killing and extortion of Jews,
and Hitler did not do a single thing to hinder these horrible crimes.

In my opinion, Hitler wanted to go down in history as the man of iron conviction who rid Europe of Jews, however he also wanted be remembered as a nice person who liked children and animals, therefore he carefully avoided getting enmeshed in the dirty end of the "Final Solution".

Also, Hitler constantly played his subordinates against each other, so they outdid each other in trying to please him. So all it would have taken was for him to let drop in front of his subordinates "wouldn´t it be nice to be rid of those jews - permanently" or something that effect - and soon we have the Holocaust.
I don´t think Hitler was concerned about his image as a "nice person". He simply didn´t see the whole thing as something one would not want to be associated with.
 
EDITED TO ADD: surprise surprise, this is the case. The man in question, Joel Hayward, had "only" questioned the "holocaust myth" that the gas chambers ever existed or were used to exterminate jews. Hey, that's OK--only a million or two of the holocaust victims died in those chambers, so he's only denying the deaths of a 1-2 million worthless jews.

And, surprise surprise, it turns out that, yes, he DID ignore (as he had to) mountains of evidence about the gas chambers--including, of course, virtually all eyewitness' testimony, both jewish and Nazi--in favor of holding in higher esteem and accuracy Nazi documents speaking in veiled language about "resettlement" and so on, as "inconsistent" with the gas chamber claims.

Gee, what an upright, objective individual. How cruelly he was treated...

The reasons for most people (ie revisionists) of "scholar doubt" on the Holocaust are naturally due to spurious, ill-conceived or simply irrational takes on it.
Though I do not think it should be a crime to be officially of opposing views on the matter, that's nothing more than fascism itself and sadly it only reinforces the irrationales thus giving more wind to it.
 
The reasons for most people (ie revisionists) of "scholar doubt" on the Holocaust are naturally due to spurious, ill-conceived or simply irrational takes on it.
Though I do not think it should be a crime to be officially of opposing views on the matter, that's nothing more than fascism itself and sadly it only reinforces the irrationales thus giving more wind to it.

It has been mentioned before here: there IS serious historical research into the Holocaust, and *surprise*: those who do it are not being arrested. That´s because it is research done to find out what exactly happened, not cherry-picking to justify a pile of anti-semitic horse manure.

Outlawing Holocaust denial is not going to supress said research. As far I´m aware, not one single fact about the Holocaust has ever been presented first by Holocaust denier, and would thus have been lost if there was no Holocaust denial, or if Holocaust deniers were all behind bars.
 
EDITED TO ADD: surprise surprise, this is the case. The man in question, Joel Hayward, had "only" questioned the "holocaust myth" that the gas chambers ever existed or were used to exterminate jews. Hey, that's OK--only a million or two of the holocaust victims died in those chambers, so he's only denying the deaths of a 1-2 million worthless jews.



Thank you for demonstrating my point so neatly. You haven't read his research have you? What you have claimed above is a perfect example of those that have personally attacked him because his research didn't follow the "official party line".

It may interest you to know he considers himself part Jewish, and is a strong supporter of the state of Israel. His sole intention was to research the holocaust academically, instead of emotionally.

His conclusion (no he did not set out to make this conclusion) was that gas chambers were not SYSTEMATICALLY USED THROUGHOUT EUROPE. He never made any claim that they did not exist, and were not used.

WW2 historians have since concluded that the long-standing truth that gas chambers were used in German death camps is now false.

It may also interest you that one of Hayward's primary aims of his thesis was, to quote:

I was especially keen to link Adolf Hitler indisputably to the extermination of the Jews

Unfortunately he was unable to find any historical evidence to achieve this goal. When he wrote to the world's top holocaust historians:

To my regret, and perhaps now their regret, these persons and organisations provided nothing in the way of historical or historiographical evidence. Actually they provided nothing more useful than accusations that revisionists are fascistic scumbags and ratbags. Only Dr Gerald Fleming made an effort to help, kindly sending me a book or three and some photocopied documents, for which I repaid him, I believe, with a copy of the finished thesis and a letter of thanks.

He also concluded that there is really no way to ever fully determine the exact number of people exterminated by the Nazis. This is supported in two ways:

The traditional figure of 11 million - Jews and others - killed by the Nazis is essentially the invention of Simon Wiesenthal, the famous hunter of Nazi war criminals. This speculative figure has attained virtual canonical status in Holocaust historiography.

In 1986 Shmuel Krakowski, then archives director of Yad Vashem, the international centre for Holocaust documentation in Jerusalem, told the Jerusalem Post that most of the 20,000 testimonies he had from alleged survivors of the Holocaust were untrustworthy, fraudulent, lacking support or in some way untruthful.


As you can see, there is PLENTY of justification for wanting to research the holocaust and find out the "truth". Yet any time anyone does this they are automatically attacked as a "denier". How exactly is researching the details of an event a denial that it happened? Surely in order to research it one must believe it happened?

Hence my opinion still stands. Thank you for so neatly providing me evidence.

-Andrew
 
I just want to add...

Under the international laws of armed conflict, Hitler's personal guilt in the holocaust is identical, regardless of which of the following is what actually happened:

1) Hitler was completely oblivious to the holocaust being perpetrated by those under him
2) Hitler wanted Jews, Gypsies, Communists, et al, dealt with, but didn't actually say they should be killed
3) Hilter explicitly ordered that all Jews, Gypsies, Communists, et al, were to be rounded up, moved to camps, and exterminated.

In all three cases, under the laws of armed conflict, Hitler is equally guilty.

Therefore it's kind of irrelevant whether there's a piece of paper signed by Hitler saying "Kill them all".

-Andrew
 
Sighhhhhhh.......

"gumboot", I am afraid, is only digging his own grave in his attempts to prove what a non-denier he is. His "evidence" is, in fact, nothing more than a combination of three well-known holocaust denier's techniques:

1). True claims that have been know for decades, but which do nothing to support his claim: e.g., that it's hard to estimate the exact number of victims; that the concentration camps (such as Dachau) and extermination camps were not the same,and only extermination camps had gas chambers; and that the extermination camps (Sobibor, Maidanek, Belzec, Chelmno, Treblinka and above all Auschwitz, which was the only camp that was BOTH an extermination and concentration camp) were in Eastern, not Western, Europe.

Why does gumboot think these claims, known to all historians to be true for decades, somehow "cast doubt" on the "holocaust myth"? Presumably because he thinks--completely incorrectly, of course--that the estimation of the number of dead in the holocaust is based on the distortions, in Hollywood movies or Soviet propaganda of the holocaust--e.g., that the figure is only six million because the Soviets claimed four million dead for Auschwitz and Hollywood movies sometimes show a crematorium in a camp labeled "Dachau".

This is a famous denier's denial technique--see here, for example. The truth, of course, is quite different. The estimate of the six millions dead is NOT based on either Hollywood, or on Soviet propaganda, or on any belief in gas chambers in western Europe, but of objective methods, such as estimating pre-and post-war populations, captured nazi and soviet documents, survivors' and perpetrators' testimony taken into acount, and so on.

Quite differently from the claim that it is somehow "not allowed" to question the number of dead--another gumboot lie--there are numerous papers who do just that, using the techniques I mentioned above, and the vast majority of them reached the conclusion that, yes, the number of jewish dead is with all probability in the 5,700,000-6,100,000 range. None of those papers, of course, rely in any way on the false assumption of gas chambers in the west, or on the Soviet's "four million dead in Auschwitz" claim.

2). Silly, absurd conclusions based on true, but irrelevant, factoids--while ignoring mountains of contrary evidence: here we have the "Hitler didn't know about the holocaust" claim, or "gas chambers used sparingly claims". The sole reason for these absurd conclusions is that some Nazi documents say "special treatment" and "relocation" instead of "extermination", or that there was no signed document saying "Kill all the jews, love and kisses, Hitler".

Of course, this, too, is a well-known deniers' technique (see here) , and its problems are obvious. First, it uses the self-serving secrecy the nazi exterminators used--giving oral orders and not written ones, using euphemism, etc.--as if its gospel truth. Second, it ignores mountains of evidence--including tons of written documents--that prove that the extermination took place (at the Nuremberg trials, at the latest, the real meaning of "final solution", "relocation", "special treatment", etc. became crystal clear). Third, its claims are so beyond common sense--Hitler not knowing about the holocaust--as to beggar belief.

By the same "logic", one can "prove" that, since Hitler's own membership card in the NSDAP misspelled his name as (IIRC) "Hittler", then there is no REAL proof that Hitler (one "t") was ever a Nazi. Or perhaps the battle of Waterloo never occured--where is the signed order, "Fight at Waterloo, (signed) Napoleon"?

3). Outright lies, distortions, and fabrications: We already encountered gumboot's lie that one is somehow "not allowed" to question the number of holocaust dead, when numerous papers did just that (but their answer is one that gumboot doesn't like, so he just ignores them).

Another one is his claim about Krakowski saying that the majority of the holocaust testimonails Yad Va'shem has are fake. A reporter that interviewed him misrepresented him as saying that, but he never said anything remotely like that--in fact, he says just the opposite! Here, for instance, is his outraged letter to the Jerusalem Post clarifying what he really said:

To the Editor of the Jerusalem Post

Sir, - I was deeply astonished to read Barbara Amouyal's front-page article of August 17, which is based in part on an interview with me.

Many hundreds of the 20,000 testimonies held in our archives were extensively used in Nazi war criminal trials, contrary to what Amouyal wrote.

I told Amouyal that survivors wrote their accounts for the record of history. I cannot understand why she made of it that survivors wanted "to be part of history."

I said there are some - fortunately very few - testimonies, which proved to be inaccurate. Why did Amouyal make them out to be a large number?

Regarding the final remark, I did not receive any "orders" not to discuss the Demjanjuk case. I simply refused to discuss it with Amouyal.

Shumel Krakowski

Not quite the same thing, and--if gumboots had bothered to use anything apart from neo-nazi holocaust-denier sites for his "research"--it would have taken him exactly 30 seconds of googling to find out the truth. But gumboot doesn't care, as lying for the cause (rehabilitation of Hitler and the Nazis) is obviously his real goal.

To sum up, what gumboot calls "good reasons" for "skepticism" about the holocaust are nothing more than the shopworn, refuted-a-thousand-times "arguments" of holocaust deniers. See here for some more of them, and the original web site is well worth visiting as well.
 
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"gumboot", I am afraid, is only digging his own grave in his attempts to prove what a non-denier he is.



I'm sorry... are you now claiming *I* am a holocaust denier as well?

Wow.

That's...um... sick.

The Nazis labelled anyone that didn't 100% agree with them as a communist. It's a common technique for oppression, facism, dictatorship...the list goes on.

-Andrew

EDIT: My opinions on how research about the Holocaust is treated is primarily based on its treatment by the Jewish community in New Zealand. I am skeptical that the treatment would be much different in countries with a far more significant Jewish community, however perhaps New Zealand Jews are just nastier or something (I'm skeptical, but hey...)
 
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I'm sorry... are you now claiming *I* am a holocaust denier as well?

Well, you're using, in your posts the EXACT SAME half-truths, insinuations, logical fallacies, and outright lies holocaust deniers use (see above for proof). If it quacks like a duck...
 
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