Forgiven for what, eactly?

[Paulhoff]

I have forgiven this so-called christian god for not getting it right. Seeing how things are down here, I'm sure he hasn't got it right in heaven too, so I will get it out of the way and forgive him for that too.


Paul

 

[Resume]

I have forgiven this so-called christian god for not getting it right. Seeing how things are down here, I'm sure he hasn't got it right in heaven too, so I will get it out of the way and forgive him for that too.


Paul

I'm not as easy-going I guess. What pisses me off the most are the snotty apologists he assigned to the job.

 

[Paulhoff]

I'm not as easy-going I guess. What pisses me off the most are the snotty apologists he assigned to the job.

No, they are only self-assigned, but yes they are snotty.

Paul

 

[Paulhoff]

Tells it all.



Paul

 

[H'ethetheth]

If God can be entirely sure of the outcome (and even if he doesn't care and doesn't think about it in time), it can only mean that it is, in some way, already determined. The only way around this, as far as I can see, is to fiddle with the idea of what time is and is not*, because to an omniscient God, the entire history of the world either is, or could be, apprehended simultaneously, and if that is the case the future is already past.

Nope, that doesn't work either. Because for God to be able to see the universe through time, like some strange 4-D picture, implies that the picture is there, and doesn't change. i.e. every event on the picture is fixed on the picture. If it weren't, there would be 'ambiguous' events on the picture, meaning God would not be able to see what will happen there.
Or you'd have the multiverse again, but then there could be several of you in Hell, and several of you in heaven. It gets weird...

 

[Paulhoff]

I find it very funny (not really, very sad is more like it) that people can support a so-called god that knows what you’re going to do in the future, knows that it made you so-called imperfect, and will in the end send you to hell when knowing all this, and is considered be is followers as a loving so-called god. It is a very pathetic when one looks at it from the out.

So in the end it doesn’t matter where this being lives, in so-called other dimensions or not, it is still a poor idea of a god that is on your side.

Paul

 

[Halfcentaur]

What confuses me the most about Avalon's ideas of the Christian God is that this god seems to have had to follow some sort of rule set for how the universe had to be engineered, as if certain things just don't work and God had to work around these mechanics. This suggests God is limited by certain parameters. The idea that certain things have to happen the way they do even though God would prefer it otherwise doesn't make sense to me if he created it all in the first place from absolute nothing.

 

[Paulhoff]

What confuses me the most about Avalon's ideas of the Christian God is that this god seems to have had to follow some sort of rule set for how the universe had to be engineered, as if certain things just don't work and God had to work around these mechanics. This suggests God is limited by certain parameters. The idea that certain things have to happen the way they do even though God would prefer it otherwise doesn't make sense to me if he created it all in the first place from absolute nothing.

Sooooooooooooooooooooo, the question becomes, why doesn't heaven have to follow some rules too, so what in heaven D) are those rules.

Paul

 

[tsig]

Sooooooooooooooooooooo, the question becomes, why doesn't heaven have to follow some rules too, so what in heaven D) are those rules.

Paul

I asked the question earlier "Is there free will in heaven" because if there is then god can create a world without sin and also free will, if there isn't free will in heaven then heaven looks a lot like hell.

It was never answered.

 

[Paulhoff]

I asked the question earlier "Is there free will in heaven" because if there is then god can create a world without sin and also free will, if there isn't free will in heaven then heaven looks a lot like hell.

It was never answered.

It never will be answered. And if this so-called god knows all, there is no FREE-WILL, end of story.

Paul

 

[laca]

The problem is that god is generally believed to have created the entire universe, so it's not possible to be disinterested. He knew you would get that McMuffin when he made the universe the way he did, so that choice wasn't yours - it was his.

This.

 

[laca]

I asked the question earlier "Is there free will in heaven" because if there is then god can create a world without sin and also free will, if there isn't free will in heaven then heaven looks a lot like hell.

It was never answered.

It never will be answered. And if this so-called god knows all, there is no FREE-WILL, end of story.

Yes, I agree. The problem of AvalonXQ is that (s)he's arguing for some weird definition of free will, forgetting in the meantime that free will is being used mainly in this context: "God has a right to punish you, he gave you free will". In that context however, the argument boils down to an omniscient, omnipotent being that created everything, including you, in full knowledge of every little thing you'll ever do expecting its creation to be different than he knew well it would be. Such a being cannot escape responsibility. It has no right to expect its creation to ask for forgiveness or else. It's the epitome of moral bankruptcy.

 

[Halfcentaur]

I guess it also matters why you think God "gifting" us with free will is important in the first place. To the Christians I know, it's only important because it shows God is not an evil dictator, because he has the power to make us do what ever he wants us to do but chooses not to do that, because that's not noble of him.

The questions this presents are disturbing to me.

What Avalon seems to be saying to me is that even though God knows our choices before hand, we still are acting as if we have free will, to the best of our ability, so it is technically the same thing as having it. It's just a technicality that God is aware of what we will choose, but it's the thought that counts.
Depending on what it is you find meaningful about having free will, this can sort of work out.

It's still no different than having a trick coin with both sides being heads, and then asking us to choose heads or tails. That we are penalized for this choice, be it the wrong one, seems insane to me. But at least we were able to come to the conclusion through the illusion of free will.

 

[Paulhoff]

I guess it also matters why you think God "gifting" us with free will is important in the first place. To the Christians I know, it's only important because it shows God is not an evil dictator, because he has the power to make us do what ever he wants us to do but chooses not to do that, because that's not noble of him.

Well, first off there is no christian god, you can thank some other god if you want for that. To make beings that are not prefect and than wanting them to act prefect and if they don't, sending them to hell for it is An Evil Dictator, again, end of story.

Paul

 

[Orthoptera]

The importance of Free Will to Christians has always been, as expressed to me, primarily concerning the problem of suffering. Why does god allow good people to suffer horrible events? Because that's the price of free will. If an earthquake destroys thousands, it's because they chose to live where they did. If a terrible war kills millions, well, humans chose to have that war. Why does a small child die from a painful disease? Um... it has something to do with free will. It's all kind of a cruel test, where we are punished for not knowing the right answers, or even worse, sacrificed for the edification of others.

It's not a well-considered argument, but I find it quite common among mainstream, well-educated Christians, as a kind of facile answer to the problem of evil, which leads me to believe it's taught as doctrine.

 

[Paulhoff]

The importance of Free Will to Christians has always been, as expressed to me, primarily concerning the problem of suffering. Why does god allow good people to suffer horrible events? Because that's the price of free will. If an earthquake destroys thousands, it's because they chose to live where they did. If a terrible war kills millions, well, humans chose to have that war. Why does a small child die from a painful disease? Um... it has something to do with free will. It's all kind of a cruel test, where we are punished for not knowing the right answers, or even worse, sacrificed for the edification of others.

It's not a well-considered argument, but I find it quite common among mainstream, well-educated Christians, as a kind of facile answer to the problem of evil, which leads me to believe it's taught as doctrine.

So it seem animals must have Free-will too.

Paul

 

[dafydd]

What confuses me the most about Avalon's ideas of the Christian God ......

What confuses me is the total lack of evidence of the existence of any god or gods.Why are you discussing something that has not been proved to exist?

 

[Halfcentaur]

Well, first off there is no christian god, you can thank some other god if you want for that. To make beings that are not prefect and than wanting them to act prefect and if they don't, sending them to hell for it is An Evil Dictator, again, end of story.

Paul

I think you've just wandered into the questions I alluded to being disturbed by in my post above yours.

What confuses me is the total lack of evidence of the existence of any god or gods.Why are you discussing something that has not been proved to exist?

I enjoy mythology for one, but most of all I am intrigued by what other people think and why they think it. Insight and empathy are something I value. If you're not interested in discussing something that has not been proven to exist, why participate in this discussion?

 

[dafydd]

I think you've just wandered into the questions I alluded to being disturbed by in my post above yours.



I enjoy mythology for one, but most of all I am intrigued by what other people think and why they think it. Insight and empathy are something I value. If you're not interested in discussing something that has not been proven to exist, why participate in this discussion?

I'm not,but I'm following it.

 

[SumDood]

I don't really have anything else to contribute. I got to the point where I felt like I had explained my position very well, understood the counterpoints, and understood the reason why there's a disconnect between my position and contrary positions.

Yes and you have erroneously stated the disconnect:

The existence of foreknowledge, then, reduces counterfactual capacities to zero, hence why you erroneously conclude that knowledge somehow has some constraint on action.

And I say, yet again, NO ONE HERE IS MAKING THAT ARGUMENT. Since you keep mis-stating our opposing points of view, I don't think you understand them very well at all.

And then there's this:

But it's not.
God knows that X will happen because God knows what choice A will make -- not because there is only one choice that A can make. A has the capacity to choose X or not X, but in exercising that capacity, A chooses X and God knows this.

Right. But it's about WHEN god knows this.

God knows this PRIOR TO CREATING THE UNIVERSE.

God also knows what would happen if he created the universe in a different way.

Knowing this, god CHOOSES to create the universe in a way that will result in A choosing X.

Thus, god has chosen X.

God has free will, but A does not.

Similar to points made earlier, but different enough to warrant a response, IMHO. Care to provide one?