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Forgiven for what, eactly?

AvalonXQ said:
Truth by consensus. Very convincing.
Sorry, but you've failed to show a contradiction as has everyone else who has tackled this point. The contradiction is not recognized in philosophy or theology as a genuine contradiction; rather, it has to be assumed to be believed. Look it up; we're not the first to have this discussion.
Nice try, though. Better luck next time.
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Truth by ignorance. You are not very well read.

Try Douglas Hoefsteader's the Mind's I.
 
AvalonXQ said:
Dude, I'm the Bible-believer here. The theist. Magic was always part of the conversation.
We were already talking about an omnipotent God; how was magic not already introduced?
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Heh. Okay, that made me laugh. Fair point.

I still think I've made a good case though, and I'm waiting for you to address it. I know it's hard to do so in such a fast-moving thread, but I'll remind you every page or so if you don't get to it eventually.
 
SOdhner said:
Heh. Okay, that made me laugh. Fair point.

I still think I've made a good case though, and I'm waiting for you to address it. I know it's hard to do so in such a fast-moving thread, but I'll remind you every page or so if you don't get to it eventually.
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The reminders are appreciated. I actually assume that any points I miss are considered well-addressed (or at least reasonable to be dropped). It's good to keep the unresolved posts current.
Very early in this thread, I noted that assuming that God could have made a better universe is a flawed assumption -- we don't know what that would entail, and whether it would even be "better", but certainly it would be different in some ways important to God. People like to throw out the word "omnipotence", but I always point out that any universe that is "better" may have less of something important in it -- challeges, free will, wisdom, what have you. So arguments based around creating a hypothetical other universe that God could have created instead, I generally don't agree with.
Free will breaks the chain of moral responsibility by creating a being other than God that can make decisions. In doing so, it is no longer right to say that God did X; it is only right to say that God created X, which later chose to do Y.
With that in mind, I really think 1-4 are all true.
 
Let's try one more time:

1) God is all knowing.
2) Truman has free will
3) God knows Truman will run for president.


A) Truman can choose to run - No contradiction.
B) Truman can choose not to run - Contradiction! He knows something god didn't know. Condition 1 is violated.

As you can see, without violating one of the conditions you have put on god and freewill Truman has no choice.

There are only two possible fixes:

1) Truman has no free will, or
2) God is not all knowing.
 
AvalonXQ said:
Wrong. No contradiction.
If you insist there's a contradiction, spell it out with a logical syllogism. Don't just assert it.
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:dl:

I think you do not understand the meaning of the term.
 
qayak said:
I think you do not understand the meaning of the term.
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Then go away. I'll engage with people who are actually interested in engaging.
You assert the contradiction without even establishing the two premises that are contradictory. You're smug, and incapable of rational debate. I'm serious -- go away.
 
AvalonXQ said:
I actually assume that any points I miss are considered well-addressed (or at least reasonable to be dropped).
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With so many (often redundant) things to reply to, that's an understandable position.

AvalonXQ said:
Very early in this thread, I noted that assuming that God could have made a better universe is a flawed assumption
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I'm not arguing for god making a better or worse universe. I'm saying that he exercised free will when creating this one, and had the option of creating it differently. That he made it the way he did for a reason is irrelevant, we only need to say that he COULD have made it another way if he so chose.

AvalonXQ said:
Free will breaks the chain of moral responsibility by creating a being other than God that can make decisions.
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I would accept that if god were not omnipotent, or were not omniscient, or didn't create the universe. Because god knew the consequences of his actions ahead of time and was in complete control of the conditions and variables, he made all the choices that will ever exist in the universe at the moment he created it.
 
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SOdhner said:
I would accept that if god were not omnipotent, or were not omniscient, or didn't create the universe. Because god knew the consequences of his actions ahead of time and was in complete control of the conditions and variables, he made all the choices that will ever exist in the universe at the moment he created it.
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And conceptually, I disagree. Creating a free will being whose choices you know is not the same as making those choices yourself. Choosing to make the free will being, rather than not to make the being, is not the same as choosing all of the choices that that being will make. It's only chosing to let that being make those choices, which is not the same thing.
However, although I disagree, I certainly respect your view as nuanced and reasonable.
 
AvalonXQ said:
Creating a free will being whose choices you know is not the same as making those choices yourself. Choosing to make the free will being, rather than not to make the being, is not the same as choosing all of the choices that that being will make.
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I agree - but we're not talking about the being. We are talking about the being and all of the things in the universe that that being resides in. Every variable, every stimulus, everything. All chosen ahead of time, with the outcome known.

THAT is what makes free will impossible for everyone but god.
 
SOdhner said:
I agree - but we're not talking about the being. We are talking about the being and all of the things in the universe that that being resides in. Every variable, every stimulus, everything. All chosen ahead of time, with the outcome known.

THAT is what makes free will impossible for everyone but god.
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And that's the difference. I believe it's possible for a being to have free will even under these circumstances -- that despite each and every one of these variables being known, the moral agent in question really does choose between two or more outcomes, and really could have chosen either. Even though God knew the choice, the choice was not forced.
 
AvalonXQ said:
Then go away. I'll engage with people who are actually interested in engaging.
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No, you are engaging people who you hope won't detect your fundamental errors with simple logic. You are mistaken and continuing with your mistakes isn't going to make a worthwhile discussion.

You assert the contradiction without even establishing the two premises that are contradictory.
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I gave you the three premises. Your claim that god is omnipotent and that Truman had free will are where the contradiction lies. One or the other but not both. If they aren't established why do you keep repeating them, especially when I gave you options to get rid of the contradiction.

You're smug, and incapable of rational debate. I'm serious -- go away.
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Serious is not a word I would use to describe you. Joke . . . definitely.
 
AvalonXQ said:
Wrong. No contradiction.
If you insist there's a contradiction, spell it out with a logical syllogism. Don't just assert it.
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P = Truman runs for president
not P = Truman does not run for president
 
qayak said:
No, you are engaging people who you hope won't detect your fundamental errors with simple logic.
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If there are such fundamental errors, then spell out the logic explicitly and point them out.
You won't do this because you're incapable of it.
I hope you're enjoying our fruitless, insulting back-and-forth more than I am.
 
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