• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Forgiven for what, eactly?

SnnTsd said:
Where do you have that from? This imply something else:
Genesis 3:11

And He said, "Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?"

(The three God speak of here is capable of:"your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.")
Click to expand...
Interesting


To continue in G3....

20And the man calleth his wife's name Eve: for she hath been mother of all living. (man became consciously aware and created 'words' (named eve))

21 And Jehovah God doth make to the man and to his wife coats of skin, and doth clothe them. (nature (god) provides as well to cover is an concept of awareness, once again)

22And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,' --
(capable, aware and can live, by choice)

23Jehovah God sendeth him forth from the garden of Eden to serve the ground from which he hath been taken (the real bad part is, that mankind began to believe they were separate from nature (god))



of choice!


i wanted to add, that ORIGINAL sin, could be just that.............. mankind believing they are separate from nature.


(ie... away from god)
 
Last edited:
AvalonXQ said:
Sexual attraction isn't sinful. Actively fantasizing about another specific person may be sinful. I've been over this before, more than once, on this very forum.


Sin Criminal behavior must be intentional, chosen. When you sin do something criminal, you intentionally choose to do something that you know is wrong when you do it. Whether or not you intend to disobey God, you intend to do something you know to be wrong, and that does disobey God. Does that clarify what I mean?
Click to expand...
.
A leetle fix.
Sins are offenses against fantasies. i.e. of no consequence.
Criminal behavior, such clergy performing pedophilic activities, are crimes.
Everyone (except the RC officials) understand that.
Confessions and novenas do not eliminate the offense. Arrest, trial, conviction does that.
And it stays on their permanent record here, where it counts, not in St. Pete's No-entry book at the Pearly Gates.
 
Avalon: I want to throw my hat in the ring as one who appreciates your honest and civil discourse on these issues. I've disagreed with you on previous threads and yet have always found you to be a good poster to converse with. Thanks.

Ryan O'Dine said:
The fact that people inevitably sin is the problem. You said upthread that God did make an “agent” which has never sinned...

So it's possible for God to create such a being. Yet He apparently chose not to make everyone that way. That's the conundrum.
Click to expand...

I think this hits on the same issue as my prior question about heaven. It seems illogical to say that god is omnipotent but could not give freewill without creating a sinful creature. In fact it seems that by most believer's standards he can do just that, but chose not to. As evidence, we have Mary, Jesus, and Heaven. Two are people who are presumed to have been without sin by at least some plurality of believers and the third is a place that most believers think is completely without sin but not without freewill.

Now, I understand that you may not know the specifics about heaven, since the bible is actually quite slim on the issue, and that you may not think much of Mary being without sin, but this Jewish bloke who died on the cross . . . this seems to be an issue.

Finally, what are we to think of a being who has created billions of people that he knew would go to hell just so that he could have a few who worshiped him properly and got to join him in heaven? Is that the sort of being that deserves our fealty?
 
Last edited:
AvalonXQ said:
You've mixed the metaphor in order to sneak in an argument from consequences.
Click to expand...

But the requirement that we should be forgiven for something inevitable is an argument about consequences.

AvalonXQ said:
A baseball player is held to not have a "perfect batting average" if he fails to hit during every single at-bat, despite the fact that nothing stops him from theoretically hitting every ball.
Even the fact that no major league player will ever retire with a perfect record doesn't suddenly mean anything about the theoretical possibility of doing so. As long as every at-bat is fair, the game is fair. It's the players that are imperfect.
Click to expand...

Yes, but this imperfection is not regarded as something that requires forgiveness. If a batter retired with a lifetime average of 0.900, he wouldn't be demanding forgiveness from the fans. More likely, the fans would be seeking forgiveness from him.

Your God, in your belief, created us knowing we were incapable of not sinning, from his foreknowledge that we all would. Yet this is entirely our fault.

I have no issues with you, but I really dislike your God.

Dave
 
Dave Rogers said:
Yes, but this imperfection is not regarded as something that requires forgiveness. If a batter retired with a lifetime average of 0.900, he wouldn't be demanding forgiveness from the fans. More likely, the fans would be seeking forgiveness from him.
Dave
Click to expand...

This is a good example of a problem I see not just with religious thinking, but in lots of people. People seem to see things in binary - black and white, on and off - when things in real life are not actually this way. So because someone is not perfectly good, they must be evil. The baseball player would be seen as a 'good' player. But this is not the same for a person, who does mostly good things, but told a lie when they were a child. They can't be good for some reason unless they are perfectly good. When the definition of good is 'perfect' then of course no one will be good.

I think most people are good, god thinks all people are evil. I would never allow ANYONE to go to hell, god has no problem with most people going to hell. I seem to have different morals than god, where do I get mine then?
 
I seem to have different morals than god, where do I get mine then?

From the debil, obviously. If it ain't from God, you know, it's from the debil. Repent, you lousy bleeding heart sinner!

/sacasm
 
AvalonXQ said:
Actually, doing what you believe to be wrong is sinful. Because sin is so caught up with the condition of the heart and the choices we make, what we consider sinful is sinful for us.
We have to be careful, though, not to assume that what is sinful for us is sinful for others.
Click to expand...
Moral relativism already. What others do you mean?
 
Polaris said:
If a qualification of sin is that the sinner must know (s)he is willingly committing an evil act, that must mean God is a humongous fan of sociopaths.
Click to expand...

We are speaking of the same "god" which asked to bash kid's head against rock, and to keep the nubile women for self.

So yeah. I think god is really a humongous fan of psychopath, as one himself.
 
AvalonXQ said:
It's interesting that you include this example. Where's the voluntary commitment, here? Isn't the responsibility imposed on you whether you want it or not?
If you have the responsibility to obey the laws of our society by living in our society, why don't you have the reponsibility to obey the laws of God's universe by living in God's universe?
Click to expand...

It is a voluntary commitment. You can choose to NOT live in our society, and go to one of the many lawless area of the world, like , say , somaly.
 
Hellbound said:
Either way, it's a rigged game, and we pay for God's lack of foresight.
Click to expand...

It is a rigged game. by having this concept of sin and forgiveness, the christian make sure you all get hooked and are unable to go on alone. The usual trick of religion to make certain everybody has to go at its tits, or be damned.
 
Bishadi said:
Interesting


To continue in G3....

20And the man calleth his wife's name Eve: for she hath been mother of all living. (man became consciously aware and created 'words' (named eve))

21 And Jehovah God doth make to the man and to his wife coats of skin, and doth clothe them. (nature (god) provides as well to cover is an concept of awareness, once again)

22And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,' --
(capable, aware and can live, by choice)

23Jehovah God sendeth him forth from the garden of Eden to serve the ground from which he hath been taken (the real bad part is, that mankind began to believe they were separate from nature (god))



of choice!


i wanted to add, that ORIGINAL sin, could be just that.............. mankind believing they are separate from nature.


(ie... away from god)
Click to expand...

That's a good interpretation, too. If I remember right, this is similar to what calvinist and a good deal protestants belive. Jesus is the deity that brings humankind back to God.

If one look at the various "sins" that christians come up with, christians unfortunately often commit other sins when fighting their choice of what is a sin, like the pogrom, inquisition, spread of AIDS in africa(no to condoms) and so on.

Not sure if that's what you read, so excuse me if I am spinning in another direction!
 
SnnTsd said:
That's a good interpretation, too. If I remember right, this is similar to what calvinist and a good deal protestants belive. Jesus is the deity that brings humankind back to God.

If one look at the various "sins" that christians come up with, christians unfortunately often commit other sins when fighting their choice of what is a sin, like the pogrom, inquisition, spread of AIDS in africa(no to condoms) and so on.

Not sure if that's what you read, so excuse me if I am spinning in another direction!
Click to expand...



You are expanding your point of view and i like to see thinking.

Thanks for the change of pace around here!


:)
 
TimCallahan said:
On another thread (Mohammed now the most popular boy's name in England), DOC responded to a comment by Hokulele that it was too bad God hadn't learned to turn the other cheek, with the following:

If you ask for forgiveness and are sincere he will.

So, here's what I'd like to know: For what , exactly, are we supposed to be asking forgiveness? Original sin (that we didn't commit)? Not being perfect, when we are supposedly made the way we are by the God who has to forgive us for being what we are?

Or are we all guilty of grievous sins and acts of utter depravity that we are too dishonest to admit?
Click to expand...

To my understanding, forgiving sincerely is something you should do towards others, so YHWH can forgive you. It's part of the peace&love/golden rule message from Yeshua. You can't expect YHWH to forgive you, if you can't forgive others. Also, when YHWH forgive and love you, you will get motivated to forgive the surroundings.

But it looks like it's something more going on here. DOC accuses Hokulele for not "turning the other cheek", and tells Hokulele to pray to YHWH or Yeshua Christos, so one of them or both can forgive him, in other words, not turning the other cheek is a SIN.

I've never met any christians that agree that not turning the other cheek is a sin, btw.
 
SnnTsd said:
Thanks, I've an exam in bible studies before christmas, so _have_ to expand my view on this :)
Click to expand...


ouch.....i hope that class (exam) is not bound to the beliefs, because to mention that the original sin is mankind leaving the garden (believing he is separate), may get you into trouble.


Jesus is the deity that brings humankind back to God.
Click to expand...

ie.... not so much 'jesus' is doing it, but that 'return' portion is what many render as to 'when' the recombining of mankind with the garden begins. Some believe jesus is coming back in a physical form when reality is more like, jesus was not that he (Matt 16:20) per his claim (of bible) and that his works, will be rendered during the actually 'hammer time'. (john 14:26, and 14:30)
If one look at the various "sins" that christians come up with, christians unfortunately often commit other sins when fighting their choice of what is a sin, like the pogrom, inquisition, spread of AIDS in africa(no to condoms) and so on.
Click to expand...

the worst is the false witness, in which a belief will often require a 'creed' to be held (which is a lie).
 
Avalon, I'm curious how you would reconcile a disparity between what one considers to be wrong, and the commands of God. For example, what if God commands a man to murder someone for picking up sticks on a Saturday, but this individual "knows" that it is wrong to do so?

You actually elaborated on this point a little bit, and it's an interesting view:
AvalonXQ said:
Actually, doing what you believe to be wrong is sinful. Because sin is so caught up with the condition of the heart and the choices we make, what we consider sinful is sinful for us.
Click to expand...
So in our above example, there is nothing the man can do to not sin. And who's fault is that? The man does not choose to feel reluctant in regards to killing.

You could argue that when one "knows" something is wrong, then they may be incorrect, but that would totally undercut a great deal of your argument. Or maybe God's commands supercede one's moral inclinations, but this would contradict the quoted passage.
 
AvalonXQ said:
If you have the responsibility to obey the laws of our society by living in our society, why don't you have the reponsibility to obey the laws of God's universe by living in God's universe?
Click to expand...
So are you suggesting we should all read the Qu'ran so we can understand these rules?

There are just so many gods whose adherents claim are responsible for creating the universe, it's really difficult to know which rules we need to follow. So many gods, so little time to sort through them all. Is there a way to tell which ones are false and which are real? And I mean a fool-proof way, not one that requires me to "think with my heart" or anything so nonsensical.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom