For the No-Jesus Camp

oh now wait a gosh-darn minute here!

I just realised that you cited the presence of contradictions in the Bible as STRENGTHENING your case that it is the work of a omniscient being?!

For goodness sake, man, surely this is a transparently idiotic claim?

The reason there are such violent contradictions in the Bible is that it is a work of HUMAN INVENTION, like all the other "holy" books and scriptures people place their unquestioning faith in...

Paul Hayward.
 
chrisjt said:
Posted by PotatoStew:

My response:



Posted by Diogenes:


Diogenes, it seems that my last post was a little ambiguous(I didn't think my tag-line was though). What I meant was, that by asking that question, PotatoStew demonstrated that including witnesses who lack credibility can, to some people, add credibility to the story.

Of course, now that you've implicated me as a Christian, I'll have to sue for libel.:D

Wasn't sure which camp you were in. While we must be prepared to give PotatoStew proper credit, where deserved, we must be clear when it comes to " for" or "against". :D
 
stamenflicker said:
Diogenes,
snip..
If you know of a religion in which all it's first followers were murdered for stating their beliefs, then by all means step up to the plate and take a swing.
Flick

....all? Do you ever bother to read what you have written?

How do you expect anyone to take you seriously?
 
Confusion

First, what's with the J vs. P documents from the OT?

OT contradiction analysis reached the conclusion that the contradictions represent a narrative history of two communities. They are referred to as E vs. J for Elohim vs. Jehovah (Yahweh). The names arose because the texts have different names for God.

I assume from the context of your discussion, that this is what you were referring to - but correct me if I am wrong.


Second, stop using martyrdom as proof of anything. Initial christians were not persecuted because of their beliefs - they were simply other Jews. The Romans did not bother them any more than they bothered other Jews. Until Pliny wrote to Trajan in 112 CE, wherein he indicated that he suggested killing those people called Christians if they would not offer incense to the emperor, there were no real martyrs.
 
Oh, and about the women

One interesting theory (Crossan, Birth of Christianity) is that women in the ancient middle east (especially jews) kept up a mourning narrative for their dead. So it was natural that women would have repeated the story of the works and death of Jesus.

It would have not been a great leap to invent the story of running into angels at the tomb.
 
stamenflicker said:
Since the latter half of the N.T. is mostly letters, they were for sure existing in written form. Since most of them were penned by Paul, they were probably written before 50 AD. The earliest known manuscripts (believed to be copies and variations of an original source "Q" have been dated back as far as 180 AD.

We can rule out contradictions since the New Testament is chalked full of them. Most of the books were rejected because their authorship or authenticity could not be established, or was in question. Additionally, the majority of the gnostic gospels were written down between 200-300 AD.

Flick

Stamenflicker,

What are your sources?

Liam
 
stamenflicker said:
I had the impression that large portions of Genesis were one or the other.

Actually most of the O.T. is written this way, not just Genesis. For example the book of Job is likely from the J camp. In Genesis for example, chapter 1 is a J author, but chapter 2 is a P author, hence the contradictions.

Whether J or P, the central message is the same:

1) God is.
2) Man is a mess.
3) God longs to establish a relationship with man.

Flick

Well, I thought the point in question here was whether anyone had practiced Biblical revisionism. IT seems to me if large portions of the Bible were written by someone else at a later date, that's the very definition of revisionism.

On another point entirerly, you've done something here I've never seen done before: You['ve outlined a basic premise for religion that I think can actually be clearly supported by the Bible. I wonder if you could go from the three points you made above to Christianity as it's preached and practiced without losing that "clearly supported by the Bible" part -- I've not been able to figure out hos the Bible supports Christianity the way it's taught today -- at all.

-Chris
 
Re: Confusion

Gregor said:
OT contradiction analysis reached the conclusion that the contradictions represent a narrative history of two communities. They are referred to as E vs. J for Elohim vs. Jehovah (Yahweh). The names arose because the texts have different names for God.

Er. I assume you're correct. I was going from memory and it's been a long time since I've looked this stuff up. :)

I assume from the context of your discussion, that this is what you were referring to - but correct me if I am wrong

Absolutely..

Second, stop using martyrdom as proof of anything. Initial christians were not persecuted because of their beliefs - they were simply other Jews. The Romans did not bother them any more than they bothered other Jews. Until Pliny wrote to Trajan in 112 CE, wherein he indicated that he suggested killing those people called Christians if they would not offer incense to the emperor, there were no real martyrs.

Well, the letters written by the apostles seem to see martyrdom everywhere. Plus, John the Baptist and Jesus Christ might disagree with you here...

But I could see it being true that the early Christians in general were not persecuted. Just a few important ones in specific? Is this what you're saying?

-Chris


-Chris
 
> I'm no expert in religion making but it seems if you were creating a god or a faith you would need a motivation. What was it? And would it be worth dying for?

With respect, your questions are very niave, and indicative of a tenuous grasp of anything beyond the revisionist, Christian take on history, which seeks to paint the Church as the main civilizing thrust behind the growth of Western civilization (a view which virtually no mainstream, non-Christian scholar now regards as tenable). This is just self-aggrandising nonsense, flimsy propaganda of the kind which anyone who has studied the rise of "Uncle Joe" Stalin will be all too familiar.

Throughout history, religion has provided social cohesion, and religious myth has been the principal way in which ethical systems, forms of social organisation, traditions, rituals, alliances and emnities etc. have been encoded, and passed on through generations as unsullied truth by some centralised authority. Religion has been the toehold by which the power-hungry manipulate the needy, a powerful force for social engineering. Millions upon millions have died for numerous (equally misguided) faiths, inculcated into them from birth, unshakeable convictions in mysterious, invisible intelligences of one kind or another, in this respect no different from your Jesus or Jehovah.

Only recently, Mohamed Atta lead a group of religious fanatics - adherents of a corrupted form of Islam influenced by the socialist revolutionist thinking of Europe - into flying jumbo jets into non-military targets across the US. What was HIS motivation? If this example is too extreme for you, then perhaps you could explain the spread of traditional Islam among the many millions of ordinary, peace-loving people of the Middle East - a faith which, you simply MUST concede, is based on a Holy Book very simular in character to yours, which WAS fabricated, and which WAS successfully propagated, DESPITE the total lack of evidence to support it?

The critical tradition began in ancient Greece, and marked the beginning of the slow trawl out of religious dogma and political authoritarianism (which continued DESPITE, not because of, the oppression and censorship of the Church) which culminates in natural philosophy, modern science, democracy, and the free market. This new tradition is characterised by a desire to embrace uncertainty, to recognise that no authority has the infallible truth, to weed out and learn from our errors, to challenge, and to revise, and to extend our knowledge, and by this method to grow, and to make progress, and to be responsible for ourselves, and critical of our rulers. This is in sharp contrast to most (although not all) religious traditions, which embody the wish to return to the womb-like security of childhood, and hold to the comforting belief that Absolute Truth is accessible to some Earthly authority, a view which inevitably paves the way for authoritarian systems which seek to surpress creativity, criticism and free enquiry wherever they find it.

Paul Hayward.
 
stamenflicker said:
Diogenes,

I didn't change the subject at all. If you know of a religion in which all it's first followers were murdered for stating their beliefs, then by all means step up to the plate and take a swing.

Christianity's first followers were not murdered. Wayne Meeks, professor of Biblical Studies at Yale, tells us:

After a long period in which the persecutions of Christianity were really spasmodic, local, [and] involved very few people, suddenly in the middle of the 3rd century, the year 250, the Emperor Decius decides that Christians are a real enemy of the Roman order, that they must be dealt with empire-wide, with all the police power that the emperor can bring to bear upon them.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/why/martyrs.html

Thus, Christianity had about 200 years to take root before any serious attempt was made to destroy it.

However, to answer your other question, Zoroastrians were also heavily persecuted by Alexander the Great and the Arab Muslims. Followers were killed, temples destroyed, and sacred texts burned.
 
christjt:

What I meant was, that by asking that question, PotatoStew demonstrated that including witnesses who lack credibility can, to some people, add credibility to the story.

While the inclusion of those witnesses may add credibility to the story *now* -- since we now know that women can be credible witnesses -- I don't think we can expect that anyone *then* would have thought that an inclusion of such witnesses would add credibility. For instance, if you want someone to believe a story you are telling, do you include the made-up testimony of someone that you and others believe to be unreliable? How would that help your case? It might help it later when it is found that the person thought to be generally unreliable turns out to be generally reliable after all, but having no way to know that it would turn out that way it's doubtful you would invent that person's testimony to try to bolster your case. In my opinion.

scribble:

I think you asked me earlier what I thought of the J vs P (E vs J?) issue.... I actually don't know much about it, so I don't have an opinion on it. I'll have to look into it sometime. Just didn't want you to think I was avoiding the question.
 
PotatoStew said:
While the inclusion of those witnesses may add credibility to the story *now* -- since we now know that women can be credible witnesses -- I don't think we can expect that anyone *then* would have thought that an inclusion of such witnesses would add credibility. For instance, if you want someone to believe a story you are telling, do you include the made-up testimony of someone that you and others believe to be unreliable? How would that help your case?

As we all know, Mark's is the earliest Gospel. However, his version originally ended with the women going to the tomb and discovering that it was empty -- period, that was the end of the story. There was nothing about angels, Christ appearances, or anything else. That stuff was added later.

It's entirely possible that women did play an important role and this role is reflected in the gospel stories, but so what? There can be many aspects of a fictional story that are factually true, while the story itself is largely fiction. It's true that a Dust Bowl and a Great Depression really happened in the 1930s, but this doesn't make the Grapes of Wrath a true story.
 
PStew - E v. J test

Take Genesis 7 - 9 (Noah's flood story).

Take a sheet of paper and bisect it.

In one column write one sentence about some particular act (e.g. Noah was 600 when the flood came).

In the other column, write the other sentence that says a similar - but not exactly the same thing (e.g. In the 600th year, 2nd month, 17th day, the rains came).

Do that for every substantive feature of the story, and you'll see that these are two stories cobbled together.

Further examples:

earth was wicked earth was violent

2 of each animal 7 of clean animals

sent out raven sent out dove

promised no more promised & sent a rainbow
 
However, to answer your other question, Zoroastrians were also heavily persecuted by Alexander the Great and the Arab Muslims. Followers were killed, temples destroyed, and sacred texts burned.

As an aside, many Mezo-Americans (Aztecs, Mayans, Inca, etc.) were murdered by the Spanish with the active help of the Catholic church because they refused to bow-down to the Spanish and their god and church. Some refused to be slaves. Some refused the new religion. As a result and in my estimation, would and could be considered martyrs for their religion -- dying in Auto De'Fes, as it were, and bruning at the stake because they refused to bow before the Christian God. I am not sure why their martyrdom or sacrifice for their gods, beliefs and life style is any less than those of early Christian martyrs. Of course, they were brown people, saveges and heathens and their religion and gods were barbaric, so the fact that they were murdered for their bliefs doesn't count I guess.

Oh yes, I also seem to remeber that when Christianity came to Russia -- actualy the Kingdom of Kiev -- that prince Vladimir (I think that was his name), the converting soverign, purged his nobility of those who would not convert to Christianity. Were not these martyrs for the paganism of pre-christian Kiev? Just a thought...
 
headscratcher4 said:



Oh yes, I also seem to remeber that when Christianity came to Russia -- actualy the Kingdom of Kiev -- that prince Vladimir (I think that was his name), the converting soverign, purged his nobility of those who would not convert to Christianity. Were not these martyrs for the paganism of pre-christian Kiev? Just a thought...


It was my understanding these martyrs were stuffed with butter and herbs, rolled in bread crumbs then deep fried until golden brown.:D
 
It seems quite blatantly obvious to me that there have been people willing to die for all kinds of beliefs. I don't understand it, but it happens all the time. Any wacko with any kind of idea seems to be able to get some other people, equally wacko most likely, to believe their idea and be willing to give up their lives for it. Koresh, Jonestown, Heaven's Gate, those are just a few cases that anyone today should be quite familiar with. There must be tons more in every culture in every time. I hardly see how saying people are willing to martyr themselves for a belief proves that belief is true.

In biblical times, people were looking for a messiah, expecting one any day in fact, and along comes Jesus. Gets a few followers who believe he is that true messiah, dies on a cross, and soon those followers are spreading the word to other gullible folk, with the added bonus that "he rose from the dead."

As for when the stories were first written down, even if it was just a handful of years later, do you have any idea how a story can be distorted in just a short period of time? Ask a group of people who saw a car accident and you'll get as many stories as there are people. But say twenty years later (even five or ten years later), do you think you'd get anything even approaching the real story? I hardly think that's likely.
 
As we continue to weigh only one of the body of questions I threw out, I think its important to note that again, none of the religions anyone has mentioned has its first followers being martyred.

What I meant by all the first followers is simply that Jesus "The Fabricator" and his 12 "Co-Conspirators," and Paul the "Great Liar," and Stephen the "Idiot," and scores of others are murdered during the alleged fabrication of this grand tale unlike ANY of the religions you have mentioned-- all for what reason? If marytdom was alone the reason to accept any faith, I'd conceed it's not much evidence. But given this within the body of other unlikely "fabrications" I'd say it makes a strong case.

Again, I'm asking to be shown where the alleged "fabricators" and the first followers "revisionists" were executed for the beliefs and somehow, unlike say Waco Texas, maintained a high degree of credibility.

Flick
 
Flick,

Again, I'm asking to be shown where the alleged "fabricators" and the first followers "revisionists" were executed for the beliefs and somehow, unlike say Waco Texas, maintained a high degree of credibility.
Oh, you mean like groups of Germans believing that the Holocaust didn't happen, and despite legal and social sanctions against them for holding this belief, they are still being willing to parade and declare this? You're right - would never happen!

Really, I don't see why this seems such a strong point for you - history shows us time and again that humans can be get very passionate (yes, to their death) about something very quickly. For me, the interesting thing is not "why did christians from 70 CE hold their faith in the face of persecution", but rather why did this particular faith grow so rapidly. But then that question always feels like asking "why were the Beatles so big?" - the most likely answer seems to be "someone had to be".
 

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