That's very true, but it remains possible that there was a person named Peter who never witnessed the fiction called the transfiguration and never witnessed the appearance of monstrous fiction Elijah and monstrous fiction Moses talking with monstrous fiction Jesus.
-
Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
For Kapyong: Defending a historical Jesus
- Thread starter GDon
- Start date
-
- Tags
- historical jesus jesus
In antiquity and even today people believe the Ghost stories in the NT Canon contain the history of their Jesus.
It is well documented that in antiquity and up to now that Ghosts, Gods, Devils, and Angels are believed to be actual real entities.
A Ghost is the father of Jesus in the NT Canon.
In the NT God is a Ghost/Spirit.
John 4:24God is a Spirit..
Now, examine all writings attributed to 1st century writers.
Jesus of Nazareth, Paul of Tarsus, the Pharisee and Peter/Cephas are all unknown--all undocumented.
1. There is zero historical evidence for Jesus of Nazareth,
2. There is zero historical evidence for Paul of Tarsus, the Pharisee.
3. There is zero historical evidence for Peter/Cephas.
Peter/Cephas was a "witness" that Jesus was a water walking transfiguring resurrecting Son of God.
Peter/Cephas was invented in the 2nd century or later in an attempt to historicise the fiction called Jesus of Nazareth.
Paul of Tarsus, the Pharisee was a "witness" that God raised Jesus from the dead.
Paul of Tarsus, the Pharisee was fabricated in the 2nd century or later in an attempt to historicise the non-historical resurrection.
A fiction writer under the name of Paul had a list of over 500 persons who saw Jesus after God raised him from the dead.
Peter/Cephas and Paul are listed.
1 Cor. 15.... Christ died..... he was buried.....he rose again the third day ....... he was seen of Cephas........And last of all he was seen of me also.
The Jesus story is complete 2nd century or later fiction from conception to ascension.
Jesus of Nazareth, Paul of Tarsus-the Pharisee and Peter/Cephas never existed--they were all invented in the 2nd century or later.
It is possible that Jesus was a water walking transfiguring Son of a Ghost because plenty people believe so???
It is possible that the Holy Ghost and Satan exist because plenty people believe???
Belief is really worthless in any argument.
It is well documented that in antiquity and up to now that Ghosts, Gods, Devils, and Angels are believed to be actual real entities.
A Ghost is the father of Jesus in the NT Canon.
In the NT God is a Ghost/Spirit.
John 4:24God is a Spirit..
Now, examine all writings attributed to 1st century writers.
Jesus of Nazareth, Paul of Tarsus, the Pharisee and Peter/Cephas are all unknown--all undocumented.
1. There is zero historical evidence for Jesus of Nazareth,
2. There is zero historical evidence for Paul of Tarsus, the Pharisee.
3. There is zero historical evidence for Peter/Cephas.
Peter/Cephas was a "witness" that Jesus was a water walking transfiguring resurrecting Son of God.
Peter/Cephas was invented in the 2nd century or later in an attempt to historicise the fiction called Jesus of Nazareth.
Paul of Tarsus, the Pharisee was a "witness" that God raised Jesus from the dead.
Paul of Tarsus, the Pharisee was fabricated in the 2nd century or later in an attempt to historicise the non-historical resurrection.
A fiction writer under the name of Paul had a list of over 500 persons who saw Jesus after God raised him from the dead.
Peter/Cephas and Paul are listed.
1 Cor. 15.... Christ died..... he was buried.....he rose again the third day ....... he was seen of Cephas........And last of all he was seen of me also.
The Jesus story is complete 2nd century or later fiction from conception to ascension.
Jesus of Nazareth, Paul of Tarsus-the Pharisee and Peter/Cephas never existed--they were all invented in the 2nd century or later.
It is possible that Jesus was a water walking transfiguring Son of a Ghost because plenty people believe so???
It is possible that the Holy Ghost and Satan exist because plenty people believe???
Belief is really worthless in any argument.
Last edited:
And the other four hundred and nighty eight? Where are they listed?A fiction writer under the name of Paul had a list of over 500 persons who saw Jesus after God raised him from the dead.
Peter/Cephas and Paul are listed.
Then give me the second century or later list.]they were all invented in the 2nd century or later.
True. So use textual analysisBelief is really worthless in any argument.
All writings about Jesus, Paul, Peter and the disciples are from the 2nd century or later as dated either by paleographers or carbon dating.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Testament_papyri
There are sites with bogus imaginary dates of unknown manuscripts using the propaganda and fiction called Acts of the Apostles [stories of an ascended resurrected being and a Ghost from heaven].
In Acts of the Apostles it was a promised Ghost which came down from heaven that gave the disciples the POWER to preach the fiction that Jesus resurrected.
Acts 2
The very same Acts of the Apostles [a work of anonymous fiction] does not even mention any letter written by Saul/Paul up to 58-62CE or up to the time of Festus governor of Judea.
It is simply absurd to use anonymous undated fiction sources to date writings which are not even mentioned in Acts of the Apostles especially when all the people [apostles and disciples] directly associated with Jesus have zero history in sources attributed to contemporaries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Testament_papyri
There are sites with bogus imaginary dates of unknown manuscripts using the propaganda and fiction called Acts of the Apostles [stories of an ascended resurrected being and a Ghost from heaven].
In Acts of the Apostles it was a promised Ghost which came down from heaven that gave the disciples the POWER to preach the fiction that Jesus resurrected.
Acts 2
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them
The very same Acts of the Apostles [a work of anonymous fiction] does not even mention any letter written by Saul/Paul up to 58-62CE or up to the time of Festus governor of Judea.
It is simply absurd to use anonymous undated fiction sources to date writings which are not even mentioned in Acts of the Apostles especially when all the people [apostles and disciples] directly associated with Jesus have zero history in sources attributed to contemporaries.
You are mixing up two different concepts, and I'm afraid that the result of this confusion is very absurd. What are the two concepts? I will tell you what they are.All writings about Jesus, Paul, Peter and the disciples are from the 2nd century or later as dated either by paleographers or carbon dating.
Date of composition of a text. When were the words first written, by the person or persons in whose mind or minds they originated? That's what we're looking for here.
Then there is a different concept, which is relevant only insofar as it gives us a terminus post quem: that is, the date of the earliest surviving manuscript. Obviously the earliest ms can't be older than the composition of the text. But it might be much younger than the text, as is the case with Caesar, for whose works we have nothing earlier than the ninth century. Does that mean Caesar invaded Britain as a Viking? No it doesn't, dejudge. It means that earlier mss have been lost.
So either Caesar was a Viking with horns sticking out of his helmet, or your dating methodology is pure nonsense, dejudge. Which do you think?
It is horribly absurd to assume manuscripts with stories of God, Satan, the Holy Ghost Jesus and Paul dated to the 2nd century or later were written hundreds of years earlier.
It is already known that manuscripts with stories of God, Satan, the Holy Ghost, Jesus and Paul are products of fiction, forgeries or false attribution.
It is utter pure nonsense to assume stories of God, Satan, a Holy Ghost, Jesus and Paul are products of history.
It is quite illogical to assume stories of God, Satan, Ghosts, Jesus and Paul were contemporary because it is claimed Satan and Jesus were together in Jerusalem in the time of Pilate or that Paul was a witness that God raised Jesus from the dead when King Aretas lived.
The existence/non-existence of Caesar cannot be used to date manuscripts with stories of God, Satan, a Holy Ghost, Jesus and Paul.
No person ever lived named Paul who was witness that God raised Jesus from the dead.
No person ever lived named Jesus who was together with Satan in Jerusalem.
Jesus of Nazareth and Paul of Tarsus the Pharisee [NOT CAESAR] are completely unknown in all writings attributed to CONTEMPORARY WRITERS.
Writings attributed to PHILO, JOSEPHUS, PLINY the Elder, TACITUS, SUETONIUS do not mention Jesus of Nazareth and Paul of Tarsus.
Jesus and Paul were fiction characters like God, Satan and the Ghost.
It is already known that manuscripts with stories of God, Satan, the Holy Ghost, Jesus and Paul are products of fiction, forgeries or false attribution.
It is utter pure nonsense to assume stories of God, Satan, a Holy Ghost, Jesus and Paul are products of history.
It is quite illogical to assume stories of God, Satan, Ghosts, Jesus and Paul were contemporary because it is claimed Satan and Jesus were together in Jerusalem in the time of Pilate or that Paul was a witness that God raised Jesus from the dead when King Aretas lived.
The existence/non-existence of Caesar cannot be used to date manuscripts with stories of God, Satan, a Holy Ghost, Jesus and Paul.
No person ever lived named Paul who was witness that God raised Jesus from the dead.
No person ever lived named Jesus who was together with Satan in Jerusalem.
Jesus of Nazareth and Paul of Tarsus the Pharisee [NOT CAESAR] are completely unknown in all writings attributed to CONTEMPORARY WRITERS.
Writings attributed to PHILO, JOSEPHUS, PLINY the Elder, TACITUS, SUETONIUS do not mention Jesus of Nazareth and Paul of Tarsus.
Jesus and Paul were fiction characters like God, Satan and the Ghost.
Last edited:
These curious remarks have convinced me that I have failed in my attempts to explain my reasoning to you.The existence/non-existence of Caesar cannot be used to date manuscripts with stories of God, Satan, a Holy Ghost, Jesus and Paul.
No person ever lived named Paul who was witness that God raised Jesus from the dead.
No person ever lived named Jesus who was together with Satan in Jerusalem.
I am far from suggesting that the non existence of Caesar is a factor in determining the dates of mss with texts referring to the Holy Ghost. That idea even seems mildly insane. What I am proposing is that the date of the earliest surviving mss of Caesar's writings cannot be used to date Caesar's life. We may be sure that he lived in the first century BCE, while the earliest mss were written in the Ninth century CE.
As to your other points; you know how I deal with them. They don't exclude the possibility that
A person lived named Paul who was not a witness that God raised Jesus from the dead.
A person lived named Jesus who was not together with Satan in Jerusalem.
An argument is supported by evidence or relevant data.
Possibilities are speculative and do not require any evidence or data.
People have always believed it was possible that fiction characters existed.
The argument that Jesus of Nazareth and Paul were fiction characters invented in the 2nd century or later is supported by hundreds of writings of antiquity and cannot ever be over turned by speculation or presumed possibilities.
The existence/non-existence of Caesar do not exclude or include anything related to the dating of manuscripts with stories of God, Satan, the Ghost, Jesus and Paul.
If a person lived named Paul who was not a witness that God raised Jesus from the dead then the Epistle is still a product of fiction.
In a letter to the Corinthians it is claimed Paul was a witness that God raised Jesus from the dead. 1 Corinthians must be a source of fiction.
It is possible that multiple persons named Paul who were not witnesses of the non-historical resurrection could have lived in the 2nd century or later.
It is possible that Paul of Tarsus was a 2nd century or later invented character.
If a person lived named Jesus who was not together with Satan in Jerusalem then the gospel is still fiction.
In gMatthew it is claimed Jesus and Satan were together--gMatthew must be a source of fiction.
It is possible that multiple persons named Jesus who were not together with Satan lived in the 2nd century or later.
It is possible that Jesus of Nazareth was fabricated in the 2nd century or later.
There may be a "million" possibilities except this----It is not possible at this time to present historical evidence to support your speculation that your Jesus and Paul existed at anytime and anywhere in any century.
It is not possible now and was not before so would never ever be since all you have are fiction stories about God, Satan, a Ghost, Jesus and Paul.
Jesus and Paul [like God, Satan and the Ghost] were always fiction based on the evidence/data.
Possibilities are speculative and do not require any evidence or data.
People have always believed it was possible that fiction characters existed.
The argument that Jesus of Nazareth and Paul were fiction characters invented in the 2nd century or later is supported by hundreds of writings of antiquity and cannot ever be over turned by speculation or presumed possibilities.
The existence/non-existence of Caesar do not exclude or include anything related to the dating of manuscripts with stories of God, Satan, the Ghost, Jesus and Paul.
If a person lived named Paul who was not a witness that God raised Jesus from the dead then the Epistle is still a product of fiction.
In a letter to the Corinthians it is claimed Paul was a witness that God raised Jesus from the dead. 1 Corinthians must be a source of fiction.
It is possible that multiple persons named Paul who were not witnesses of the non-historical resurrection could have lived in the 2nd century or later.
It is possible that Paul of Tarsus was a 2nd century or later invented character.
If a person lived named Jesus who was not together with Satan in Jerusalem then the gospel is still fiction.
In gMatthew it is claimed Jesus and Satan were together--gMatthew must be a source of fiction.
It is possible that multiple persons named Jesus who were not together with Satan lived in the 2nd century or later.
It is possible that Jesus of Nazareth was fabricated in the 2nd century or later.
There may be a "million" possibilities except this----It is not possible at this time to present historical evidence to support your speculation that your Jesus and Paul existed at anytime and anywhere in any century.
It is not possible now and was not before so would never ever be since all you have are fiction stories about God, Satan, a Ghost, Jesus and Paul.
Jesus and Paul [like God, Satan and the Ghost] were always fiction based on the evidence/data.
Last edited:
Well of course that's not true. The Iliad contains many fictitious stories about gods and other supernatural beings. But that doesn't mean that the Trojan War never happened. It is a source of fiction but the fiction is elaboration of the history of a real event. The event is an entirely non-supernatural war fought in the Late Bronze Age.There may be a "million" possibilities except this----It is not possible at this time to present historical evidence to support your speculation that your Jesus and Paul existed at anytime and anywhere in any century.
It is not possible now and was not before so would never ever be since all you have are fiction stories about God, Satan, a Ghost, Jesus and Paul.
Jesus and Paul [like God, Satan and the Ghost] were always fiction based on the evidence/data.
The stories in the Iliad were not, are not and can never be historical evidence for Jesus and Paul.
The stories of Jesus and Paul are all fiction and dated to the 2nd century or later.
Jesus and Satan [a fiction character] were together in Jerusalem and Paul was a witness that God [a fiction character] raised Jesus from the dead [the resurrection is a non-historical event].
Jesus of Nazareth and Paul of Tarsus are completely unknown in all writings attributed to contemporaries.
Jesus and Paul were fiction--fabricated at least after the writings attributed to Suetonius.
The stories of Jesus and Paul are all fiction and dated to the 2nd century or later.
Jesus and Satan [a fiction character] were together in Jerusalem and Paul was a witness that God [a fiction character] raised Jesus from the dead [the resurrection is a non-historical event].
Jesus of Nazareth and Paul of Tarsus are completely unknown in all writings attributed to contemporaries.
Jesus and Paul were fiction--fabricated at least after the writings attributed to Suetonius.
That is very true, dejudge. Also the stories in the gospels are not historical evidence for the Trojan War.The stories in the Iliad were not, are not and can never be historical evidence for Jesus and Paul.
Suetonius mentions Christianity. So it's interesting that Jesus was worshipped prior to even being invented. That's supernatural, and I wonder if you're really a secret Christian, dejudge.Jesus and Paul were fiction--fabricated at least after the writings attributed to Suetonius.
Now you speak of writings "attributed" to Suetonius. May I take it that you believe Suetonius is a fabricated character invented by mediaeval forgers?
The writings attributed to Suetonius do not mention Jesus of Nazareth and Paul of Tarsus the Pharisee.
The Gods called Mars, Jupiter and Serapis are mentioned in writings attributed to Suetonius but that does mean anyone of them existed.
It is complete nonsense that the mention of Christianity in any writing means Jesus was a real person.
It is known that there were multiple versions of Jesus--- Christians claimed their Jesus was born of a Ghost--some claimed he existed without birth--others claimed he was God Creator--others claimed Jesus was a man but Christ entered him as a holy Ghost bird while some claimed he was a phantom or some kind of Aeon.
In letters under the name of Paul it is claimed that his Jesus was the Lord from heaven--the Last Adam--the firstborn of the dead and God Creator.
In gMark Jesus was a water walking transfiguring resurrecting son of a voice from heaven.
Mark 1. 11
Mark 9:7---
Jesus and Paul were always fiction--Jesus was the son of some kind of cloud or voice from heaven and Paul was a witness that God raised him from the dead.
The Gods called Mars, Jupiter and Serapis are mentioned in writings attributed to Suetonius but that does mean anyone of them existed.
It is complete nonsense that the mention of Christianity in any writing means Jesus was a real person.
It is known that there were multiple versions of Jesus--- Christians claimed their Jesus was born of a Ghost--some claimed he existed without birth--others claimed he was God Creator--others claimed Jesus was a man but Christ entered him as a holy Ghost bird while some claimed he was a phantom or some kind of Aeon.
In letters under the name of Paul it is claimed that his Jesus was the Lord from heaven--the Last Adam--the firstborn of the dead and God Creator.
In gMark Jesus was a water walking transfiguring resurrecting son of a voice from heaven.
Mark 1. 11
And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
Mark 9:7---
And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
Jesus and Paul were always fiction--Jesus was the son of some kind of cloud or voice from heaven and Paul was a witness that God raised him from the dead.
Last edited:
Very sadly, you have missed the point I was trying to make. You said that Jesus was invented after the days of Suetonius - if indeed you think that writer even existed, and I'm not clear about your views of that - but Suetonius reports the existence of Christians . Therefore you are saying that there were Christians long before monstrous fiction Jesus was forged. Now worshippers of other gods may well be mentioned by Suetonius. I would therefore be surprised if somebody told me that these gods were worshipped before they were even invented. I don't think Suetonius tells us that. But here is something that you have told us before. Many many times.The writings attributed to Suetonius do not mention Jesus of Nazareth and Paul of Tarsus the Pharisee.
The Gods called Mars, Jupiter and Serapis are mentioned in writings attributed to Suetonius but that does mean anyone of them existed.
Yes but in reality he may have existed but not been a water walking transfiguring resurrecting son of a voice from heaven.In gMark Jesus was a water walking transfiguring resurrecting son of a voice from heaven.
Mark, by the way, does not tell us about Jesus resurrecting. A later hand added 12 verses containing that information, but almost nobody believes they are an authentic part of the gospel.
What blatant fiction you write!!!
NIV Mark 16.6
The fiction of the risen Jesus,[ the son of the cloud or voice from heaven] is in gMark before the addition of the later 12 verses.
NIV Mark 16.6
“Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him.
The fiction of the risen Jesus,[ the son of the cloud or voice from heaven] is in gMark before the addition of the later 12 verses.
Last edited:
There is no reference to any disciples seeing a risen Jesus. A man tells various women that Jesus has got up and gone to Galilee. That is a perfectly natural event, involving no miracles. If I visit my grandmother's grave, dejudge, and when I arrive there you are sitting on the headstone and tell me she had got up and gone to Blackpool for a holiday, you being there and telling me so would not be a miracle.What blatant fiction you write!!!
NIV Mark 16.6
The fiction of the risen Jesus,[ the son of the cloud or voice from heaven] is in gMark before the addition of the later 12 verses.
Where is all this seeing the resurrected monstrous fiction Jesus and the invented lists of five hundred monstrous fiction people you were complaining about? Mark has none of this.
And did they tell Peter what the man in white instructed them to tell him? No,
They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.
Last edited:
When someone is caught writing fiction he/she writes more fiction to mask the previous fabrication.
It is clearly stated in gMark 16.6 that Jesus was risen yet a fiction writer claims that "Mark, by the way, does not tell us about Jesus resurrecting".
What fabrication!!!
gMark states Jesus is risen.
It is clearly stated in gMark 16.6 that Jesus was risen yet a fiction writer claims that "Mark, by the way, does not tell us about Jesus resurrecting".
What fabrication!!!
gMark states Jesus is risen.
Last edited: