Florida Teen Expelled For Doing Science

[newyorkguy]

Actually very sexist. When I was doing my 3rd Year of Chem/Computing at Uni we had 1 female student out of about 60 in the Computing Departmernt. In the Chemistry Department we had about 100 students, about 65 of who were females. A LOT of women get into chemistry.

I have worked with many women chemists. That doesn't seem odd at all. I meant going to school early to make a The Works bomb. That seems more like a guy thing. A lot more.

...And a crime was committed - my bet is just that they aren't going to hold to the serious charges, and will knock them down to lesser charges..

I agree there was an explosion. If the plastic container was still intact it wasn't very destructive. The principal described thinking it was a firecracker. For a high school kid to mix toilet cleaner and aluminum foil to see the reaction...

That seriously seems like a criminal act to you? That seems like a "rite of passage' act to me.

Expelling her from school even seems too extreme to me. Suspend her and that's it. She's a smart kid, never been in trouble. She's learned her lesson! That's not enough, right? Now we make her suffer!

Crazy world.

 

[fuelair]

Popping a ballon is an explosion by definition, should kids be arrested and charged for doing that?

Blowing up a balloon until it pops, maybe - although not a rapid one. Bursting a balloon by popping it is just a rapid release of gas.

However, your, with no offense, word games have no effect on the law and what people at various levels are required to/not to do. You are not required to like any given law, but there is generally a cost to not obeying that law (if, of course, you are caught).

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

I'm going to bet that the serious charges will be dropped, that small ones might stick, and that she'll remain expelled from school. And, really, I don't see the problem with that.

Expulsion seems incredibly extreme as a punishment. What's your thinking there?

 

[RemieV]

I have worked with many women chemists. That doesn't seem odd at all. I meant going to school early to make a The Works bomb. That seems more like a guy thing. A lot more.



I agree there was an explosion. If the plastic container was still intact it wasn't very destructive. The principal described thinking it was a firecracker. For a high school kid to mix toilet cleaner and aluminum foil to see the reaction...

That seriously seems like a criminal act to you? That seems like a "rite of passage' act to me.

Expelling her from school even seems too extreme to me. Suspend her and that's it. She's a smart kid, never been in trouble. She's learned her lesson! That's not enough, right? Now we make her suffer!

Crazy world.

As I said upthread, I was an honors student expelled from school for something that was, on its absolute most horrifying day, a misdemeanor. It, too, seemed like one of those stupid things kids do. The fact, though, is that you are handed the code of conduct on the first day, along with the punishments for breaking it. If you choose to break it anyway, then expect the punishment.

Hers, like mine, would've been much, much less of a punishment had it simply not taken place on school grounds.

 

[newyorkguy]

The one thing that made me feel good about this was looking at news stories from literally all across the US. Then looking at the reader comments and discovering almost without exception people thought it was a ridiculous overreaction.

Except here.

Here ve haf der many goot Chermans who alvays back der authorities und like to see der people got severly puniched for der crime dey commit! Ya!

The Skeptics Forum.

 

[RemieV]

The one thing that made me feel good about this was looking at news stories from literally all across the US. Then looking at the reader comments and discovering almost without exception people thought it was a ridiculous overreaction.

Except here.

Here ve haf der many goot Chermans who alvays back der authorities und like to see der people got severly puniched for der crime dey commit! Ya!

The Skeptics Forum.

Godwinning is the best you can do?

 

[newyorkguy]

Godwinning is the best you can do?

I thought it was pretty clever, yes.

 

[Madalch]

Sure there were witnesses who reported an explosion. Do you think any of these high school students could tell you what an explosion was if you asked?

There was a fellow doing chemistry in his garage in my home town a few years ago- he was neutralizing a solution of ammonia with hydrochloric acid, creating a cloud of ammonium chloride (any chemist knows what that looks like). The neighbors saw it, assumed it was an explosion, and called the fire department, the cops, and everyone else they could think of. It was a perfectly harmless reaction, but the chowderheads in charge filled the newspapers with tales of horrifyingly toxic ammonia-chloride gas that could have killed the city.

Bursting a bottle is not an explosion.

 

[RemieV]

I thought it was pretty clever, yes.

Well, at least you have a sense of humor.

I don't think zero tolerance policies are the best policies. I do, however, think that they are the policies that are currently in place. If you wanted me to sign a petition that said catch-all zero tolerance policies are bad, then great. I'd go for that - if there was something effective to replace them. But once the rules have been set, yeah, you might not want to fall afoul of them. So far, we have illustrated that she wasn't really "performing a science experiment" and that she lied about that. We also discovered that when she mixed the chemicals together she didn't know what would happen. For an honors student, that is some dumb crap, you know? If I ever commit a murder, I'm going to ask her if she'll hide this claw hammer in her garage for me.

But yeah - when it comes down to a question of if there should be zero tolerance policies, my answer would be "I think we should come up with something better." In this case, though, because there is a zero tolerance policy in place, I don't see how to give her a free pass without it killing the policy - and having nothing to replace it with.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Blowing up a balloon until it pops, maybe - although not a rapid one. Bursting a balloon by popping it is just a rapid release of gas.

However, your, with no offense, word games have no effect on the law and what people at various levels are required to/not to do. You are not required to like any given law, but there is generally a cost to not obeying that law (if, of course, you are caught).

It's not really a word game, she used a chemical reaction to create gas which resulted in the top of the bottle popping with a bang. Had she done the same type of reaction using a balloon as a container, it would have burst the balloon. There is esentially no difference between the two, an over inflated balloon bursting is exactly the same type of explosion as this girl created.

I would love to see the actual law that she is in supposed to be in violation of since by what she actually did, kids better watch out they don't over inflate their bike tyres. I did that one can it exploded with quite some force and niose. Sounded like a gunshot. If overinflated objects bursting under pressure are considered to be explosive devices and thus unlawful at schools, then balloons and tyres must count as well and need to be banned and any child bringing one onto school property expelled and charged.

BTW, one of definitions of an explosion is pretty much "a rapid release of gas under pressure".

 

[newyorkguy]

It just seems like such a totally ordinary thing for a high school kid to do. To criminalize it seems a gross overreaction.

As I mentioned, looking at various news links to try and find out more details I also looked at the reader comments. I expected to find some really negative comments but I didn't see any.

The point about expelling her seeming too harsh. She was a good student and she seems to come from modest means. What does that mean for her family? Can they enroll her in another district? Would they have to try and find a private school?

As a taxpayer I'm even a little annoyed that she was put into the (already overtaxed) criminal justice system. Seems like a total waste of resources.

 

[RemieV]

It just seems like such a totally ordinary thing for a high school kid to do. To criminalize it seems a gross overreaction.

As I mentioned, looking at various news links to try and find out more details I also looked at the reader comments. I expected to find some really negative comments but I didn't see any.

The point about expelling her seeming too harsh. She was a good student and she seems to come from modest means. What does that mean for her family? Can they enroll her in another district? Would they have to try and find a private school?

As a taxpayer I'm even a little annoyed that she was put into the (already overtaxed) criminal justice system. Seems like a total waste of resources.

It's called Alternative School. In my case, I was bussed from my regular school to the alternative one. No extra cost or anything. It's not only kids who have been expelled, either. It's also kids who chose to go there because they were also maintaining jobs, or to pursue their GED instead of a regular diploma. As long as she maintains her GPA and makes an effort to keep up with her regular school, this won't change anything. Her high school diploma will still be from her regular school. It could, however, affect her standing; or make her ineligible for scholarships offered by the high school.

 

[PhantomWolf]

So far, we have illustrated that she wasn't really "performing a science experiment" and that she lied about that.

We also discovered that when she mixed the chemicals together she didn't know what would happen.

Do you realise that these two sentences actually contradict each other?

The very definition of a chemical experiment is to use chemicals to see what they will do when they interact because you don't know what will happen.

If she didn't know what would happen, then she clearly WAS conducting a scientific experiement. The only real question there is whether it was an authorised experiement.

 

[newyorkguy]

It's called Alternative School. In my case, I was bussed from my regular school to the alternative one. No extra cost or anything. It's not only kids who have been expelled, either. It's also kids who chose to go there because they were also maintaining jobs, or to pursue their GED instead of a regular diploma. As long as she maintains her GPA and makes an effort to keep up with her regular school, this won't change anything. Her high school diploma will still be from her regular school. It could, however, affect her standing; or make her ineligible for scholarships offered by the high school.

Excuse me? You just CONTRADICTED yourself so badly that...

....

Okay this is too snarky. Let me do this over.

 

[newyorkguy]

It's called Alternative School. In my case, I was bussed from my regular school to the alternative one. No extra cost or anything. It's not only kids who have been expelled, either. It's also kids who chose to go there because they were also maintaining jobs, or to pursue their GED instead of a regular diploma. As long as she maintains her GPA and makes an effort to keep up with her regular school, this won't change anything. Her high school diploma will still be from her regular school. It could, however, affect her standing; or make her ineligible for scholarships offered by the high school.

The part about effecting her eligibility for a scholarship seems like a potentially HUGE price to pay.

Cases like this seem to take the "just" out of "justice."

Also RemieV, can I ask just exactly what you DID?

 

[RemieV]

Do you realise that these two sentences actually contradict each other?

The very definition of a chemical experiment is to use chemicals to see what they will do when they interact because you don't know what will happen.

If she didn't know what would happen, then she clearly WAS conducting a scientific experiement. The only real question there is whether it was an authorised experiement.

Well, no. According to all information, she did it because she was told to by another student - not because, being of a scientific mind, she was curious about the outcome. I guess if you want to seriously split hairs, sure, it was an informal science experiment conducted at the behest of another student. That's sure twisting it around, though.

 

[Prometheus]

It's not really a word game, she used a chemical reaction to create gas which resulted in the top of the bottle popping with a bang. Had she done the same type of reaction using a balloon as a container, it would have burst the balloon. There is esentially no difference between the two, an over inflated balloon bursting is exactly the same type of explosion as this girl created.

I would love to see the actual law that she is in supposed to be in violation of since by what she actually did, kids better watch out they don't over inflate their bike tyres. I did that one can it exploded with quite some force and niose. Sounded like a gunshot. If overinflated objects bursting under pressure are considered to be explosive devices and thus unlawful at schools, then balloons and tyres must count as well and need to be banned and any child bringing one onto school property expelled and charged.

BTW, one of definitions of an explosion is pretty much "a rapid release of gas under pressure".

If a kid overinflates a tire until it bursts--on school property--then yes s/he would likely fall afoul of the same rule. Anything that bursts with force like that creates a potential danger to children present, and should not be allowed on school property. There are quite a lot of things that can be considered harmless in the right context but which should never be allowed at a children's school.

OTOH I agree with RemieV about zero-tolerance policies; they're dumb. But I can't fault school officials for following the policies set by those above them. If you don't like the outcome of this case, then your gripe has to be with the legislature, not the school.

 

[RemieV]

The part about effecting her eligibility for a scholarship seems like a potentially HUGE price to pay.

Cases like this seem to take the "just" out of "justice."

Also RemieV, can I ask just exactly what you DID?

Of course you can ask. I won't answer, though. Downside of having worked for the JREF and my identity being all over the freakin' place.

The reason those aren't necessarily contradictory statements is because we don't know her current standing, or how her particular expulsion program handles honors students, or the policy of her old school for scholarship eligibility. I feel like there were claims that she was an honors student, but looking back I don't actually see that said. I see "good student" and "never got into trouble".

Again, I don't think it's this case that's unjust. I think it's Zero Tolerance policies in general. If schools decided to use something else that was effective, awesome.

 

[Peephole]

Sad state the US is in.

 

[newyorkguy]

Of course you can ask. I won't answer, though. Downside of having worked for the JREF and my identity being all over the freakin' place.

Dang!

...Again, I don't think it's this case that's unjust. I think it's Zero Tolerance policies in general. If schools decided to use something else that was effective, awesome.

Without really thinking about or researching it, the whole idea of Zero Tolerance for schools seems an overreaction.

Wait, that's your point!

Sorry.

This mentality that "Our Schools Are Under Siege!" is very sad.

In junior high a kid flushed a cherry bomb down a toilet. It had a waterproof fuse and produced an ungodly deep-seated rumbling concussion. No police. I remember Mrs. Ross our civics teacher -- it happened while I was in her class -- thought it was too stupid to even comment on.

At the end of the day our homeroom teacher asked one of the boys, "Ackerman what do you know about what happened in the third floor Boys Room this morning?" Ackerman was...deadpan. (He might've done it.)

That was pretty much it.