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Flight AA77 on 9/11

If you ask me, I'd say the surface of the book shows signs of having been probably watered:

pgimeno-composicion-atril.jpg

Have you noticed that the enlargement doesn't match the original image ?

652329810.png


What image was the enlargement sourced from, as it definitely wasn't the source image implied.
 
Have you noticed that the enlargement doesn't match the original image ?

http://femr2.ucoz.com/_ph/9/2/652329810.png

What image was the enlargement sourced from, as it definitely wasn't the source image implied.
source of images, reality...
Both are photos of the original book, sitting in the Pentagon. Is the Pentagon part of your inside job Demolition nonsense? Was the Pentagon a demolition too? CD?

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/111booka.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/111bookb.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/111bookc.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/111bookf.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/111marineflag.jpg

The marine flag is an example of medium resolution photos available, and there were high resolutions photos take on 911 and later.

The photos were sourced from reality. The Pentagon was a gravity collapse like the WTC 1, 2, and 7; fire did it. When will Gage add the Pentagon to his delusional quest, begging for money from dummies?

Both photos are real, one shows a higher resolution of the same object, in the same room. And?

I have more photos, some very high resolution ones. .
 
Have you noticed that the enlargement doesn't match the original image ?

[qimg]http://femr2.ucoz.com/_ph/9/2/652329810.png[/qimg]

What image was the enlargement sourced from, as it definitely wasn't the source image implied.

Greetings femr2,

I appreciate the civility of your questions. It is quite refreshing. Personally, I did not notice that pgimeno's picture enlargement didn't match the original.
 
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Have you noticed that the enlargement doesn't match the original image ?

[qimg]http://femr2.ucoz.com/_ph/9/2/652329810.png[/qimg]

What image was the enlargement sourced from, as it definitely wasn't the source image implied.

It's a composition of these two images:
http://911review.org/images/snopes/119PentagonDamage2.JPG
http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=2454

I really didn't think it mattered the slightest. Except if you're counting the angels dancing on the head of a pin.

ETA: As a courtesy, I have not linked to the high resolution version of the latter directly, but to the lower resolution one, so people can check without downloading the 2000x1312 image. However, the link to download the full size image where I got the zoomed book from is there (direct link: http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/010912-N-3235P-010.jpg). In our web page http://11-s.eu.org/11-s/Ordenadores intactos it is properly sourced, I didn't imagine someone would question it here this way (I actually wanted to show only the book, but since I had that image already available, I used it), but since to my surprise you brought that up, I've figured I should point this out in order for the nitpickers to be happy. Which is a total waste of time, not to mention a derailing of the thread.
 
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Have you noticed that the enlargement doesn't match the original image ?

[qimg]http://femr2.ucoz.com/_ph/9/2/652329810.png[/qimg]

What image was the enlargement sourced from, as it definitely wasn't the source image implied.

Well I'm convinced 9/11 was an inside job.
 
Mr. Benshoof,

A quick survey of your JAQs...


Re: "steel into dust"…

This is "Bermuda triangle", "pictures of Sasquatch" level of idiocy. No steel got turned into dust. It was all carted away in trucks, weighed & measured. There is no "missing steel". If it had been turned into dust, they would have used brooms & vacuum cleaners to clean up ground zero, and all of those grappling cranes & oxyacetylene cutting torches would have been useless.
___

Re: Mr. Olson's changing testimony about whether his soon-to-be-dead (a fact that both of them tragically recognized at the time) wife's phone calls ...

I received one of those phone calls once. It was my sister, whose voice I did not recognize, struggling to tell me that our father had died suddenly. You know, for the life of me, I haven't the foggiest notion of whether she called me on her cell phone or on a land line. Somehow, in the context of The Event of that day, it never once occurred to me to ask her which phone she was using.

Call me "uncurious", but it just didn't seem to be the significant portion of her message on that awful day.

Let me ask you something. I presume that you get phone calls daily for business. I get about 100/day myself. How many times do you ask the person calling whether they are calling on a cell phone or on a land line? What possible significance (other than "I might lose you as I go into this tunnel") does the transmission mode have to the messages delivered?

Next, giving you the opportunity to demonstrate some trivial amount of skepticism, would you please explain what you think is the significance of Mr. Olson having "changed his story" on the source of the phone calls? Would some bureaucrat staying with one story have changed the fact that planes were hijacked? Would him keeping his story constant, weeks, months & years after the fact, have eliminated pictures of the hijackers boarding the planes on 9/11/01?

Please explain what part of the events of 9/11 would change based upon Mr. Olson being consistent, or changing his story daily.
____

Re: "Books and desks within a few feet of AA77 penetrating the Pentagon."

Again, you demonstrate zero skepticism. Along with zero ability to interpret trivially obvious photographs.

The photo that you posted of those books and desks were not "within a few feet of where AA77 penetrated the Pentagon" (at ~500 mph). Those items were "within a few feet of where the building fractured along an internal wall and fell away from the items at about 10 mph".

652329810.png


There was no part of the airplane that was a 5 story tall straight line, as the exposed edge of the remaining portion of the building clearly shows. That desk & (no, it's not a stool) lectern were many offices away from the entry point of the airplane. The desk was pushed up against the wall, as most desks are. The lectern was in a corner, between the bookshelf & the wall. The desk, lectern & thick, heavy book (perhaps a bible or heavy textbook) on the lectern were perhaps shaken by the impact of the airplane, but fortunately desks & lecterns are designed to not fall over, or to drop the books that are placed upon them. And the wall, that is now missing, was standing for about an hour after the impact & would have prevented the lectern from falling over.

Further there are hundreds of photos of buildings that have collapsed for a variety of reasons, and there are always items left purchased precariously on the remaining edge. I've seen bathtubs, chairs, tables, etc. etc. etc. within inches of the edge.

There are ALWAYS things standing on the very edge of a blast zone, impact crater, partial building collapse. ALWAYS. Those items left standing & undamaged are precisely what DEFINES the edges of the blast zone, crater or partial collapse.

Allow me to provide an example:

Ronan Point collapse:
picture.php


But, wait. What is that on the very edge of the building. Sitting there perfectly unscathed, while hundreds of tons of falling buildings passed right nearby?

Let's look closer ...

picture.php


What?!!

How could a (hutch? old TV entertainment center?) and a (waste basket?) POSSIBLY survive "within feet (inches, really) of that building collapse? Right on the edge of the floor.!!"

"OMG. Inside job!"

Your "what about this" is … meaningless. Vapid.

Or, perhaps, you'd like to infuse the standing desk, lectern, textbook, hutch & waste basket with meaning. Please, please tell me what those items still standing at those locations tell you is false about the "official story of 9/11". Or the official story of the collapse of the Ronan Point apartment complex.

Please.

I can't wait.

Can't wait to hear your fascinating interpretation of "skepticism".


tfk
 
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What strikes me as odd is that none of your observations have anything to do with Bldg 7, to which all of your questions pertain.

Greetings,

It may not seem so odd if you follow the thread back a little bit. Someone asked me what originally inspired me to question the official 9/11 conspiracy theory. I just typed down a few things that came to mind from that time. Hope that helps clarify.

Cheers,

Shoof
 
Further there are hundreds of photos of buildings that have collapsed for a variety of reasons, and there are always items left purchased precariously on the remaining edge. I've seen bathtubs, chairs, tables, etc. etc. etc. within inches of the edge.
What about this one?

pgimeno-tocador-intacto.jpg


(thanks to Paolo Attivissimo for finding the picture)

Original, for nitpickers, here: http://www.vvfmilano-sardegna.it/images/vari/g/vlemonza 1.jpg; see also this one of the same building: http://www.vvfmilano-sardegna.it/images/vari/g/vlemonza 2.jpg
 
Was that building hit by a 757?
No, but you've failed to establish the relevance of that. The Pentagon was in flames, so was this building. The Pentagon collapsed, so did this building. The Pentagon exhibited unscathed materials in the areas not reached by fire with a floor in between, so did this building. How does the 757 as the initiator of the fire and the collapse affect the conclusion that there is nothing weird in a book surviving in an office not affected by fire, which was my initial point addressing one of your "questionable points"? A reminder of what I was addressing:

Thanks for your genuine interest. I'm not certain that the details of how and/or why I came to question the USG CT are relevant to a discussion of its validity.

A few randoms things spring to mind... [...] the curiosity of why the impact from Flight 77 left wooden desks with books on top unscathed (next within a couple feet of where the building was completely obliterated), [...]

By the way, I recommended you to look at some images in the report on the temporary shoring at the Pentagon. Just in case your didn't find the time to look at them, here they are:

Office without sprinklers:
pgimeno-incendio-sin-sprinklers.jpg


Office with sprinklers:
pgimeno-incendio-con-sprinklers.jpg
 
Was that building hit by a 757?
Don't you think there is some point in spacetime where we go from "damaged stuff" to "not damaged stuff"? Or is the whole universe destroyed when a 757 flies through a building somewhere at some time?

And why would the extent of the damage be marked differently in the event of a missile or whatever it is you believe (if anything) flew through the Pentagon on 9/11/2001? I'm not getting what it is you find suspicious about this?
 
Was that building hit by a 757?

Well, this post shows your level of interest in discerning whys & wherefores.

Your interest seems limited to finding some semantic differences, whether or not they carry any meaning.

No, the building shown by pgimeno was not hit by a 757.

Neither was this room.

Here is its location, on the 4th floor of the Pentagon, with respect to the plane's impact.

picture.php


So, neither room was hit with an airplane. Both (as well as my example of the Ronan Point apartment) had a structural failure of the building immediately adjacent to the noted objects.

It is beginning to look like Mr. Benshoof doesn't really care about the quality of the arguments that he offers.

I asked you several questions, sir.

I asked you what significance you place on this desk & lectern. What does it prove to you regarding the official theory of AA77 hitting the Pentagon.

I asked you to show me your bona fides as a "OCT believer" by posting a link to some of your posts before you became a truther.

You've ignored both of these requests for reply. That's not civil. That's not polite.

Shall I expect a reply any time in the future?

Or will you be satisfied with merely the cloying, insincere appearances of politeness & civility?

Rather than the real thing.


tk
 
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Re: Mr. Olson's changing testimony about whether his soon-to-be-dead (a fact that both of them tragically recognized at the time) wife's phone calls ...

I received one of those phone calls once. It was my sister, whose voice I did not recognize, struggling to tell me that our father had died suddenly. You know, for the life of me, I haven't the foggiest notion of whether she called me on her cell phone or on a land line. Somehow, in the context of The Event of that day, it never once occurred to me to ask her which phone she was using.

Call me "uncurious", but it just didn't seem to be the significant portion of her message on that awful day.

Let me ask you something. I presume that you get phone calls daily for business. I get about 100/day myself. How many times do you ask the person calling whether they are calling on a cell phone or on a land line? What possible significance (other than "I might lose you as I go into this tunnel") does the transmission mode have to the messages delivered?

Next, giving you the opportunity to demonstrate some trivial amount of skepticism, would you please explain what you think is the significance of Mr. Olson having "changed his story" on the source of the phone calls? Would some bureaucrat staying with one story have changed the fact that planes were hijacked? Would him keeping his story constant, weeks, months & years after the fact, have eliminated pictures of the hijackers boarding the planes on 9/11/01?

Please explain what part of the events of 9/11 would change based upon Mr. Olson being consistent, or changing his story daily.
____

tfk

Greetings tfk,

I totally agree with you that anyone could get confused during such a traumatic set of events.

The part of Mr. Olson's continuing story that was the real mind bender was when the FBI, in a court of law, provided evidence for the record that Mr. Olson's phone call with his wife (I think her name was Barbara), lasted all of 0.0 seconds.

It may very well be just an inconsequential anomaly that is easily explained, but it did pique my curiosity as to what actually occurred.

BTW, I think his name was Ted Olson, and he was some government official, like an Inspector General or Comptroller General or something. After giving it some thought, I wondered if I should conclude that the FBI provided the most valid evidence of whether or not the phone call took place, since that was the only evidence provided under oath. But, Ted should have known if he was talking to his wife or not, and she did---according to Ted's recounting of the phone call that didn't apparently occur---explain that the plane had been hijacked by terrorists.

I suppose it could have been a prank call by someone who just happened to know that Ted's wife was on the flight before it crashed. But, if it was a prank call, I wonder how they might have acquired her cell phone while she was on the plane and so convincingly imitated her voice. Heck, without that one phone call, we have no way of knowing for sure if there were even hijackers on Flight 77---it could have been drunken American Airlines pilots who got mad at the Pentagon and decided to do suicide bombing. Maybe that's why no one on the plane squawked the simple hijack code. Total conjecture, of course, but the mind does wonder at the possible implications.

Of course, a possible explanation would be that she had a failed call from her cell phone, and then phoned him from her seat back phone. I'll have to double check, as I don't think that plane had seat back phones, and I'm pretty sure that the FBI stated that the only call between Ted and Barbara was the one cell phone call of 0.0 seconds. You guys may have already hashed this one out years ago, as it seems like you are pretty well versed in all of the crazy claims of these wacky 'truthers'.

It is unfortunate that the 9/11 Commission, in their attempt to provide a full accounting of the events of 9/11, wasn't made aware of this by the FBI. Though, maybe the FBI didn't bother checking on this minor detail until after the 9/11 Commission completed their report.

Cheers,

Shoof
 
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You guys may have already hashed this one out years ago, as it seems like you are pretty well versed in all of the crazy claims of these wacky 'truthers'.

That being said, why are you making us go through it all over again because you're too busy to fact check your claims? :confused:
 
The part of Mr. Olson's continuing story that was the real mind bender was when the FBI, in a court of law, provided evidence for the record that Mr. Olson's phone call with his wife (I think her name was Barbara), lasted all of 0.0 seconds.
"Mind bender"? Why?

The 9/11 Commission said this about the calls (footnote 57 to chapter 1):

The records available for the phone calls from American 77 do not allow for a determination of which of four “connected calls to unknown numbers” represent the two between Barbara and Ted Olson, although the FBI and DOJ believe that all four represent communications between Barbara Olson and her husband’s office (all family members of the Flight 77 passengers and crew were canvassed to see if they had received any phone calls from the hijacked flight, and only Renee May’s parents and Ted Olson indicated that they had received such calls).

So, the records alone can't identify where the calls went.

The Moussaoui trial exhibit you're talking about reproduces these:

800px-Aa77calls_unknown.png

(hotlinked from my own site)

The exhibit also adds an extra 0 second call from Olson, but this is in addition to the original 4 calls, not "instead of".

But they say "unknown"... So can we still be sure the exhibit is referring to Olson?

Yes. The government make this plain in the stipulation, read into the record at the beginning of the trial, when they describe their case:

At 9:15 a.m. and at 9:26 a.m., Flight 77 passenger Barbara Olson called her husband, Ted Olson, and spoke to him for about one minute before the call was cut off. Barbara Olson reported that the flight had been hijacked by hijackers wielding knives and box cutters and that all the passengers were in the back of the plane.

At 9:20 a.m. and 9:31 a.m., Barbara Olson again called and spoke to her husband, Ted Olson. She reported that the pilot had announced that the flight had been hijacked. Ted Olson asked Barbara her location, and she replied that the plane was flying over houses. Ted Olson told his wife of the two previous hijackings and crashes.
http://cryptome.org/usa-v-zm-030706-02.htm

But still, we only have Olson's word for it, right?

Well, no. There are airphone records. There's an FBI statement from an operator who passed a call from a hijacked plane to Olson's office. And there's a statement from a secretary who took the call (more at http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Barbara_Olson_calls).

So, plenty of evidence. And no change of story: the Moussaoui trial confirmed what's been said all along, Barbara Olson called her husband on 9/11 to report the hijacking of Flight 77.

ETA: sorry, just realised this is a derail. I won't comment on this issue again here.
 
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The part of Mr. Olson's continuing story that was the real mind bender was when the FBI, in a court of law, provided evidence for the record that Mr. Olson's phone call with his wife (I think her name was Barbara), lasted all of 0.0 seconds.

It may very well be just an inconsequential anomaly that is easily explained, but it did pique my curiosity as to what actually occurred.
I believe that's the case. I have reasons to believe, when putting together all the available information, that the 0:00 second calls were unsuccessful attempts possibly due to lack of credit or failure of the billing system, while the unknown caller calls were Barbara Olson's calls made through a collect call automated system. See http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Barbara_Olson_calls#Lori_Lynn_Keyton and the footnote that you've already been pointed to.

Excerpts to give you an idea:

Lori Lynn Keyton was a DoJ secretary working in Ted Olson's office. She reported receiving calls from Barbara Olson on 9/11 in this FBI interview.
[...] At approximately 9:00am, she received a series of approximately six (6) to eight (8) collect telephone calls. [...]

There was a second telephone call a few to five (5) minutes later. This time Barbara Olsen was on the line when she answered. She called direct. It was not a collect call. [...]

Keyton advised that there is no caller identification feature on the phone she was using. Keyton didn't know if Barbara Olson was calling from the phone on the plane or from her cell phone.​

It makes perfect sense in my mind that the collect call system couldn't tie the callee information to the caller information and therefore that the caller could not be identified. This accounts for most or all of Barbara Olson calls. The last one could be at a height where it was possible to use a cell phone, since it was post 9:30 and the plane was quite low at the time. If it was 5 minutes after the last registered 9:30 call, then it was probably right before or during the spiral descent.


Of course, a possible explanation would be that she had a failed call from her cell phone, and then phoned him from her seat back phone.
That's utterly implausible, as there are many reasons to believe it was her directly and hardly any reason to believe someone knew she was in a hijacked plane at the time.


It seems that more and more of your reasons to think the official account was suspicious turn out to be baseless, and that you have made that opinion based on just the sensationalist side of the story without having checked the plausibility of the other side properly. I don't blame you, the sensationalist side sells better and is more thrilling.
 
Greetings tfk,

I totally agree with you that anyone could get confused during such a traumatic set of events.

The part of Mr. Olson's continuing story that was the real mind bender was when the FBI, in a court of law, provided evidence for the record that Mr. Olson's phone call with his wife (I think her name was Barbara), lasted all of 0.0 seconds.

It may very well be just an inconsequential anomaly that is easily explained, but it did pique my curiosity as to what actually occurred.

BTW, I think his name was Ted Olson, and he was some government official, like an Inspector General or Comptroller General or something. After giving it some thought, I wondered if I should conclude that the FBI provided the most valid evidence of whether or not the phone call took place, since that was the only evidence provided under oath. But, Ted should have known if he was talking to his wife or not, and she did---according to Ted's recounting of the phone call that didn't apparently occur---explain that the plane had been hijacked by terrorists.

I suppose it could have been a prank call by someone who just happened to know that Ted's wife was on the flight before it crashed. But, if it was a prank call, I wonder how they might have acquired her cell phone while she was on the plane and so convincingly imitated her voice. Heck, without that one phone call, we have no way of knowing for sure if there were even hijackers on Flight 77---it could have been drunken American Airlines pilots who got mad at the Pentagon and decided to do suicide bombing. Maybe that's why no one on the plane squawked the simple hijack code. Total conjecture, of course, but the mind does wonder at the possible implications.

Of course, a possible explanation would be that she had a failed call from her cell phone, and then phoned him from her seat back phone. I'll have to double check, as I don't think that plane had seat back phones, and I'm pretty sure that the FBI stated that the only call between Ted and Barbara was the one cell phone call of 0.0 seconds. You guys may have already hashed this one out years ago, as it seems like you are pretty well versed in all of the crazy claims of these wacky 'truthers'.

It is unfortunate that the 9/11 Commission, in their attempt to provide a full accounting of the events of 9/11, wasn't made aware of this by the FBI. Though, maybe the FBI didn't bother checking on this minor detail until after the 9/11 Commission completed their report.

Cheers,

Shoof


Perhaps you do not know that this has all been presented as evidence in a trail, and can be found here.
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/flights/P200018.html

Lots more sworn evidence, that was accepted by the defense, and the judge, here.
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution.html

Yeah, go educate yourself.
 
... Heck, without that one phone call, we have no way of knowing for sure if there were even hijackers on Flight 77---it could have been drunken American Airlines pilots who got mad at the Pentagon and decided to do suicide bombing. Maybe that's why no one on the plane squawked the simple hijack code. Total conjecture, of course, but the mind does wonder at the possible implications. ...

Hijacked? Trick was on us, not a hijacking. It was murder. It would be like a car jacking, but the car jacker kills you in the seat, takes your car and runs it into your house at 135 mph. We think we are being car jacked, but we are being murdered. Poor 911 truth, they have no clue 911 was not a hijacking, and due to complete lack of knowledge on 911, you missed who the murders were, and how the rational world knows who did it.

A fake hijacking to cover-up 19 morons stealing planes. 19 dolts too cheap to buy their own weapons. Ruthless killers, punks who can't make it in the real world, murderers, who have no skill past cutting throats and flying poorly. All 4 planes crashed, the easiest flying manuver not in the book!

Drunk pilots. Making fun of murdered pilots; that is the best 911 truth can do.

How do you set the hijack code with your throat cut? Please explain how you do that. Are you a pilot?

That is what you have, nonsense. How many times have you set a transponder code?



... Of course, a possible explanation would be that she had a failed call from her cell phone, and then phoned him from her seat back phone. I'll have to double check, as I don't think that plane had seat back phones, and I'm pretty sure that the FBI stated that the only call between Ted and Barbara was the one cell phone call of 0.0 seconds. You guys may have already hashed this one out years ago, as it seems like you are pretty well versed in all of the crazy claims of these wacky 'truthers'. ...
,,, you figured out cell phones work in flight. The funniest wacky 911 truth followers on cell phones; did a video, claims Cell phone don't work in-flight, and he shows he has bars, and connected.

As people have pointed out, there were seat back phones on Flight 77. Beat by seat back phones and JREF. What is you next wacky lie, your next anomaly due to ignorance about Flight 77 you picked up by limiting your detailed research to 911 truth nonsense?

Darn, Renee May said their were bad guys taking the plane. Now what? Are you going to call her a liar? She used her credit card for the seat back phone call. 10 years and this is common knowledge; where have you been?
 

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