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Flight 93

In addition to the well placed points by gumboot above, this New York Times article is very relevant in relation to the Flight 93 eyewitnesses and "ear-witnesses":

Ideas & Trends; For Air Crash Detectives, Seeing Isn't Believing


A quote from the article:
None of this is surprising, said Dr. Charles R. Honts, a professor of psychology at Boise State University and the editor of the Journal of Credibility Assessment and Witness Psychology. ''Eyewitness memory is reconstructive,'' said Dr. Honts, who is not associated with the safety board. ''The biggest mistake you can make is to think about a memory like it's a videotape; there's not a permanent record there.''

The problem, he said, is that witnesses instinctively try to match events with their past experiences: ''How many plane crashes have you witnessed in real life? Probably none. But in the movies? A lot. In the movies, there's always smoke and there's always fire.''

A must read, especially for persons like TC329.
 
In addition to the well placed points by gumboot above, this New York Times article is very relevant in relation to the Flight 93 eyewitnesses and "ear-witnesses":

Ideas & Trends; For Air Crash Detectives, Seeing Isn't Believing


A quote from the article:


A must read, especially for persons like TC329.

Unfortunately this is how those kinds of quotes are seen by twoofers:

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jsdhfjhsd dsfkj ej verbverve e rve34 3 crv erver 34 v sdvsds. wejhwer efewreg4 er grg ergekjkjg rgkjkjlku4 , herhtejr f evervejh erhr rgegb. jhsjsfd sjjhk jher84hf erhg rrgrgj erjhj3i7hbf.sdhfjhsd dsfkj ej verbverve e rve34 3 crv erver 34 v sdvsds. wejhwer efewreg4 er grg ergekjkjg rgkjkjlku4 , herhtejr f evervejh erhr rgegb. jhsjsfd sjjhk jher84hf erhg rrgrgj erjhj3i7hbf.
 
No dis-info (unintentional) either unless you can somehow prove that these people are lying.

Chris Smith the groundskeeper at Indian Lake.
Jim Stop fishing at Indian Lake.
Jim Brandt owner of Indian Lake marina.
Carol Delasko, John Fleegle, Tom Spinelli Indian Lake Employees.
Val McClatchey who hears the plane fly over her house which enables her to get a glance at it before it crashes.
Lee Purbaugh who insists the plane he watched crash was not flying upside down (which makes an impact from the North impossible).

8 Eyewitnesses.

I'm not working backwards from a predetermined conclusion, you are. That's why you flat out dismiss all these people who explain a plane coming from the Southeast towards the crash site at the exact time flight 93 is said to be approaching from the Northwest.

And you can't right this plane off as some corporate plane because from Indian Lake over McClatcheys towards the crash site makes it impossible to be the same plane that flew northeast over Susan McElwain...........

So you care to offer up any type of explanation or will you choose to just continue to attack me instead?

Did you read Posts #310 and #343? Just wondering whether you've developed your thoughts beyond blind reliance on notoriously unreliable eye/sound witness accounts in line with possible explanations that are being suggested to you, that's all. As I say, just wondering.
 
Unchained Spirit's "research" must be extensive, given the time he's taking to get back. Oh, but hang on ... no ... he continues to post elsewhere. Must be a "priority" thing. Either that or he's still insistent on debating in his own sweet time, and nobody elses.

Oh, and get this, he's actually critisizing people for not basing their arguments on facts! That's rich: "over", "overhead" ... :boggled:
 
Dom:
People that hear things are not eyewitnesses. Just thought you might want to know.


DGM:
If a low flying plane flies over your house you know it. Therefor you have an account of that plane. This makes you a witness . Just thought you might want to know.
 
Did you read Posts #310 and #343? Just wondering whether you've developed your thoughts beyond blind reliance on notoriously unreliable eye/sound witness accounts in line with possible explanations that are being suggested to you, that's all. As I say, just wondering.


Yes i read your posts. When you identify the plane and have people confirm the plane at the airport is the one they saw on 9/11 i'll give you a little bit of attention. Until then your spam deserves none.
 
Unchained Spirit's "research" must be extensive, given the time he's taking to get back. Oh, but hang on ... no ... he continues to post elsewhere. Must be a "priority" thing. Either that or he's still insistent on debating in his own sweet time, and nobody elses.

You hit the nail on the head, buddy. Actually, as I said before, nothing has yet changed my mind, either. Save the psychobabble about "eyewitnesses", too. I know about traumatic events and the aftermath. I was in Homestead Fla on Aug 24, 1992, and took a direct hit from Hurricane Andrew. I had to dig my family out from under a wall during the eye of the storm, then I got caught outside as the second band of the hurricane came over. I remember it all as vividly as if it happened 10 minutes ago.

I gave you accounts, and a link, of FIVE people who put Flight 93 coming over Indian Lake. If *you* don't believe them, it's up to YOU to prove them wrong. I don't *have* to prove they're right. Got it?

Oh, and get this, he's actually critisizing people for not basing their arguments on facts! That's rich: "over", "overhead" ... :boggled:

Prove any fact I provided is wrong. Go on now! I'll be waiting...
 
Yes i read your posts. When you identify the plane and have people confirm the plane at the airport is the one they saw on 9/11 i'll give you a little bit of attention. Until then your spam deserves none.

You'd be absolutely useless as a juror, wouldn't you, reasonable doubt, and all that! Thank goodness there are mechanisms for weeding out candidates with predispositions, biases and prejudices.
 
DGM:
If a low flying plane flies over your house you know it. Therefor you have an account of that plane. This makes you a witness . Just thought you might want to know.

Oh no, not that old "over" chestnut again!
 
You'd be absolutely useless as a juror, wouldn't you, reasonable doubt, and all that! Thank goodness there are mechanisms for weeding out candidates with predispositions, biases and prejudices.


Have you identified the plane and had people confirm the plane at the airport is the one they saw on 9/11?
 
Have you identified the plane and had people confirm the plane at the airport is the one they saw on 9/11?

Open your mind TC. I'm not seriously suggesting that that's the "small white plane" that people saw. All I'm doing is casting reasonable doubt over the origin/purpose of the "small white plane" that people did claim to see, by demonstrating the likelihood of "small white planes" being present in the area on the day. It didn't take me long to find a "small white plane" within 6 miles of the crash site on the date the Google image was captured.

Reasonable doubt TC, that's what this is all about. Why do you think that "reasonable doubt" is the maxim that the legal system goes by?
 
Open your mind TC. I'm not seriously suggesting that that's the "small white plane" that people saw. All I'm doing is casting reasonable doubt over the origin/purpose of the "small white plane" that people did claim to see, by demonstrating the likelihood of "small white planes" being present in the area on the day. It didn't take me long to find a "small white plane" within 6 miles of the crash site on the date the Google image was captured.

Reasonable doubt TC, that's what this is all about. Why do you think that "reasonable doubt" is the maxim that the legal system goes by?


taken a picture of an airport with a white plane present isn't reasonable doubt for anything. wow you proved white planes exist and park at airports which proves no one in shanksville saw anything!!!!1111111!

yawn.

the fact that white planes exist doesnt disprove or cast doubt on any eyewitness statements or prove they saw something other than what they claim they saw.

if you can find an eyewitness to confirm your claims then go right ahead and prove it. otherwise you're wasting my time which is why i initally ignored your posts.
 
taken a picture of an airport with a white plane present isn't reasonable doubt for anything. wow you proved white planes exist and park at airports which proves no one in shanksville saw anything!!!!1111111!

yawn.

the fact that white planes exist doesnt disprove or cast doubt on any eyewitness statements or prove they saw something other than what they claim they saw.

if you can find an eyewitness to confirm your claims then go right ahead and prove it. otherwise you're wasting my time which is why i initally ignored your posts.

Yeah, and nevermind the fact that, to this day, larger corporate jets still can't land at Somerset County Airport:

Somerset County Airport is located four miles north of Somerset, Pennsylvania on Highway 281. Hotels are available in town, which is just 4 miles from the airport, and right off the Pennsylvania Turnpike Somerset exit, providing all levels of accommodations and reasonable rates. A family restaurant is within walking distance just south of the airport on route 281.
We are looking to the future by improving facilities to accommodate larger corporate aircraft. One of the major improvements started this year is the extension of runway 7-25 which will make the runway length just over 5000 ft. http://somersetcoairport.com/

I don't think people confuse commercial passenger jets with cessnas, do they? I wonder if some of these "debunkers" even bother to look up facts before they post their drivel....
 
Actually, as I said before, nothing has yet changed my mind, either. Save the psychobabble about "eyewitnesses", too.

Nothing's changed your mind, but you elect not to respond constructively to arguments presented. Isn't that a little like repeatedly responding with: "because", you know, like those little pre-pubescent members of our society do?

I know about traumatic events and the aftermath. I was in Homestead Fla on Aug 24, 1992, and took a direct hit from Hurricane Andrew. I had to dig my family out from under a wall during the eye of the storm, then I got caught outside as the second band of the hurricane came over. I remember it all as vividly as if it happened 10 minutes ago.

Oh dear, how do we deal with somebody who's fallen so deeply into this trap, as I had when I took my first steps into the Forum with this thread? I suppose you could heed the views and advice provided therein, but I somehow think that might be just a little too much to ask for.

I gave you accounts, and a link, of FIVE people who put Flight 93 coming over Indian Lake. If *you* don't believe them, it's up to YOU to prove them wrong. I don't *have* to prove they're right. Got it?

Nobody has to prove anything here, Doug. But if we're to debate the events of that day meaningfully and constructively, then we have to consider possibilities and probabilities in light of the facts. Five people providing witness statements is a fact. The accuracy of those statements is not. If you maintain that witness statements should be considered to be reliable then you will likely never change your views. If, however, you take some time (your own sweet time, that is) to research the topic of accuracy or otherwise of human recollections, and how memory works, then you might start to wonder more objectively. Your call Doug.

Prove any fact I provided is wrong. Go on now! I'll be waiting...

Oh no Doug, no need for waiting with me, I like to keep the debate ticking nicely along. Shall we start by listing the facts you've provided, first ...? Er ... I'm struggling a little here. Tell you what, why don't you go first Doug, you obviously have in infallible memory!
 
taken a picture of an airport with a white plane present isn't reasonable doubt for anything. wow you proved white planes exist and park at airports which proves no one in shanksville saw anything!!!!

the fact that white planes exist doesnt disprove or cast doubt on any eyewitness statements or prove they saw something other than what they claim they saw.

Did I even suggest it proved anything? No, it simply demonstrates a reasonable likelihood of completely unrelated small white aircraft in the area. Don't you agree that that could account for the "small white aircraft" that people claim to have seen, thereby rendering such sighting irrelevant, or why there seems to be an inconsistency over Flight 93's actual flight path, because some people assumed that the plane thay saw was Flight 93, when it wasn't? I'm not asking you to prove anything - that's an unrealistic, and arguably juvenile stance. I'm just suggesting that you consider reasonable possibilities as possible explanations. That's all - nothing more.

Yeah, and nevermind the fact that, to this day, larger corporate jets still can't land at Somerset County Airport

Your point?
 
Don't you agree that that could account for the "small white aircraft" that people claim to have seen, thereby rendering such sighting irrelevant, or why there seems to be an inconsistency over Flight 93's actual flight path, because some people assumed that the plane thay saw was Flight 93, when it wasn't?

No, I do not agree.

This craft would have been at the impact spot at the time of the explosion. That local yocal pilot would have had one hell of a story to run and tell everyone especially the media. No such thing exists. Not even the fake Falcon20 cover story puts the plane at the time and altitutude that eyewitnesses do. And this isn't James Will out of Berlin, PA either that we're talking about. Once his plane was photographed and made public the Falcon20 story was invented.
 
You hit the nail on the head, buddy. Actually, as I said before, nothing has yet changed my mind, either. Save the psychobabble about "eyewitnesses", too. I know about traumatic events and the aftermath. I was in Homestead Fla on Aug 24, 1992, and took a direct hit from Hurricane Andrew. I had to dig my family out from under a wall during the eye of the storm, then I got caught outside as the second band of the hurricane came over. I remember it all as vividly as if it happened 10 minutes ago.

I gave you accounts, and a link, of FIVE people who put Flight 93 coming over Indian Lake. If *you* don't believe them, it's up to YOU to prove them wrong. I don't *have* to prove they're right. Got it?



Prove any fact I provided is wrong. Go on now! I'll be waiting...

Your hurricane experience does not change the FACT that eyewitness testimony is unreliable. The NTSB does not use any eyewitness testimony because it's proven over and over to be unusable. And they deal with hundreds of witnesses at a time, not just 5. But they still won't go by eyewitness testimony unless there is no other choice. And again their reason being because of the well known and well studies on memory and how people's recollection of things is almost never what actually happened.

And NO it's not up to us to prove them wrong, it's up to YOU to prove the inside job. using unreliable evidence that is generally unusable to dismiss the reliable evidence is not honest research.

Now, it's up to YOU to PROVE the FDR is wrong. Get back to us when you can do that.
 
Nothing's changed your mind, but you elect not to respond constructively to arguments presented. Isn't that a little like repeatedly responding with: "because", you know, like those little pre-pubescent members of our society do?

There's really nothing more that can be added constructively. You haven't changed my mind, I'm not going to change your mind, so sometimes it's just better to agree to disagree, don't you think? Or, as the old saying goes: "If you can't understand my silence, how will you *ever* understand my words?"

Oh dear, how do we deal with somebody who's fallen so deeply into this trap, as I had when I took my first steps into the Forum with this thread? I suppose you could heed the views and advice provided therein, but I somehow think that might be just a little too much to ask for.

Well, I'll say this as nicely as I can: If you let someone else convince you that your memory is false, tainted, inaccurate or whatever they want to label it, that's all on you, SouthWind, not me. You've allowed someone else to create your memory for you. I don't allow other others to dictate to me what I remember or know. Believe it or not, I can relate to your story in that link, as I have experienced similar sightings myself, and have had even closer, more personal experiences. No one, and I do mean NO ONE, will convince me otherwise, nor will they dictate to me what I saw. They weren't there, *I* was. It's really just that simple.

Nobody has to prove anything here, Doug. But if we're to debate the events of that day meaningfully and constructively, then we have to consider possibilities and probabilities in light of the facts. Five people providing witness statements is a fact. The accuracy of those statements is not. If you maintain that witness statements should be considered to be reliable then you will likely never change your views. If, however, you take some time (your own sweet time, that is) to research the topic of accuracy or otherwise of human recollections, and how memory works, then you might start to wonder more objectively. Your call Doug.

I reject psychobabble 100%. It's a wholesale pseudo-science enterprise invented to make people who couldn't cut it in the medical field rich. We can't leave out the facts when considering other possibilities and probabilities. Period. The number of witnesses I provided (5) isn't the total sum of witnesses that reported Flight 93 being over Indian Lake. Residents of Indian Lake Village called the sheriff's office and reported a plane flying overhead, falling apart and dropping pieces on their houses and in their yards. The information is available to anyone who is interested enough to look for it. I'm not here to do the homework for everyone, or anyone for that matter.

Oh no Doug, no need for waiting with me, I like to keep the debate ticking nicely along. Shall we start by listing the facts you've provided, first ...? Er ... I'm struggling a little here. Tell you what, why don't you go first Doug, you obviously have in infallible memory!

I never said my memory was infallible, did I? I said I remember ONE EVENT, a major traumatic event, like it happened 10 minutes ago. If you're struggling with the facts, I would suggest going back through this thread a few pages and refreshing your memory. The simple fact is that the witness testimony on the day of the event differs sharply from the government released "data", which was released 5 months later.
 

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