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Flight 77 flight path

Just so I'm clear. You are using Walter at least partially to support your theory?

The guy who in the picture says the 77 nose dived into the pentagon?

Surely I'm missing something.



It's not my theory it's what he outright claims mate!

Here he is on the NORTH side of the citgo describing the plane making this bank on the north side of the station!

walter-NoC.gif


Video link here.

If you haven't figured it out yet it's impossible for the plane to cause the damage from there and this is where all of the witnesses in a position to see the gas station place it.

Put that together with Lloyde's proven false impossible story and virtual admission of involvement and the implications are clear to honest objective skeptics.
 
All angles? Who? The commuters on the motorway out of view of the Pentagon facade?

No one would need to see the facade if the jet "flew over and away from the Pentagon," as you claim, correct, mudlark?

Traffic was freely moving. Most would have seen the fireball after it had happened.
You don't have any knowledge of what hundreds of drivers would see or not see. You refused to interview them. And you have no reports from anyone of any "flyover."

In fact, many drivers were facing the explosion and the so-called "flyover" jet would have been coming directly at them with the explosion going off in the background. And you know that is precisely why you canot draw any "flyover" flightpath over the Pentagon.

Airplanes are a common site flying over the Pentagon.
There is nothing common with a 757 flying at top speed, low and loud over the Pentagon while an explosion goes off on one facade. Remember, Craig Ranke showed us this:



What a wonderful view of something that never happens nor ever happened. Just look how easily it would have been seen, courtesy of Craig Ranke!

Just think how those drivers and long-time commuters would react having seen a never-before-seen sight of a 757 moving faster and lower than any departing or approaching jet from and to Reagan ever had done before, loud as hell, along with a freaking explosion going off behind the jet, then hearing all the subsequent media reports from that moment until today that the jet crashed into the Pentagon and didn't fly over it. You would think they would remain silent, eh?

The roads and motorways facing the west face of the Pentagon? Have you ever seen the topography of that area? Trees and bridges block most views.
Once again, you stick your foot in your mouth claiming to know what hundreds of people would have seen or not seen after you, CIT, and P4T, refused to interview them for the last 8 years. And let me refresh your memory:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread378783/pg50#pid4823797

And just look at the wonderful view of the so-called "flyover" CIT gave you - the view that nobody ever saw of something that never happened.

No wonder you cannot demonstrate your fantasy "flyover," mudlark.
 
That was an incredibly weak response. Were the conspirators TRYING to be risky when they carried out this "plot?"

That was a speculatory answer to a speculatory question Jack.
You´d have to ask those who were involved.
 
It's not my theory it's what he outright claims mate!

Here he is on the NORTH side of the citgo describing the plane making this bank on the north side of the station!.

So explain to me why CIT say he is a lying cover agent then Mud?

Because right now you're saying Walters is the worst shill ever
 
It's not my theory it's what he outright claims mate!

Here he is on the NORTH side of the citgo describing the plane making this bank on the north side of the station!

walter-NoC.gif


...
walterbankgif.gif


What? This guy says 77 hit, so you are saying 77 hit? You are dropping the dolts at p4t?
 
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You obviously don't know what corroboration of evidence is. Testimony doesn't mean squat unless you can corroborate it with physical evidence. You can't corroborate testimony with no plane, unless you know where that plane is, and by your own admission, you don't know where it it went.

On the other hand, the rational one, you have testimony of the plane crashing into the Pentagon, corroborated by physical evidence such as DNA, plane debris and FDR. Get it? Or is this too hard for you?

Wow is nobody following the links?
There is no documented DNA, retrieval OR identification.
There are no documented plane parts.
The FDR path was witnessed by who? How did it withstand the g-forces necessary given the data extracted?
The physical evidence is officially non existent in the case of the plane parts
and DNA documents are withheld under the ´National Security´ blanket.
 
It's not my theory it's what he outright claims mate!
He also claims he saw it nose dive into the Pentagon, "mate". So you believe the part that matches with your fantasy but ignore the part that doesn't.

I can think of a few explanations for such beliefs.

Cognitive dissonance
Mental illness
Trolling

Have a nice life.
 
@Mudlark:

So, what you and CIT are saying is that Mike Walters is telling the truth when you want him to, but absolutely lying through his teeth so much that CIT say he is a shill.....

..... AT THE SAME TIME.

??? Seriously ???
 
@Mudlark:

So, what you and CIT are saying is that Mike Walters is telling the truth when you want him to, but absolutely lying through his teeth so much that CIT say he is a shill.....

..... AT THE SAME TIME.

??? Seriously ???

Truthers cherry pick eyewitness testimony?! (sarcasm) No way! (sarcasm off)
 
Lies. Zero problems with the FDR, you just say there were without presenting evidence; you point at the idiots at p4t who have not done anything as they "offer no theories".

Lie, there are many witnesses to the actual path.

Math, with the 11.2G wave your hand make up the numbers math of p4t, failure is complete.

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/911pentagonflight77evidencesummary


If you fall for lies like CIT, what will keep you from falling for other fraud. CIT is a fraud, not recognizing that is self-critiquing.



The link you sent has went 404 I think. You need to link me to another site.
I gotta see these ´104 witnesses´.

On the G-forces?

Watch the revised calculations done by Pilotsfor911truth. Hats off to them for correcting and admitting their mistake.

They go on to show the fallacies in the attempts by detractors to work out the G-forces themselves.

Forgive me if I use their words in the most part to explain this.

Calculator was only applicable to a one dimensional calculation and didn´t take into account the TWO dimensional calc necessary.

(02:24 minutes)

One dimensional = vertical velocity vector
Two dimensional= vertical AND horizontal velocity
= total velocity vector


Altitude, vertical speed and attitude data were left out of the attempted debunk.
This data was provided by NTSB.
This parabolic formula, based on false assumptions recorded a maximum g-force of 1.62 for the least challenging scenario from the VDOT Tower.
This figure was arrived at without taking into account the linear trends provided by the NTSB.
A follow-up attempted bunk of P4911T calculations taking these omitted parameters into consideration was attempted and arrived at a SUSTAINED 4g pull from the FDR altitude above the VDOT tower through to being level across the lawn.

Also during the ´debunker´ calculations:

Based on these calculations, there is absolutely no case to be made that

1)the obstacles are inconsistent with the impact of Flight 77

2)the FDR data is inconsistent with the impact of Flight 77, or

3)the FDR data is inconsistent with impacts to the obstacles themselves

The 1.62g derived was required for a full 4 seconds.

The highest recorded g-force taken from the FDR data was 1.75g for
1/8th OF A SECOND.

Averaging the g load over a 4 second duration taken from the CSV File
a total og 1.17gs is derived.

Certainly NOT 4gs over 4 seconds either!

The parabola scenario DOES present a possible descent through obstacles and topography yet it is NOT consistent with the NTSB provided data.

As has been pointed out to me on this thread the FDR translation of data done by Pilotsfor911Truth matches the government translations.
This also includes Altimeter and vertical speed data which MUST be included. Any attempts to debunk the accuracy of this data or that data is missing in the final seconds of the approach is thoroughly debunked and in some cases even accomodated to but still calculated in the following thread.

06:48 minutes

3D animation program used, scaled to exact measurements and topography and obstacles in the immediate area and the path in question.

To accomodate debunkers, even though the data regarding height above the VDOT Tower is 699ft , P4911T lowered the plane´s altitude at this point to just above the tower.

The scale of the 3D animation was:

1cm = 100ft
An arc was drawn based on the pull-up needed.
The radius of the arc was calculated at 20.85 cm

The radius was then calculated in feet:

100 x 20.85 = 2085 ft.

A formula to calculate acceleration required using the arc:

a=v²/r

Speed according to FDR is 781f/s

V=781 f/s^2 = 609961

609961/2085 = 292.2 f/s^2

G Force = (292.2 f/s^2)/32 f/s^2 = 9.14 G

1G must be added for earth´s gravity so:

Total G Force Required = 10.14 G

Transport category aircraft are limited to 2.5 G Limit (maybe a little more) but 10.14 Gs??

Remember these calculations are for the LEAST challenging path from the VDOT Tower which remember has been lowered contradicting the FDR data.

If the FDR data is followed on altitude from the VDOT Tower following the same calculations, a 576.9 ft radius is derived.
Plotting this radius into the same formula:

781(f/s)² = 609,961
609,961/576.9 = 1057.3
1057.3/32 = 33G
33 + 1 = 34 Gs Required

THIS is the proper way to determine G loads in a TWO dimensional problem such as an aircraft pulling out of a dive.

Another argument put forward is that the plane was NOT on a level approach across the lawn and this would lessen the G forces required.
The damage caused to the building and explained by the ASCE report REQUIRES this trajectory. Does that mean the gatecam really IS a fake if we argue this point?
Would this not weaken the argument on the lateral forces exerted to a 94 metre length in 8/10ths of a second?
The ASCE report stated that the roof of floor showed that the plane had exerted an upward force on it.

The Perdue simulation based on the ASCE report:


simulation1.jpg


simulation2.jpg


If the data is followed to a tee as it HAS to be all the problems
and mathematical and physical IMPOSSIBILITIES had to be addressed by
this group of professional pilots.
They admitted to making mistakes and have rectified them.


P4911T calculations are based on the g-force REQUIRED from the official NTSB data taken from the FDR as regards the descent from the VDOT Tower on Columbia Pike.

A minimum of 10.14 Gs is REQUIRED. This was based on the LEAST difficult path and was not based on the FDR data but to accomodate
detractors.
If the official data is followed it requires a 34G manouevre from the FDR altimeter reading of 699ft agl from the VDOT Tower.
These numbers weren´t pulled out of the air. It´s there on the FDR.
The Altimeter readings also make it an IMPOSSIBILITY that damage was caused to obstacles such as the lightpoles, trailer and even the Pentagon facade itself.
 
Wow is nobody following the links?
There is no documented DNA, retrieval OR identification.
There are no documented plane parts.
The FDR path was witnessed by who? How did it withstand the g-forces necessary given the data extracted?
The physical evidence is officially non existent in the case of the plane parts
and DNA documents are withheld under the ´National Security´ blanket.
Yes there was documented DNA, there had to be to identify the dead soldiers it was required and was done. You are a liar.

The plane parts are documented from Flight 77 due to the fact the parts were from 77 which was confirmed by RADAR, FDR, and the fact the people who were on the jet were found dead where the jet impacted. Sorry, you failed to use logic again; why?

What G force, the largest g force besides impact was 2.26 G. p4t G force required are due to ignorance.

Flt77MW.jpg


You need to get Mike back out where he was; where was he when he saw the impact? lol, he saw the impact. Great proving your ideas are failed by presenting your own debunking witnesses.

Can you get Mike to say 77 did not hit the lampposts? Bet you could join CIT and be another top notch investigator.
 
HOCKEY STICK!.

Hockey Stick! Moron liars post an absolutely insane impossible instantaneous turn! HOCKEY STICK

He went full hockey stick!

Hahahahahahahahaha!

God, mud, you are ****ing brilliant!

Hockey stick, oh my stars.

He reposted the ****ing hockey stick lie, oh man, this is the greatest thread EVER!
 
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Oh, look. The guy who claimed he was not a Truther and was only asking "legitimate questions" about 9/11 turns out to be a hardcore CIT cultist, possibly the stupidest subset of Truthers out there. Quelle surprise!


Edit: and it appears Mudlark is now acting as Rob Balsamo's proxy. I wonder if he realizes that posting-by-proxy from a banned member is itself bannable offense?
 
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Watch the revised calculations done by Pilotsfor911truth. Hats off to them for correcting and admitting their mistake.



...

The 1.62g derived was required for a full 4 seconds.

The highest recorded g-force taken from the FDR data was 1.75g for
1/8th OF A SECOND.

...

Averaging the g load over a 4 second duration taken from the CSV File
a total og 1.17gs is derived.

Certainly NOT 4gs over 4 seconds either!

...

...

Total G Force Required = 10.14 G

Transport category aircraft are limited to 2.5 G Limit (maybe a little more) but 10.14 Gs??

...
If the FDR data is followed on altitude from the VDOT Tower following the same calculations, a 576.9 ft radius is derived.
Plotting this radius into the same formula:

781(f/s)² = 609,961
609,961/576.9 = 1057.3
1057.3/32 = 33G
33 + 1 = 34 Gs Required

THIS is the proper way to determine G loads in a TWO dimensional problem such as an aircraft pulling out of a dive.
...
A minimum of 10.14 Gs is REQUIRED. This was based on the LEAST difficult path and was not based on the FDR data but to accomodate
detractors.
If the official data is followed it requires a 34G manouevre from the FDR altimeter reading of 699ft agl from the VDOT Tower.
These numbers weren´t pulled out of the air. It´s there on the FDR.
The Altimeter readings also make it an IMPOSSIBILITY that damage was caused to obstacles such as the lightpoles, trailer and even the Pentagon facade itself.
lol
This is pure poppycock hockey stick pull out junk. You can get any G-force value you want using the insane approach of Balsamo. I can use his method and come up with any g-force you want. If only you could do physics and knew how to fly.

The fact is you are wrong and Balsamo is dirt dumb stupid.
The final 4 seconds of G average 1.4, and are as follows.

0.725
0.659
0.92
0.858
0.94
1.121
0.828
0.783
0.982
0.986
0.927
0.776
1.25
1.037
1.231
1.721
1.604
1.781
1.762
1.964
1.879
2.264
2.044
2.181
1.675
1.744
1.65
1.504
1.785
1.655
1.861
1.946
Above values at 8 Hz. That is 8 samples per second for Balsamo.
The last second is 1.7 G - close to real physics, like flying predicted by real scientist and verified by the FDR! The second before, 1.93 G, almost 2 Gs, fits the prediction and exactly how a bad pilot flies.

Bad news, Flight 77 is at 317 MSL passing the VDOT tower (304 MSL), that is 183 feet AGL, not 699 AGL. You are as bad as Balsamo and his 11.2G failed physics still posted at p4t dolt web site that mainly attracts dirt dumb neoNAZIs who hate the government. (317MSL, 183AGL)

One of the CIT witnesses said 77 almost hit the VDOT tower - confirms 317 MSL and the FDR! BINGO

34 Gs, now that is dirt dumb...

... Watch the revised calculations done by Pilotsfor911truth. Hats off to them for correcting and admitting their mistake.
Hats off? lol the 11.2G failure titled "03/13/08 - Beware The Ides Of March" super stupid anti-physics course by Balsamo and p4t paranoid pilots who spew delusions about 911 is still posted today. I just copied the page to take to math classes and show why education is important. Still posted from 03/13/08, to 11/13/09. Was it the delusional math that got you interested in p4t where math is not required, you can just spew any old numbers you want to go with your delusions.
Flt77p4tdolt11pt2Gs.jpg

Still posted to trap the math failures.
 
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This is like Life, the Universe, and Everything, chapter 34. I'm not sure how much more Truth we can tolerate.

Radar data which contradicts all witness testimony and matches the FDR where g force values have been calculated to impossible extremities.
The revised calculations done by Pilotsfor911truth prove this.

From Rob Balsamo's opening post in that thread:
2. Claim - The FDR Data stops/is missing 2-6 seconds of data west of the pentagon wall

Just a few weeks ago, Warren Stutt succeeded in decoding 4 more seconds of data from the raw FDR file. So yes, the data were hidden within the raw file, but all of the PfT's high and mighty claims about the completeness of the FDR decode they've been using are now known to have been complete rubbish.

Warren's accomplishment also destroys much of the evidence Balsamo cited to counter several of the other claims listed in that post.

Your continued refusal to deal with actual mathematics or physics is noted:
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/will/Music/Jokes/Balsamo/balsamo2.html

The simple calculation I made on speed even throws doubt on the validity of this data.
Lightpole 1 to Pentagon facade in just over a second??

In one of the videos you cited, Rob Balsamo calculated 1.3 seconds. Disagreeing with Balsamo's calculations is generally wise, but he's right about that one.

I´m sure there are a stream of posts ahead querying the validity of these calculations but I will address them.

If you continue to address them with your customary efficacy, we're going to die laughing before you finish.

Will
 
The link you sent has went 404 I think. You need to link me to another site.
I gotta see these ´104 witnesses´..

You must have only checked 2 links before you gave up.

One I think is only temporarily down at web.archive.org, one is geocities so probably down forever... the others are fine. One of them is even from Jim Hoffman's 911 REsearch! But yea I know, he's a shill as well.

edit: Ive just checked at 911 Research Hoffman has mirrored the pages that are down so you need not fret.

The real question you dont want to answer is why none of them saw the plane fly over. Did the conspirators just get lucky?
 
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At 350 mph, the kinetic energy is less than half the kinetic energy at 540 mph. The fuel and resulting fire would have been about the same, although differences in kinetic energy would have affected the structure in ways that might have affected the fire.
Would it have affected the ability to penetrate at such a high rate if at all?



The energy lost to the light poles would have been negligible. The collision with the trailer involved more loss of energy, but even that had to have been small compared to the collision with the Pentagon. A glance at the damage caused by each collision shows why.

But at the lower speed of @350mph? You are sure of this because? I just find it hard to swallow that all these precollisions would not have damaged the wings. Especially at a lower speed.



If you're saying ground-based RADES radar didn't detect any evidence of a flyover, and there are also no witnesses for the flyover path, then you should draw the obvious conclusion. If you're saying flight 77 wasn't tracked by RADES, or there are no witnesses for the path that matches the physical and FDR evidence, then you're badly mistaken.

I would appreciate knowing exactly who these witnesses are.
I´ve outlined in earlier posts why I don´t trust the validity of the RADES data.
There are witnesses to anomalies AFTER the explosion.
Roosevelt Roberts, Maria de la Cerda, Dewitt Roseborough, comments heard by Eric Dihle. Mr Gurba, the witnesses Dave Statter interviewed who said the "pilot tried to avert the building" and the plane "went to the side of the building not directly in" (404ed). Even an online blogsite has a description of a flyover dated Sept. 12th.
Of course the most prominent is Roberts.


At least two separate ground-based radars recorded the last minute or so of flight 77, until the low-flying plane's radar return was lost among radar reflections from buildings. Those radar records are consistent with the 500+ mph speeds recorded by the flight data recorder. Based on that physical evidence, there were 4 to 5 seconds between the Navy Annex and the Pentagon impact.

How do you explain the 10-15 seconds described by witnesses?
The plane came over the right side facing the Pentagon at a bank.
No way it reached in 4-5 seconds. Just over 1 second to reach the Pentagon facade from lightpole 1? Then 8/10ths of a second to penetrate?
How are the Route 27 witnesses so specific in their detail?
It would have been a blur.

Even Mike Dobbs who was on the fourth floor of the Pentagon where the plane allegedly hit said he saw it for 10 seconds.
Problem? The RADES data is suspect for me. Eyewitness accounts are too many to disregard unless somebody comes up with an explanation.



It's okay to talk math here. The mathematics that has been posted so far suggests your theory would require extraterrestrial maneuverability and a SEP field.

So your disbelief is sufficient to reject evidence (first sentence), but no one else's disbelief counts for anything (second sentence).
:rolleyes:

Have you any idea of the math necessary to reach lightpole 1 from NOC and turn to a low level approach (even more so at 540mph)?
Beam me up Scotty :)
 
Have you any idea of the math necessary

Let me guess, a hockey stick turn of 34 g?

What incredible frauds! and you reposted that insane bit of pure lie here?

Fantastic!

Keep posting One Slice, people forget how dumb the no planers at the Pentagon are.
 

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