Flight 175 plane speed challenged

[DGM]

I'm not sure what the debate is about. The plane is on video going the speed stated. Are they claiming the video (of impact) is fake? What the hell is their point?

 

[Reheat]

I'm not sure what the debate is about.

It's about FUD from troofers, that's all.

 

[firecoins]

Flight 175 was videotaped hitting the tower. Nothing else need be debated.

 

[DGM]

Flight 175 was videotaped hitting the tower. Nothing else need be debated.

Good, it's not only me.

 

[beachnut]

facts?

Flight 175 was videotaped hitting the tower. Nothing else need be debated.

Facts? Why are you using facts? Zen does not deal in facts, he is presenting the lack of facts from 9/11 truth. If truthers used facts, there would be no truthers, no silly posts, no Zen.

Zen presents a video so full of useless information. You present the facts and then what can zen do?

 

[ZENSMACK89]

Facts? Why are you using facts? Zen does not deal in facts, he is presenting the lack of facts from 9/11 truth. If truthers used facts, there would be no truthers, no silly posts, no Zen.

Zen presents a video so full of useless information. You present the facts and then what can zen do?

For flight 175 alone there is no black box meaning no flight data and no voice data, a changing transponder code, no one with the experience or skill to fly the plane the way it is claimed, not one serially controlled part of the plane offered up as identification, and supposedly only 12 victim remains identified out of 65 but you have a pristine passport of one of the hijackers of the other plane conveniently found in the rubble of two fallen skyscrapers.

These are your facts?

 

[pomeroo]

For flight 175 alone there is no black box meaning no flight data and no voice data, a changing transponder code, no one with the experience or skill to fly the plane the way it is claimed, not one serially controlled part of the plane offered up as identification, and supposedly only 12 victim remains identified out of 65 but you have a pristine passport of one of the hijackers of the other plane conveniently found in the rubble of two fallen skyscrapers.

These are your facts?

Have you taken the ultimate plunge for a twoofer and become a no-planer? What is your current position on the reality of the aircraft that crashed into the Twin Towers?

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

For flight 175 alone there is no black box meaning no flight data and no voice data

An aircraft plows into a skyscraper at 500 miles an hour and you need the black box to tell you what happened?

Is "KER-SPLAT" too technical for you?

 

[ZENSMACK89]

Have you taken the ultimate plunge for a twoofer and become a no-planer? What is your current position on the reality of the aircraft that crashed into the Twin Towers?

I think that the planes on 9/11 were not identified in the same manner as other plane disasters in the past.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/groundzero/index.html

BLACK BOX COVER-UP

Rescue workers silenced after exposing 9-11 whitewash

DeMasi said the “black boxes” were found while he traversed “ground zero” in his all-terrain vehicle (ATV) with three federal agents.

FBI and New York fire officials have denied ever finding the voice and data recorders.

Now Bellone claims agents were adamant about keeping the discovery a secret.

“They confronted me and told me to not to say anything,” recalled Bellone, referring to one of three reddish-orange boxes with two white stripes he saw in the back of DeMasi’s ATV. “I said, ‘Give me a good reason.’ When they couldn’t, I told them I wouldn’t shut up about it.

“Why should I? I have nothing to hide and nothing to gain. It’s the truth, and Nick and I are sticking to our story as we always have.”

Bellone said he and DeMasi were not the only 9-11 rescue workers to see the “black boxes.” He said there were several other witnesses and said he knows they have been silenced by federal agents.

 

[pomeroo]

I think that the planes on 9/11 were not identified in the same manner as other plane disasters in the past.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/groundzero/index.html

BLACK BOX COVER-UP

Rescue workers silenced after exposing 9-11 whitewash

DeMasi said the “black boxes” were found while he traversed “ground zero” in his all-terrain vehicle (ATV) with three federal agents.

FBI and New York fire officials have denied ever finding the voice and data recorders.

Now Bellone claims agents were adamant about keeping the discovery a secret.

“They confronted me and told me to not to say anything,” recalled Bellone, referring to one of three reddish-orange boxes with two white stripes he saw in the back of DeMasi’s ATV. “I said, ‘Give me a good reason.’ When they couldn’t, I told them I wouldn’t shut up about it.

“Why should I? I have nothing to hide and nothing to gain. It’s the truth, and Nick and I are sticking to our story as we always have.”

Bellone said he and DeMasi were not the only 9-11 rescue workers to see the “black boxes.” He said there were several other witnesses and said he knows they have been silenced by federal agents.

Typically, you trot out ancient, thoroughly debunked rubbish and offer it as a revelation. Try some critical thinking:

What data could the flight recorders contain that your imaginary conspiracy would not want the public to be aware of? Suggest something.

Is it conceivable that anyone could have guessed, in the wake of the horrific collapses of the Towers, that people would eventually try to pretend that no planes hit the buildings? Do you think that the no-plane theory occurred to anyone sane?

The "agents" who silenced the "witnesses"--what agency were they working for?

How do the "witnesses" make sense of this mystery?

 

[ZENSMACK89]

Typically, you trot out ancient, thoroughly debunked rubbish and offer it as a revelation. Try some critical thinking:

Debunked by whom with what credentials?

What data could the flight recorders contain that your imaginary conspiracy would not want the public to be aware of? Suggest something.

To believe your nonsense is to wonder why they even have black boxes or bothered to search for them.

Is it conceivable that anyone could have guessed, in the wake of the horrific collapses of the Towers, that people would eventually try to pretend that no planes hit the buildings? Do you think that the no-plane theory occurred to anyone sane?

What? Debunking CT is the only use of a black box and serial numbers on plane parts?

The "agents" who silenced the "witnesses"--what agency were they working for?

Try reading the link I posted genius. It's not hard. Don't bother replying I've heard enough of your scary facts and so-called debunking.

Next

 

[R.Mackey]

I think that the planes on 9/11 were not identified in the same manner as other plane disasters in the past.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/groundzero/index.html

BLACK BOX COVER-UP

Rescue workers silenced after exposing 9-11 whitewash

DeMasi said the “black boxes” were found while he traversed “ground zero” in his all-terrain vehicle (ATV) with three federal agents.

Demasi is a fraud.

That's a highly selective fact-filter you've got bolted to your noggin, kid.

 

[Corsair 115]

...no one with the experience or skill to fly the plane the way it is claimed...

You keep making the same basic mistake. It did NOT take skill to fly the aircraft the way it was flown. Indeed, its maneuvers demonstrate that a lesser skilled person was at the controls.

You could test this for yourself. Read a few flight manuals, take a few training flights with an instructor, then go buy yourself some time in a real 767 simulator. Since simulators are designed for the express purpose of training pilots on the aircraft, the simulator mimics the behaviour of the real aircraft extremely closely. So you'd be as close to flying the real thing as you can get without actually flying the real thing.

If sim time is too expensive for you, there's always a cheaper, though less precise, option. Pick up Microsoft Flight Simulator X or similar program. If there isn't a 767 with the software, get a mod which adds one. Then, fly that around. Granted, such programs don't come close to simulating all the details of the physics of flight as compared to a real simulator, but they do a reasonably good job for what they are.

With either option, you'll find flying is not as hard as you seem to think it is. Landing is hard, yes, but just flying from point A to point B is not. Abusing an aircraft with harsh maneuvers isn't hard either.

 

[SpitfireIX]

I think that the planes on 9/11 were not identified in the same manner as other plane disasters in the past.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/groundzero/index.html

BLACK BOX COVER-UP

Rescue workers silenced after exposing 9-11 whitewash

DeMasi said the “black boxes” were found while he traversed “ground zero” in his all-terrain vehicle (ATV) with three federal agents.

FBI and New York fire officials have denied ever finding the voice and data recorders.

Now Bellone claims agents were adamant about keeping the discovery a secret.

“They confronted me and told me to not to say anything,” recalled Bellone, referring to one of three reddish-orange boxes with two white stripes he saw in the back of DeMasi’s ATV. “I said, ‘Give me a good reason.’ When they couldn’t, I told them I wouldn’t shut up about it.

“Why should I? I have nothing to hide and nothing to gain. It’s the truth, and Nick and I are sticking to our story as we always have.”

Bellone said he and DeMasi were not the only 9-11 rescue workers to see the “black boxes.” He said there were several other witnesses and said he knows they have been silenced by federal agents.

The link you provided does not go to the story you quote, but no matter; following is a link to an abridged version of the original article that has been parroted by numerous conspiracist web sites.

I dealt with this claim last year in this post on bautforum:

. . . I can prove that the person making those claims is either mistaken or lying.

Here is the claim.

Proof: The claim is that Federal agents simply showed up at the site, and the ATV driver took them around and found three of the flight recorders. This requires that all three of the recorders not be buried under any significant amount of debris, and yet have escaped being noticed by any of the recovery workers. It is just barely possible that two from the same plane might be found this way, had they somehow stayed together in a small section of wreckage, but having recorders from both planes turn up on the same day is a virtual impossibility. The most likely explanation is that the agents were looking for something else, and the driver and his partner simply assumed that the items found were flight recorders.

Another problem with the story is the "million dollars worth of equipment." No special equipment can help find flight recorders on land--the only sort of beacon with which they're equipped is a sound beacon that activates if the devices are submerged in water. See here for a description.

[edit: Another point--even if special equipment were available to help find flight recorders, it would have been operated by technicians from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), and not Federal law-enforcement agents. Law-enforcement only participates in crash investigations when foul play is suspected or known to have occurred. In the case of September 11, the FBI took over the investigation immediately, as the criminal nature of the crashes was self-evident. However, the NTSB provided technical assistance with various aspects of post-crash reconstruction of events.]

Also, if this person knew so much, why didn't he just "disappear?"

 

[BenBurch]

If you are going to use a consumer simulator, use X-Plane as it has the best physics.

 

[TjW]

For flight 175 alone there is no black box meaning no flight data and no voice data, a changing transponder code, no one with the experience or skill to fly the plane the way it is claimed, not one serially controlled part of the plane offered up as identification, and supposedly only 12 victim remains identified out of 65 but you have a pristine passport of one of the hijackers of the other plane conveniently found in the rubble of two fallen skyscrapers.

These are your facts?

No, those are your factoids and assertions.

Flight data and voice data are not always recovered after an accident. That they weren't recovered or working after slamming into a building, burning for awhile with much more fuel (the building contents) than there would be in a typical crash, been in the middle of a building collapse, then smoldered under the building rubble for weeks, surprises me very little.
But you find it suspicious. I think that says more about your reasoning ability than it does about the plausibility of any particular scenario.

A changing transponder code. So? It was a trick. It worked. I would like to point out that since autopilots can't change the transponder code, the changing of the code contraindicates a remote-controlled takeover.

Your opinion: no one with the experience or the skill to fly the plane was onboard.
My opinion: No great skill at aviation was required or demonstrated in the flight.
Frankly, I think they were overqualified.
I'd bet money you could:
Take virtually any student that has soloed a Cessna 150.
Train him using only commercially-available-for the-PC flight sim software as a procedures trainer. I don't think much of them as simulating real flying experience, but for drilling on knob and switch placement and following procedures, they'd be perfectly adequate.
Put him in one of the 6-degree-of-freedom simulators, and he would be successful 3 times out of 4 attempts.

In point of fact, ISTR someone in the Netherlands doing something similar, though I don't have a link handy. The student was successful 3 out of 3, no problem, with far less than months of study and no religious convictions driving him.

Serial numbered parts: Would you really accept any information released to you by the the U.S. government on serial numbers of parts found while investigating the attack?

If your answer is no, then why even ask about information the existence of which is not going to change your position?

If your answer is yes, you would, then why is the DNA identification of twelve of the passengers not sufficient to uniquely identify flight 175?
DNA is a lot harder to forge than serial numbers on mechanical parts.

The passport from a different aircraft: that doesn't make it impossible for an adequate suicide pilot to be on board Flight 175. But it has such a nice emotional appeal to it.

 

[pomeroo]

Debunked by whom with what credentials?

http://911myths.com/html/black_boxes.html

To believe your nonsense is to wonder why they even have black boxes or bothered to search for them.

Gee, it appears as though you're suffering from a failure of imagination, something unusual for fantasists. Are you really trying?

C'mon, ZEN, tell us what the black boxes could conceivably show. You don't want us to think that you're just blowing smoke again, do you?

What? Debunking CT is the only use of a black box and serial numbers on plane parts?

But the plane was identified, ZEN. Only you conspiracy liars pretend that it wasn't.

Try reading the link I posted genius. It's not hard. Don't bother replying I've heard enough of your scary facts and so-called debunking.

Next

That's funny. You were pounded flat and you're the one saying "Next"?
Understandably, you're dreading a reply, but I think I'll disappoint you.

WHAT COULD THE BLACK BOXES TELL US?

 

[Bell]

For flight 175 alone there is no black box meaning no flight data and no voice data, a changing transponder code, no one with the experience or skill to fly the plane the way it is claimed, not one serially controlled part of the plane offered up as identification, and supposedly only 12 victim remains identified out of 65 but you have a pristine passport of one of the hijackers of the other plane conveniently found in the rubble of two fallen skyscrapers.

These are your facts?

The found the black boxes of AA77 and UA93, are these genuine? Did these record the actual events?

ETA: The recordings (or transcripts) as provided to the public, that is.

 

[CurtC]

Oh Noes! Terrorist Flies Airplane In An Unsafe Manner!

BFD.

 

[gumboot]

Oh Noes! Terrorist Flies Airplane In An Unsafe Manner!

BFD.

One thing that has bemused me about 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, since day one, is this general line of reasoning that either goes "omg if teh planes fly like that they will break apart and crash!" and the other going "no one ever flies like that, so teh pilots were teh leet".

As if crashing an airliner was somehow some incredible gifted act. Yes that's right. Conspiracy theorist seem to forget the minor detail that all four aircraft crashed. Crashing is generally a sign of poor piloting.

-Gumboot