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First GOP debate

JudeBrando said:
http://answerology.cosmopolitan.com...EO-of-Godfather-Pizza-so-are-they-racist.html

"After the debate, Frank Luntz did a focus group of about 40 Republicans - about half of them conservative, the rest moderate. They were almost all white - I think there was ONE black lady in the room.

When he asked how many of them think Cain won the debate - they all raised their hands. Only one of them had heard of Cain before - now all of them are enthused about him."


"If white conservatives and Tea Party members who would NEVER vote for Obama enthusiastically support a black man like Herman Cain - then how can you characterize them as racist?

After all, Herman Cain is, in many ways "more blacK" than Obama - Obama's really bi-racial, after all, and he went to Ivy League schools. Cain has a deep Southern accent and a very different biography.

Maybe it has nothing to do with race for most conservatives - they just don't like Obama's ideology, while they love Herman Cain's life story, his ideology, etc."



http://tweetbeat.com/events/17176-herman-cain-wins-fox-news-gop-presidential-debate?mqeve=fot
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Who says they were tea partiers? Wait, you arent saying the tea partiers are the more conservative republicans are you? I thought they were all partys, all colors and creeds?
 
I Am The Scum said:
They've updated the page, but earlier they said "since AP didn't take any photos, here's a stick figure drawing we made of what the debate probably looked like."
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Ahhh! Now I see!

I was wondering if the St. Petersburg Times is an AP member whether any photo they used (even one provided by Fox) could be construed to be an AP photo. . .
 
Ausmerican said:
Who says they were tea partiers? Wait, you arent saying the tea partiers are the more conservative republicans are you? I thought they were all partys, all colors and creeds?
Click to expand...

Get with it, man!

This guy Cain is the ex CEO of Godfather's Pizza.

We, like, could be talking free pizza here.
 
Ausmerican said:
Who says they were tea partiers?
Click to expand...
No one said that. Did you happen to see the "If" that you quoted?
Ausmerican said:
Wait, you arent saying the tea partiers are the more conservative republicans are you?
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I didn't say anything and the quotes from the article didn't say that either, so how and why did you come up with the "more" part? Did you happen to see the "and" that you quoted?
Ausmerican said:
I thought they were all partys, all colors and creeds?
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They are whoever they are that happens to agree with them despite the constant attempts to impugn them for their dissent.


Now, why would you feel some such need to avoid, evade and change the question? Whether or not some of those people are Tea Party members or supporters, would you expect conservative/libertarians to be more Republican or more Democratic? Did you happen to see the mid-term election results? Of course you did, but you have some other point for some reason. Why make such a point of distraction from the question you quoted?

How many here always say Republicans and conservatives and Tea Party members are racist? Here, let me help- many of you and very frequently. In fact, it is a nauseating cliche of the liberal/Progressive/Democratic playbook to so denigrate and impugn the opposition. It is a obvious, deliberate and scurrilous lie, but the truth doesn't matter near as much as hating right-wingers.

However, since you felt it necessary to respond in such a way, Ausmerican, perhaps you could try again to actually answer the question posed:
"If white conservatives and Tea Party members who would NEVER vote for Obama enthusiastically support a black man like Herman Cain - then how can you characterize them as racist?
Click to expand...


But for some, dismissing them with the most-worn race-card pejorative is far preferable to allowing that good and decent people can disagree with lefties without being the most-vile and despicable human beings they are regularly slandered as by far too many of their fellow citizens.
Maybe it has nothing to do with race for most conservatives - they just don't like Obama's ideology, while they love Herman Cain's life story, his ideology, etc."
Click to expand...
 
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JudeBrando said:
http://answerology.cosmopolitan.com...EO-of-Godfather-Pizza-so-are-they-racist.html

"After the debate, Frank Luntz did a focus group of about 40 Republicans - about half of them conservative, the rest moderate. They were almost all white - I think there was ONE black lady in the room.

When he asked how many of them think Cain won the debate - they all raised their hands. Only one of them had heard of Cain before - now all of them are enthused about him."


"If white conservatives and Tea Party members who would NEVER vote for Obama enthusiastically support a black man like Herman Cain - then how can you characterize them as racist?

After all, Herman Cain is, in many ways "more blacK" than Obama - Obama's really bi-racial, after all, and he went to Ivy League schools. Cain has a deep Southern accent and a very different biography.

Maybe it has nothing to do with race for most conservatives - they just don't like Obama's ideology, while they love Herman Cain's life story, his ideology, etc."



http://tweetbeat.com/events/17176-herman-cain-wins-fox-news-gop-presidential-debate?mqeve=fot
Click to expand...


Let's review:

About 20 conservative Republicans demonstrated themselves to not be racist.

You then use that to conclude most conservatives are not racist.

So how many conservatives espousing a racist point of view would it take to convince you most conservative are racist?

According to your own methodology, about 20.

Hmm... I wonder how difficult it would be to come up with 20 conservatives espousing a racist point of view...
 
Puppycow said:
Apparently these people think that Cain won the debate:
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I wouldn't be surprised if Frank Luntz picked a not-so-random sample. People hire him when they want data to be distorted.

By the way, one of the top comments on that vid is "19 dancing Oswalds = 5 dancing Mossad." Sorry if this is off topic, but what on earth does that mean?
 
I Am The Scum said:
I wouldn't be surprised if Frank Luntz picked a not-so-random sample. People hire him when they want data to be distorted.

By the way, one of the top comments on that vid is "19 dancing Oswalds = 5 dancing Mossad." Sorry if this is off topic, but what on earth does that mean?
Click to expand...

It seems fishy to me too, especially after watching the first two videos of the debate. I don't see how anything he said at least in the first two videos was particularly impressive. He dodged a question about what to do about the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, saying he would listen to the opinions of experts and then decide. Maybe they like his idea about eliminating the IRS and having a national sales tax instead.
 
While I only saw a minute or two, I have to share my son's reaction. I guess he and his friends watched the debate for the comedy. He said it is really strange when Ron Paul is the most sane guy in the room.
 
I Am The Scum said:
I wouldn't be surprised if Frank Luntz picked a not-so-random sample. People hire him when they want data to be distorted.....
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A purposefully distorted audience makes sense. It was at least a target market. But I wouldn't put it past Luntz at all to use his focus group as the marketing gimmick rather than as a research tool. He is that devious.
 
johnny karate said:
Let's review:

About 20 conservative Republicans demonstrated themselves to not be racist.

You then use that to conclude most conservatives are not racist.

So how many conservatives espousing a racist point of view would it take to convince you most conservative are racist?

According to your own methodology, about 20.

Hmm... I wonder how difficult it would be to come up with 20 conservatives espousing a racist point of view...
Click to expand...

Statistics fail--whether you can generalize the results depends in part on how random the sampling is. If you've selected ones with a particular point of view, as in your hypothetical, you have no randomness at all.
 
gnome said:
Statistics fail--whether you can generalize the results depends in part on how random the sampling is. If you've selected ones with a particular point of view, as in your hypothetical, you have no randomness at all.
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Granted, but I wasn't specifically making a point about the statistics involved, but rather the absurdity in suggesting that 20 conservatives claiming to not be racist = conservatives are not racist.
 
My point is it's not quite so absurd if those 20 were randomly selected. It's not an ideal size sample for formal statistics, but it would cast doubt on the hypothesis.
 
johnny karate said:
Granted, but I wasn't specifically making a point about the statistics involved, but rather the absurdity in suggesting that 20 conservatives claiming to not be racist = conservatives are not racist.
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What is absurdly insulting is the constant accusation that conservatives are racists.

And bigots.

And sexists.

And homophobes.

And hateful.

And warmongers.

And greedy.

And etc, etc, etc...

Aren't liberals just wonderful?
 
JudeBrando said:
What is absurdly insulting is the constant accusation that conservatives are racists.
. . .
Aren't liberals just wonderful?
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It's equally insulting that conservatives won't accept a legally valid birth certificate as proof that the President is a natural-born citizen.

Aren't conservatives just wonderful?
 
JudeBrando said:
What is absurdly insulting is the constant accusation that conservatives are racists.

And bigots.

And sexists.

And homophobes.

And hateful.

And warmongers.

And greedy.

And etc, etc, etc...

Aren't liberals just wonderful?
Click to expand...

There are conservatives that are any number of those things. Hell, there are conservatives that are all of those things. Now I understand and agree that some liberals like to tar all conservatives unfairly with a lot of those, just as some conservatives tar all liberals with any number of things.

However, I'm personally getting very tired of any specific accusation being dismissed simply because someone has claimed it in an overly broad fashion in the past. I'm also very tired of seeing liberals and conservatives defend people from these accusations when the accusation is well supported.

'There goes conservatives, accusing liberals of accusing so the conservatives don't look racists.' Just as easy to go round and round.

Just because they're a conservative doesn't mean they aren't racist, hateful, homophobic, bigoted, etc.
 
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From my own observations of conservatives in the wild... there are occasional hints of all of that, but often rather ambient and hardly dominant characteristics. None of those properties seem universal or even majority. What I see is ideology--most conservatives I've met wouldn't think twice about supporting a black candidate, or a female candidate, if they had the right platform.

It may be true of individuals, but attacking the bigotry of conservatives in general is both exaggerated and misses the target. I worry more about how much the legitimacy of basic civics is under fire by the hard core ideologues of that side.
 
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