Fire Yogi

[Foolmewunz]

The sheer landslide of "tick" debunking here is staggering...

If feels like the ticks are running from this thread, like Sampson from scissors.

Why...?

No one's run from it. We've, one by one, stated what we can see. It's a video, and we really can't do a scientific study of it. But as has been pointed out...

> any carrying, he seems to have a large lump of grass between his hand and the flames and since fire burns "up", it's notable that his hands are below the actual flames

> several of the shots are foreshortened - e.g. the waving from behind(not in) the fire

> he works one part of his body, covered by his robe, and that's suspicious in itself


Additionally, please note that Fire Yogi sounds better than Lying Down Next To A Fire Yogi. Unlike fire walkers, he isn't actually in the flames, but next to them.

There's nothing, as paranormal proofs go, that really needs much more debunking.

 

[Pup]

That looks really, really dangerous. Exposure to all that smoke could damage one's lungs over time.

The way he puts out the fire so quickly on his beard kinda gives the whole thing away, but what could he do? You can't expect the poor fellow to risk getting burnt.

Besides what others have mentioned, he's also slightly upwind of the fire, which would blow a lot of the heat away.

Around 2:04 on the first video, he's careful to tilt his unprotected head away from the flame on his protected shoulder.

Also notice around 2:56 on the first video, how awkwardly he moves, keeping one arm, the covered arm that was nearest the fire, close to his body. He seems to check something up under his robe on that side too.

I recently had an injury that made me move like that, so I thought maybe the poor fellow had the same thing. But at 6:02, he can raise that arm just fine over his head. So it would seem the only reason he's keeping his arm down is because there's something he needs to maintain in position under his robe.

If I had to guess, I'd say the robe is wool, if it's not some newer fiber. I knew a reenactor who had a wool ankle-length skirt, and at the end of a day of working around a fire, she noticed a large chunk of the hem was burnt away. She'd been on fire and hadn't realized it. Wool is generally self-extinguishing, and although it was close to her skin, it was just far enough way, with a few petticoats between, that she never felt the heat.

 

[sadhatter]

Yes. Also, I guess we can train our bodies to take some extra punishment, which might seem impossible for normal persons. Below is one example. We tend to under estimate the amount of punishment the human body can take, once trained.

youtube.com/watch?v=hN6rO96eA0Q

Spot on, most people when they start the sport of knife throwing end up cutting their hands and fingers on a constant basis. After a bit, this just doesn't happen any more ( well, we all roll a one, but all of the cutable parts get calloused. Which is actually a problem if they get too thick, but i digress.)

Same thing with most martial arts, your average joe could break his hand throwing the same blow someone who has trained their body ( you can actually fairly easily find methods of how to do this online. )can do fine.

We are surprisingly resilient creatures.

 

[sadhatter]

Why would this be any different.

He's claiming the power of his mind is what allows him to do this.

If I give someone a sugar pill and tell them it's aspirin, it cures half of the recipients.

If I hypnotized someone with fire-resistance, would half of them resist flamage?

The placebo effect does not work on "real things" you can't placebo yourself to be more fire resistant, you can't placebo yourself into being more cut resistant, you can't placebo an arm back into place.

You may be able to ignore pain through it, but one can do the same thing by inducing pain before the event. The reason a lot of barroom brawlers like to either strike themselves quite hard before a fight or do some other damage.

So no, placebo cannot make on more fire resistant, the damage still happens.

 

[sadhatter]

That looks really, really dangerous. Exposure to all that smoke could damage one's lungs over time.

The way he puts out the fire so quickly on his beard kinda gives the whole thing away, but what could he do? You can't expect the poor fellow to risk getting burnt.

Besides what others have mentioned, he's also slightly upwind of the fire, which would blow a lot of the heat away.

Around 2:04 on the first video, he's careful to tilt his unprotected head away from the flame on his protected shoulder.

Also notice around 2:56 on the first video, how awkwardly he moves, keeping one arm, the covered arm that was nearest the fire, close to his body. He seems to check something up under his robe on that side too.

I recently had an injury that made me move like that, so I thought maybe the poor fellow had the same thing. But at 6:02, he can raise that arm just fine over his head. So it would seem the only reason he's keeping his arm down is because there's something he needs to maintain in position under his robe.

If I had to guess, I'd say the robe is wool, if it's not some newer fiber. I knew a reenactor who had a wool ankle-length skirt, and at the end of a day of working around a fire, she noticed a large chunk of the hem was burnt away. She'd been on fire and hadn't realized it. Wool is generally self-extinguishing, and although it was close to her skin, it was just far enough way, with a few petticoats between, that she never felt the heat.

If there is leather sown in anywhere that would also explain it, leather is actually pretty darn good at deflecting fire. I have an old high quality leather jacket that i use from time to time to test the limits of leather. And a high quality 4 barrel jet flame style lighter took a decent amount of time to actually get a hole in it.

 

[King of the Americas]

Spot on, most people when they start the sport of knife throwing end up cutting their hands and fingers on a constant basis. After a bit, this just doesn't happen any more ( well, we all roll a one, but all of the cutable parts get calloused. Which is actually a problem if they get too thick, but i digress.)

Same thing with most martial arts, your average joe could break his hand throwing the same blow someone who has trained their body ( you can actually fairly easily find methods of how to do this online. )can do fine.

We are surprisingly resilient creatures.

This argument would be one supporting the Yogi, no?

It 'seems' like you are arguing that one can indeed be trained to resist fire.

 

[Bikewer]

Over on the Mythbusters forum, they have a section for "viral videos" . I have pointed out many times that the video is totally under the control of the person making the video, not the people watching it.
That's what "controlled conditions" for testing paranormal claims is all about. The Mythbusters have cleverly debunked several of these, showing how they were done or likely done, usually with very simple means.
To look at a video some charlatan has put up himself and say "hmmm... must be something to this..." implies a certain... Naivete.

 

[King of the Americas]

Based only on this quote: the placebo effect is a "subjective perception of a therapeutic effect," not an actual therapeutic effect. The patient feels his or her condition has improved. That doesn't mean the condition has improved. I can't see this working with fire. You're either on fire or you're not on fire. No subjective perception is going to make you not on fire.

I know the quote came from my link, but I don't think it fully appreciates the actual reality of the Placebo Effect.

I can, and will upon request, provide you scientific studies that proves that 'sometimes' the sheer power of belief in a sugar pill DOES offer real cures.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=parkinsons-patients-feel

http://www.NaturalNews.com/001125_Western_medicine_mind-body.html

 

[King of the Americas]

... The Mythbusters have cleverly debunked several of these, showing how they were done or likely done, usually with very simple means...

I don't think showing how something 'might' have been accomplished is "debunking" anything.

For something to be debunked, it has to be false, a sham, or an exaggerated claim, no?

If I show you my picture of a ufo, and you post a picture of a blimp that looks similar to the ufo, the picture wasn't debunked...even if a skeptic claims it has been.

Saying that something was 'likely' done in this manner, isn't 'debunking' either.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Again, I perform with fire all the time. This video is extremely unimpressive as performance art.

To some of the points you've been discussing: probably the hardest thing in learning fire-eating was overcoming a strong instinct not to get close to flames (especially the face).

I have done some bolder things--I used to hold a large torch in my mouth and invariably burn the corners of my mouth and lips just about every time I did it. I find that when I've got the "rush" of performing in front of an audience, I don't really feel pain (right at the moment, but a burn is a burn, and I will feel them later). In some of the regular fire eating I do, if I overdo it, and dry out the tissue, I tend to get blisters especially on the roof of my mouth. (In fact, I also get blisters there if I eat very hot pizza.)

I think it's something like endorphins. Similarly, when I do a long-distance run and get a minor injury, I often don't feel the pain until later.

The placebo effect is usually considered a measurement error and really doesn't apply, IMO, outside of experimental settings. Otherwise, it's sloppy use of language. If you're talking about some possible reduction in the perception of pain, that's really something else. Calling it "the placebo effect" isn't technically accurate and doesn't shed any light on anything anyway. If I wanted to discuss it, in this context, I'd hypothesize a brain-endorphin effect.

But what I saw in the video doesn't even require anything like that. As I said, it wasn't at all impressive. For most of my fire stuff, I use kevlar wicks soaked in gasoline (coleman camp fuel). It burns pretty hot, and you can tell because at the base of each flame the fire burns blue. The orange and yellow parts of the flame extend very far from that point. In the video, I didn't see anything that looked like very hot flame.

Also, as mentioned, the grass that's burning is an extremely poor conductor of heat. Clothing provides more insulation, and then there's all the stuff where he's trying to make it look like's he's more in and on the fire than he really is.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I don't think showing how something 'might' have been accomplished is "debunking" anything.

For something to be debunked, it has to be false, a sham, or an exaggerated claim, no?

If I show you my picture of a ufo, and you post a picture of a blimp that looks similar to the ufo, the picture wasn't debunked...even if a skeptic claims it has been.

Saying that something was 'likely' done in this manner, isn't 'debunking' either.

Fair enough. I've often said that for a skeptic to dismiss a claim, debunking isn't necessary. If you want to believe an extraordinary claim, the burden is to provide evidence to support that claim. In the absence of that evidence, it is reasonable to provisionally reject the claim.

When I see David Copperfield vanish a large object, I don't have to figure out or show how he did it to know that he didn't actually vanish the object.

We had a long discussion on this point some time ago when someone said that we need to think of all the possible "trap doors". For example, in the context of a MDC demonstration, we had to anticipate all the possible ways of cheating to design a good protocol. (In fact, that's not exactly true.) My point was that skepticism isn't the same as a MDC. A skeptic evaluates all the evidence and then provisionally accepts or rejects the claim.

If the claim is that this guy is doing something supernatural or paranormal, I would confidently reject that claim because there isn't evidence to support it. (And evidence includes not only this video, but everything I know about fire, perception of heat, videography, trickery and illusion, etc.)

If the claim is that the guy is executing a hoax, I would have to provisionally reject that claim as well, because I don't know enough about the circumstances of the fire performance. Even though he's called a "Yogi" in this thread, maybe what he was doing was just an amateurish act, where it was made clear that this is performance art of some sort and not held out to be something supernatural. (If there was strong evidence that he made that claim and was holding himself out as doing something supernatural, then I would provisionally accept the claim that he is executing a hoax.)

 

[King of the Americas]

Again, I perform with fire all the time. This video is extremely unimpressive as performance art.

To some of the points you've been discussing: probably the hardest thing in learning fire-eating was overcoming a strong instinct not to get close to flames (especially the face).

I have done some bolder things--I used to hold a large torch in my mouth and invariably burn the corners of my mouth and lips just about every time I did it. I find that when I've got the "rush" of performing in front of an audience, I don't really feel pain (right at the moment, but a burn is a burn, and I will feel them later). In some of the regular fire eating I do, if I overdo it, and dry out the tissue, I tend to get blisters especially on the roof of my mouth. (In fact, I also get blisters there if I eat very hot pizza.)

I think it's something like endorphins. Similarly, when I do a long-distance run and get a minor injury, I often don't feel the pain until later.

The placebo effect is usually considered a measurement error and really doesn't apply, IMO, outside of experimental settings. Otherwise, it's sloppy use of language. If you're talking about some possible reduction in the perception of pain, that's really something else. Calling it "the placebo effect" isn't technically accurate and doesn't shed any light on anything anyway. If I wanted to discuss it, in this context, I'd hypothesize a brain-endorphin effect.

But what I saw in the video doesn't even require anything like that. As I said, it wasn't at all impressive. For most of my fire stuff, I use kevlar wicks soaked in gasoline (coleman camp fuel). It burns pretty hot, and you can tell because at the base of each flame the fire burns blue. The orange and yellow parts of the flame extend very far from that point. In the video, I didn't see anything that looked like very hot flame.

Also, as mentioned, the grass that's burning is an extremely poor conductor of heat. Clothing provides more insulation, and then there's all the stuff where he's trying to make it look like's he's more in and on the fire than he really is.

Thank you for your retort.

Good stuff.

---

I would LOVE to see what a thermostat positioned in between his robes and skin revealed.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

This argument would be one supporting the Yogi, no?

It 'seems' like you are arguing that one can indeed be trained to resist fire.

I used to make the comment in my act that the big trick is that scar tissue is tougher and less ennervated than the original.

But I don't think that's what you're trying to say.

Again, with fire eating, a lot of it is technique. So you can "train" in that sense (which is about developing a skill--just as playing the piano--and not about developing some new physical ability). There is also a little bit of conditioning involved. As I mentioned, one of the biggest dangers with fire eating is if the tissues of the mouth dry out, so I've more or less conditioned myself to salivate a bit more when I fire eat. That wouldn't apply to what I saw in the videos and it wouldn't be necessary either.

I suspect with what he did, any "training" would be akin to how a magician "trains" at a trick or in creating an illusion. And the thing I mentioned earlier--overcoming a basic instinct not to let fire get really close to you (especially the face).

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I would LOVE to see what a thermostat positioned in between his robes and skin revealed.

You mean a thermometer, don't you?

A thermostat incorporates a thermometer but it is usually a feedback switch to operate something that heats or cools (i.e. regulates temperature).

 

[King of the Americas]

You mean a thermometer, don't you?

A thermostat incorporates a thermometer but it is usually a feedback switch to operate something that heats or cools (i.e. regulates temperature).

Right, thanks for the correction.

 

[King of the Americas]

...

I suspect with what he did, any "training" would be akin to how a magician "trains" at a trick or in creating an illusion. And the thing I mentioned earlier--overcoming a basic instinct not to let fire get really close to you (especially the face).

My grandmother and I have asbestos fingers, at least that what my wife says. I wash our dishes by hand, and rinse with water as hot as my water heater will make it. I flip tortillas with my fingers, and I often move baked potatoes with my bare hand. Now granted, I am not claiming anything other than I think I am just used to a little more heat than she is accustom to.

Stan Lee hosts or produces a show that features people who have 'super-human' powers. One guy featured therein is capable of sitting it a sauna for much longer than 'normal' people...but he didn't start out that way.

My rinsing dishes wasn't always with the hottest water and I once used implements to do all my turning. I have learned, or trained myself to avoid getting burned, and can 'take' more heat than some others.

That said, I am certainly capable of being burned if I don't exercise due caution.

I doubt seriously that someone not used to working as a fire eater, who, even if they used perfect technique, wouldn't get burned doing the same thing you are capable of.

The human body, I find, CAN be trained.

 

[welshdean]

My grandmother and I have asbestos fingers, at least that what my wife says. I wash our dishes by hand, and rinse with water as hot as my water heater will make it. I flip tortillas with my fingers, and I often move baked potatoes with my bare hand. Now granted, I am not claiming anything other than I think I am just used to a little more heat than she is accustom to.

Stan Lee hosts or produces a show that features people who have 'super-human' powers. One guy featured therein is capable of sitting it a sauna for much longer than 'normal' people...but he didn't start out that way.

My rinsing dishes wasn't always with the hottest water and I once used implements to do all my turning. I have learned, or trained myself to avoid getting burned, and can 'take' more heat than some others.

That said, I am certainly capable of being burned if I don't exercise due caution.

I doubt seriously that someone not used to working as a fire eater, who, even if they used perfect technique, wouldn't get burned doing the same thing you are capable of.

The human body, I find, CAN be trained.

I too have 'asbestos fingers' and an 'asbestos mouth'. During cooking a meal I will, as you do, move very hot things from the oven/hob to a worksurface. It impresses my missus no end. My friend however is a trained chef and his 'asbestosisity' is extremely impressive, he can pick pasta from a boiling pan, he can move metal baking tins with bare fingers etc., so I also agree that the body can be 'trained.

In my experience of fire treating wood that will resist flames for a minimum of an hour (1hr fire-rating), neccessary in the early/mid '90s to allow timber access equipment in the London Underground system, a simple phenolic treatment would suffice. Looking at the resistance and burn pattern of the fabric in the 3rd video, I suspect that the fabric has been treated with some form of phenolic liquid and allowed to dry offering
a far longer exposure time before ignition. The heat on the other hand would still be, well, hot!

 

[King of the Americas]

This guy has been doing this ritual for years, right?

His beard doesn't look quite as trained to deal with the flamage, however.

There's is little doubt in MY head, that if 'I' tried the same thing, I'd roast my toasties.

 

[sadhatter]

This argument would be one supporting the Yogi, no?

It 'seems' like you are arguing that one can indeed be trained to resist fire.

But not in a mystical way. I doubt this guy is saying " I use tricks and callouses in order to do this. " I am no more supporting him my explaining the mundane ways he could do this than i am supporting sylvia browne when i explain cold reading.

Reminds me of the logic i hear when i debunk dim mok to people and they say. But you can kill someone by punching them in the throat.

 

[King of the Americas]

But not in a mystical way. I doubt this guy is saying " I use tricks and callouses in order to do this. " I am no more supporting him my explaining the mundane ways he could do this than i am supporting sylvia browne when i explain cold reading.

Reminds me of the logic i hear when i debunk dim mok to people and they say. But you can kill someone by punching them in the throat.

I don't know why you'd invoke Sylvia and what this man is capable of doing...

I'll bet this guy IS saying that he is nothing special but practiced and self-reliant.