Fire Rumsfeld!!!!!!!

[Silicon]

WTF? I guess they should have issued them weapons first ?

False dilemma.



If you think the only option is using deadly force, and so you think it must be justified by arming them, you need to know a lot more about law enforcement.

There is an entire range of techniques to pacify rioting prisoners. "Calm down or you don't get any food" works wonders.

We don't shoot rioting American convicts unless they constute a deadly danger.


An unarmed prisoner trying to escape. You just shoot them?

You don't tackle them? You don't shout "freeze"? You don't use a nightstick? You don't use a net? You don't use a taser?

You kill them in violation of international standards? Great.

Why do you apologize for these abuses?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

False dilemma.



If you think the only option is using deadly force, and so you think it must be justified by arming them, you need to know a lot more about law enforcement.

There is an entire range of techniques to pacify rioting prisoners. "Calm down or you don't get any food" works wonders.

We don't shoot rioting American convicts unless they constute a deadly danger.


An unarmed prisoner trying to escape. You just shoot them?

You don't tackle them? You don't shout "freeze"? You don't use a nightstick? You don't use a net? You don't use a taser?

You kill them in violation of international standards? Great.

Why do you apologize for these abuses?

I'll have to defer to your obvious expertise in these matters..

Exactly what is your experience and backgroud in prisons, POW camps, detention centers & etc ?

 

[Silicon]

I'll have to defer to your obvious expertise in these matters..

Exactly what is your experience and backgroud in prisons, POW camps, detention centers & etc ?

Hey, I've seen The Great Escape. ;-)


(Relatives are former MP's and current Corrections Officers).

 

[Frank Newgent]

Do you know that "nobody has any confidence" in Rumsfeld?

Yup. I read it in the Army Times

 

[VicDaring]

Something I wrote in another forum (cleaned up for JREF):

I'm sitting here watching Faux News (I know, my first mistake) and Tony Snow is sitting in for O'Lie-lly.

The whole show is on and on and on and on about how this really isn't that big of a deal and most Americans don't see it as a big deal, and only hysterical liberals are ranting about it, and it's the press that's blowing it out of proportion.

Listen a**h0les!!!!!! This situation...those pictures, are a friggin' distaster of unrealized proportions. Experts are saying it could take generations (GENERATIONS!) to undo the damage in the Arab/Muslim world. It has damaged, maybe beyond repair, our ability to see any stability in Iraq as a result og our presence.

Generations of hate and instability in an already volatile area. You know what that equals. My life, the lives of my friends and loved ones, your life, every American's life, and the lives of anyone in the vicinity of an American is in danger far, far onto the horizon.

That's not hysterical exaggeration. That's the way it is. Enjoy the next 20 or 40 years, looking over your shoulder.

Now, let's ask a very important question: Would this have happened if the Iraq war had been a true international effort? Well, logically and rationally, we don't and can't know the answer to that one. Too many variables. But does it seem likely to anyone that, with increased UN, or even NATO, presence, there might have been more oversight on situations like these. Maybe a bunch of 20-something gung-ho soldiers, all riled up to go get some vengeance for 911 might not have been left to their own devices to beat and rape and humiliate prisoners of war.

Thanks George W. Thanks a freakin' bunch.


EDITED to add some backup for the "generations" comment:
Time Magazine

 

[dsm]

And, of course, the big question is:

What do we, as Americans, do now??

 

[VicDaring]

And, of course, the big question is:

What do we, as Americans, do now??

Regime change in November. It ain't much, but it's all we got.

 

[Ladewig]

Ladewig
I was referring to (A) the 25 deaths under investigation, two of which have already been classified as murder by the U.S. military justice system and (B) the "numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees." (quote from Major General Antonio Taguba in the Abu Ghraib report)

Diogenes
And why would you think that someone found guilty of murder , under U.S. or millitary law, would only be faced with resignation from the millitary?

I understand that the rank and file soldiers will be punished in some manner. My fear was that the middle- and high-ranking officers might be directly responsible and would get away with a punishment that was lighter than it should be.

I have calmed down and while I am still vexed at the commentaries of Rush and his ilk, I am not ready to call for resignations or jail time for people not in the photos. I want to see how the current investigation goes and what it uncovers before I take sides on the Rumsfeld issue.

I still have strong emotions about how harmful these photos will be to future international relations.

 

[TillEulenspiegel]

Can some of You people even hear yourselves?

Rationalization, equivocation . mis-direction ........ any tissue of lies and justification that you can grasp to make the crimes committed in Iraq acceptable. You freekin hypocrites. Janet fer Christ sakes Reno as some sort of safety valve to establish parody?? She was in office a few weeks and deffered judjment to the local and field operatives on the ground. Rummy by contrast has been the architect of the second gulf war, after being involved in the 1st gulf war

You people who have half a brain must re-examining your outlook. Idiots like American ( the mere name is an insult) and the cigarsomking dog which seems to be an appros po avatar for it's poster are predictable as regurgitation machines of all things Bush and Rush. The others that respond who are seemingly more educated remind me of the mad psychiatrist karaditch and his irrational rage , or worse. ( I will not invoke any mention of the Nazi genocide as all the Mideast monomaniacs will suddenly appear) I am stunned not because these sentiments appear, but that the basis for their expression by minds who should know better appear to be reasonable by those posters

Reminds me of a song by Frank Zappa back on the first mothers album about the cause and outcome of the watts riots in '65," You know people I'm not black . but theres a lotta times I wish I could say I'm not white.".
Sometimes I'm not sure we can make it, sometimes I think we shouldn't

 

[RandFan]

Can some of You people even hear yourselves?

Rationalization, equivocation . mis-direction ........ any tissue of lies and justification that you can grasp to make the crimes committed in Iraq acceptable. You freekin hypocrites. Janet fer Christ sakes Reno as some sort of safety valve to establish parody?? She was in office a few weeks and deffered judjment to the local and field operatives on the ground. Rummy by contrast has been the architect of the second gulf war, after being involved in the 1st gulf war

Since I brought up Janet Reno then I guess that I am one of the "freekin hypocrites". Aren't you trying to excuse Janet when she herself took responsibility? Are you saying that she took no active role? Are you saying she shouldn't have taken responsibility or a role?

You people who have half a brain must re-examining your outlook. Idiots like American ( the mere name is an insult) and the cigarsomking dog which seems to be an appros po avatar for it's poster are predictable as regurgitation machines of all things Bush and Rush.

And I have denounced American. Face it, those of us on the right have American and those on the left have Ion who regurgitates all things Franken and Moore.

The others that respond who are seemingly more educated remind me of the mad psychiatrist karaditch and his irrational rage , or worse. ( I will not invoke any mention of the Nazi genocide as all the Mideast monomaniacs will suddenly appear) I am stunned not because these sentiments appear, but that the basis for their expression by minds who should know better appear to be reasonable by those posters

Spare us your moral outrage. Discussion is appropriate and good to get to the truth. There are those of us on the left and right who don't just spout propaganda but who truly want to know the truth. I have asked questions in trying to find out as much as I can about this issue.

You obviously don't need any information. You know Rumsfeld is guilty and there is obviously no need for an investigation and obviously no need for someone like myself to ask questions or make arguments. How silly of me to assume that there was any reason to be skeptical of the prevailing wisdom that Rumsfeld is guilty. How silly of me to ask questions since the facts are obvious. How silly of me that I don't keep my mouth shut because I might upset people. Why do we even have a political forum? If the left is correct and the right is wrong then can't we just pick someone like you to tell us all what is correct and what isn't?

Reminds me of a song by Frank Zappa back on the first mothers album about the cause and outcome of the watts riots in '65," You know people I'm not black . but theres a lotta times I wish I could say I'm not white.".
Sometimes I'm not sure we can make it, sometimes I think we shouldn't

Rhetoric, it contributes nothing to the issue. But I noted it. I can't begin to imagine what value it could have but thank you for it anyway.

 

[RandFan]

Rationalization, equivocation . mis-direction ........ any tissue of lies and justification that you can grasp to make the crimes committed in Iraq acceptable. You freekin hypocrites. Janet fer Christ sakes Reno as some sort of safety valve to establish parody?? She was in office a few weeks and deffered judjment to the local and field operatives on the ground. Rummy by contrast has been the architect of the second gulf war, after being involved in the 1st gulf war

And by the way,

RandFan

And no, I'm not trying to justify what Rumsfeld did via Reno. If what he did was wrong then it is wrong. I'm just saying I know how you feel.

 

[TillEulenspiegel]

Since I brought up Janet Reno then I guess that I am one of the "freekin hypocrites". Aren't you trying to excuse Janet when she herself took responsibility? Are you saying that she took no active role? Are you saying she shouldn't have taken responsibility or a role?

I didn't read the whole thread , but that would logically demonstrate my estimation of you.
No I wasn't saying that , what I AM saying is that the two cases hold no equivalency except that the people who are involved are appointed by and serve at the pleasure of the President.

And I have denounced American. Face it, those of us on the right have American and those on the left have Ion who regurgitates all things Franken and Moore.


Well the first time we spoke , you painted yourself as a centrist/Libertarian and I have been hard put to reconcile your stated outlook with your constant position as a right wing apologist that is evident in Your posts. So at least I can now match the picture with the words. There are people on the left that do exactly that. I , knowing that moore and franken and limbaug are entertainers do not seek there outlook as a foundation for my political observations or understanding.

Spare us your moral outrage. Discussion is appropriate and good to get to the truth. There are those of us on the left and right who don't just spout propaganda but who truly want to know the truth. I have asked questions in trying to find out as much as I can about this issue.


The only moral outrage I have is at the fact that there are American men and women dieing in a sand filled cesspool in a conflict who's genisis is dubious at best and is rapidly descending into a conflagration which will present no good outcome for all involved. The majority of speech in this thread is not discussion it is the typical gainsaying and tit-for-tat counterpoint. we must expect from the armies of the self-convinced on all sides of the political spectrum. Your exclamation of studious pursuit of the truth as a neutral observer is 180 degrees out of phase with the truth.You do not ask questions and try to discern the actual case , but rather cherry pick and data mine factoids that support your editorial position and then ask quite innocently ( using your best Socratic feint ) "Is this not the case?". The answers that are most evident in the L/R wing, Israel/Palestinian tracts are a search for justification by prior example of similar behavior by the opponents side. That is not intellectual discourse it is the plaintive whine of a 7 yr old to mommy that " he did it first" therefor absolving the guilty party any culpability in the case at hand. You don't want to know the truth if it diverges from you perceptions.

You obviously don't need any information. You know Rumsfeld is guilty and there is obviously no need for an investigation and obviously no need for someone like myself to ask questions or make arguments. How silly of me to assume that there was any reason to be skeptical of the prevailing wisdom that Rumsfeld is guilty. How silly of me to ask questions since the facts are obvious. How silly of me that I don't keep my mouth shut because I might upset people. Why do we even have a political forum? If the left is correct and the right is wrong then can't we just pick someone like you to tell us all what is correct and what isn't?

Now this is obviously on the wrong forum. It should be on the magic forum as I have stated no position. I chastised certain idiots in their rhetorical approach. I challenge you to find any statement in my post that even suggests a finite position.Guilty? Guilty of what? What facts? You are not skeptical, by the very nature of your "argument",YOU seem to have a demonstrable outlook you construct a web of disparate facts and apply them in a crazyquilt pattern to absolve the subject at hand to be either innocent or just engaging in behavior that has a history. Someone like me? Implying what? That I am a liberal? That I receive geopolitical education from moore ( or worse) and his like? You need to substantiate what appears to be a claim of my "position"

Rhetoric, it contributes nothing to the issue. But I noted it. I can't begin to imagine what value it could have but thank you for it anyway.

Rhetoric is the coin of your realm sir, don't brush it aside.So now we have two post that verge on Ad Hom and have not moved the "understanding" of the thread topic one bit.............productive no?

edit : embedding

 

[Dorian Gray]

If the government, as the ACLU claims, improperly siezed his medical records then he has a valid right to complain.

But no, RandFan. Seizing his medical records is just a frat prank! If Rumsfeld, and the men who serve under him, improperly abused, tortured, mistreated or killed prisoners in Iraq, Afghanistan or Gitmo, Bush, the House and the Senate have a valid right to complain and investigate, and he has a valid right to be unemployed.
Randfan:

Since I brought up Janet Reno then I guess that I am one of the "freekin hypocrites". Aren't you trying to excuse Janet when she herself took responsibility? Are you saying that she took no active role? Are you saying she shouldn't have taken responsibility or a role?

People need to stop comparing Rumsfeld and the others to everyone else. It doesn't matter what Reno did before - she's not in office now, and not only that, she wasn't the Sec. of Defense. Rumsfeld is in charge, this crap happened WHILE he was in charge, and he needs to either be fired or step down, or tell Bush and congress RIGHT NOW who precisely is responsible and force THEM to step down. RandFan, by bringing up Reno, you are not "ask[ing] questions in trying to find out as much as I can about this issue". What you are doing is drawing irrelevant comparisons seemingly in order to mitigate Rumsfeld's responsibility.

I'll have to defer to your obvious expertise in these matters..

Exactly what is your experience and backgroud in prisons, POW camps, detention centers & etc ?

Great tactic. When your ignorance is exposed, try your best to make sure it's a HUGE ignorance.

 

[RandFan]

But no, RandFan. Seizing his medical records is just a frat prank! If Rumsfeld, and the men who serve under him, improperly abused, tortured, mistreated or killed prisoners in Iraq, Afghanistan or Gitmo, Bush, the House and the Senate have a valid right to complain and investigate, and he has a valid right to be unemployed.

I'm sorry but I honestly don't understand. Could you clarify?

Randfan: People need to stop comparing Rumsfeld and the others to everyone else. It doesn't matter what Reno did before - she's not in office now, and not only that, she wasn't the Sec. of Defense.

I fail to see the relevance. She was in charge of the events at Waco, she even said so. And I have said quite plainly that if Rumsfeld has done wrong that he needs to face any responsibility.

Is your position so week that you can't discuss or consider examples or issues beyond this specific issue?

Rumsfeld is in charge, this crap happened WHILE he was in charge, and he needs to either be fired or step down, or tell Bush and congress RIGHT NOW who precisely is responsible and force THEM to step down.

While I have seen some good argument towards this direction I am not certain that this is really the case. I think Liebermans argument is valid. In any event I have not made up my mind. Though it seems that there are those who want to bully me into a decision or cast aspersions toward me just because I am asking questions. Why not deal with the questions as opposed to rhetoric and demands?

RandFan, by bringing up Reno, you are not "ask[ing] questions in trying to find out as much as I can about this issue". What you are doing is drawing irrelevant comparisons seemingly in order to mitigate Rumsfeld's responsibility.

This is your opinion. I'm sorry you won't take me at my word. It seems that you are unwilling to look at the issue in an objective light. Your emotions are just too raw right now.

 

[RandFan]

I didn't read the whole thread , but that would logically demonstrate my estimation of you.

No I wasn't saying that , what I AM saying is that the two cases hold no equivalency except that the people who are involved are appointed by and serve at the pleasure of the President.

But people came to Reno's defense and said that she should not be fired simply because she headed the agency.

Is that a valid argument?

Well the first time we spoke , you painted yourself as a centrist/Libertarian and I have been hard put to reconcile your stated outlook with your constant position as a right wing apologist that is evident in Your posts. So at least I can now match the picture with the words. There are people on the left that do exactly that. I , knowing that moore and franken and limbaug are entertainers do not seek there outlook as a foundation for my political observations or understanding.

I don't really know what I am. I support a woman's right to choose, I'm for ending the drug war, I'm for legalizing prostitution. I was willing to defend Clinton during his tenure against conspiracy theory and was vocally against the investigations that dogged him. I supported many of his intitaves though I never voted for him. I have critisiced Bush on many ocassions on this forum.

If this makes me a right wing appologist then so be it.

Your exclamation of studious pursuit of the truth as a neutral observer is 180 degrees out of phase with the truth.

I have never claimed to be neutral observer.

You do not ask questions and try to discern the actual case.

Demonstrably false. I am ready and willing to denounce Rumsfeld. My mind is not made up. I don't know the whole truth. Do you know the whole truth?

...but rather cherry pick and data mine factoids that support your editorial position...

Odd, I was going to say the same about you.

...and then ask quite innocently ( using your best Socratic feint ) "Is this not the case?".

I'm sorry you choose to assume the worst about me. It is not the case. Is it possible to change your mind or am I a foregone conclusion?

That is not intellectual discourse it is the plaintive whine of a 7 yr old to mommy that " he did it first" therefor absolving the guilty party any culpability in the case at hand. You don't want to know the truth if it diverges from you perceptions.

I never made any such argument. This is a straw man. I want to know if attitudes are consistent or just convenient. Sorry if that bothers you so much.

Now this is obviously on the wrong forum. It should be on the magic forum as I have stated no position. I chastised certain idiots in their rhetorical approach.

Then why only attack the right. I'm sorry but I find this difficult to accept.

Thanks for the response.

 

[corplinx]

Rumsfeld is in charge, this crap happened WHILE he was in charge, and he needs to either be fired or step down, or tell Bush and congress RIGHT NOW who precisely is responsible and force THEM to step down.

What we need are harsh shills like you to take a chill pill. You don't help rational and thoughtful discussion of the issue by acting like a grandstanding windbag. If I wanted to hear this, I'd listen to the a-holes in the congress.

 

[dsm]

But people came to Reno's defense and said that she should not be fired simply because she headed the agency.

Is that a valid argument?

Possibly. Why do you think it should apply to Rumsfeld? Or Bush for that matter?

 

[Silicon]

What we need are harsh shills like you to take a chill pill.

What a missed opportunity.


You should have written:

What we need are shrill shills to take a chill pill.



That would fill the bill, Phil.

 

[RandFan]

Possibly. Why do you think it should apply to Rumsfeld? Or Bush for that matter?

It seems to me that Rumsfeld should be fired if he specifically directed anyone to break the law, covered up the abuse or refused to investigate.

It has been proven that the abuse was reported and an investigation was launched.

US probes abuse of Iraqi prisoners Saturday, January 17, 2004. 11:50am (AEDT)

The US military has opened an investigation into "serious reports" of abuse of prisoners by US troops at a coalition detention facility in Iraq.

Larry DiRita, special assistant to US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, says the abuses were reported within military channels and involved incidents on more than one day at a detention facility in Baghdad.

"These are serious, serious reports. They are taken seriously - commanders have indicated that they take them seriously, and intend to pursue them," he said.

He says the reports came to light "very recently" and have been referred to the Army's Criminal Investigations Division for investigation.

The military withheld details of the alleged abuse on grounds that disclosure could hinder the investigation.

"An investigation has been initiated into reported incidents of detainee abuse at a coalition forces detention facility," the US Central Command said in a statement.

A senior defence official, who asked not to be identified, said the alleged abuses were of such a serious nature "that it would be criminal activity if true".

Since it was not covered up. Since action was taken to solve the problem then why should Rumsfeld step down? A number of people have said that since he is in charge he must take responsibility, ok, would the same argument apply to Reno? Why? Why not?

 

[TillEulenspiegel]

But people came to Reno's defense and said that she should not be fired simply because she headed the agency.

Is that a valid argument?

Again Reno's case has no equivalency to the current debacle Mr. Rumsfeld is in.

I don't really know what I am. I support a woman's right to choose, I'm for ending the drug war, I'm for legalizing prostitution. I was willing to defend Clinton during his tenure against conspiracy theory and was vocally against the investigations that dogged him. I supported many of his intitaves though I never voted for him. I have critisiced Bush on many ocassions on this forum..

Yup and some of my best friends are black.

If this makes me a right wing appologist then so be it.

So it is written , let it be done.



I have never claimed to be neutral observer.

That sir is an outright lie. You proclaim you allegiance to the truth . but repeatedly espouse less then truthful oaths driven by political position. EX." I have asked questions in trying to find out as much as I can about this issue". Which means a neutral investigation, which if examined in toto reveals a reality starkly different of your espoused position ( ..hmm again, many other posts where you do the same , but no I will not take the time to weed them out . All here realize the reality of your outlook. ) .


Demonstrably false. I am ready and willing to denounce Rumsfeld. My mind is not made up. I don't know the whole truth. Do you know the whole truth?
Odd, I was going to say the same about you.

I denounced no-one, I have not stated a position, my mind is not made up , but I don't argue for the dismissal of the call for Rummy's office , whereas you denounce the call as political rhetoric You are shadowboxing. Do not put words in my text.

Odd, I was going to say the same about you., but no I don't know the "truth " , however You have chosen to assign me a position based on your own perceptions which is questionable as no-one knows the facts and I have not stated a position. Therefore I must assume that your own position is based on conjecture in relation to both Mr.Rumsfeld and myself.

I'm sorry you choose to assume the worst about me. It is not the case. Is it possible to change your mind or am I a foregone conclusion?

A man is judged by his deeds.. but as this medium does not lend itself to close examination , we must rely on the persons portrayal of themselves as the determination of their character.

I never made any such argument. This is a straw man. I want to know if attitudes are consistent or just convenient. Sorry if that bothers you so much.
Ahh but in fact You did , You tried to use the ole he did it first argument as an excuse for Rumsfeld's behavior and then backed off as to appear evenhanded.

Then why only attack the right. I'm sorry but I find this difficult to accept.

Hmm again a conjuration , where did I attack the right ?