Finland celebrates 100 years independence today

[ddt]

You have fallen into the common trap of assuming language is the same as ethnicity.

They are quite separate, although linked because of geography.

No, language is a major part of ethnicity.

Besides that, as 52ka the inhabitants didn't speak Finnish they wouldn't have called the place Finland, nor would any foreigners have done so, so it's nonsense to say how Finland looked 52ka.

And besides that, 52ka there was no notion of states.

 

[ddt]

'Who took part in WWII'.

You didn't mention that. Even then it's a fail.

Valletta (Malta) and Nicosia (Cyprus).

Bucharest (Romania) and Sofia (Bulgaria). Both countries switched sides and declared war on Nazi Germany a week before the Red Army entered their capital. When it's allied forces it's not an occupation.

Zagreb (Croatia). German troops entered Zagreb the same day the NDH was proclaimed, and in 1945, the city was liberated by Yugoslav partisans.

 

[ddt]

Finland was never part of the Axis, but yeah, they 'owed' Germany for the Jaakari (Jaegar) military training that saw off the Bolsheviks in 1917,

It's Jäger, or Jaeger if you can't find the umlaut on your keyboard. A very odd spelling mistake for someone who claims to know German.

The Finns wanted back Karelia and they never crossed the old Mannerheim line.

We've gone over this before and (a) the Mannerheim line was not the pre-1939 border but a defensive line within pre-1939 Finland, and (b) the Finnish army did cross the old border and conducted navy operations on Lake Ladoga together with the German navy.

They had their own army and never collaborated with the Germans, apart from one battalion, together with another 'Nordic' panzer battalion made up of an assortment of Norwegians, Estonians [who feared and loathed the Russians], Swedes and a sundry motley crew of fascist mercenaries from all over Europe].

No Finn with any self-respect EVER. saluted a German officer.

I wonder how that went in Operation Arctic Fox, where a joint German-Finnish army tried to invade the Soviet Union and cut off the Murmansk railroad.

ETA: You do know, most of the Nazi war criminals who fled to South America, did so via Sweden?

[ citation required ]

Maybe you could edit this wiki article with your profound knowledge of Nazi escape routes? Sweden isn't even mentioned once there.

Better to join the war criminals. <snip>

Vixen has been whitewashing Finnish history before.

 

[Craig B]

We've gone over this before and (a) the Mannerheim line was not the pre-1939 border but a defensive line within pre-1939 Finland, and (b) the Finnish army did cross the old border and conducted navy operations on Lake Ladoga together with the German navy.


I wonder how that went in Operation Arctic Fox, where a joint German-Finnish army tried to invade the Soviet Union and cut off the Murmansk railroad.

The following three Finnish service personnel, who were recommended for German decorations for their activities in joint operations, are noteworthy

... offered the Iron Cross for their wartime service: Leo Skurnik, Salomon Klass, and Dina Poljakoff. Major Leo Skurnik, a district medical officer in the Finnish Army, organized an evacuation of a German field hospital when it came under Soviet shelling. More than 600 patients, including SS soldiers, were evacuated. Captain Salomon Klass, also of the Finnish Army, who had lost an eye in the Winter War, led a Finnish unit that rescued a German company that had been surrounded by the Soviets. Dina Poljakoff, a member of Lotta Svärd, the Finnish women's auxiliary service, was a nursing assistant who helped tend to German wounded, and came to be greatly admired by her patients.​

They are noteworthy because they were Jews. None of them accepted the German medals.

 

[Vixen]

Better to join the war criminals.

Then we have quaint details like the Einsatzkommando Finland, of course, participating in the "anti-Partisan" (Jew-killing) operations of Nazi Germany in the northern USSR, and "selecting" people to be "handed over" to the Germans for "special treatment" (or whatever euphemism they used). But you're right, the finnish officers in EK Finland were just proud patriots, not at all collaborators with the Germans

I have that book, and used it for my own research. Yes, there was an Einsatzkommando unit set up in Salla, and of course, there were fascists, although not to the extent of a 'Quisling government' as we saw in Norway. These fascists managed to send nine Finnish Jews to European concentration camps and that is a blot on Finland's history.

However, Sweden's record is poor. Although at the beginning of WW2 it took in boatloads of Jewish refuges desperate to escape, it soon turned many boats away (as did Finland).

Yes, Finland were 'Brothers in Arms' as it were (as per the title of the book you reference) in that they approached the Russian border together with the Germans. However, the Germans were part of the Operation Barbarossa and the Finns wanted back their Karelian borders.

The Finnish army was quite separate ('the Karelian army') apart from one division (VI) which was under joint German command. Bear in mind, Finland was never an Axis member, it was not fascist in its aims, as Germany was. The attack on Russia by Hitler on three fronts, the north (Leningrad) the Don and Stalingrad (the South) was drawn up in top secrecy and carried out at lightning speed, before the Russians had a chance to react effectively.

Yes, some of the Finnish generals had been friends pre-War with the German generals. Pre-1939 no-one knew about the plans for a Holocaust or Hitler's crazy plan to exterminate the Slavs (the Russians and East Europeans) in order to gain lebensraum, so hindsight is a fine thing. At the time, it was a bunch of old patriots dreaming about the old Prussia and the romantic notion of a 'Germania' (extended Germany) after a poem of the same name eulogising Frederick the Great.

There was galloping inflation in Germany, economic unrest in Russia, the fallout from the Bolshevik uprising, as Stalin purged his former comrades, etc, etc.

It was because of the surprise arrival of German troops at Turku to make their way across Finland to get to Leningrad, that caused Churchill to declare war on Finland (there was no military action, however).

To claim Finland was part of the Axis or quasi-Quisling as was Norway, is to display ignorance of the facts.

 

[Vixen]

Amongst which Willy Brandt.

And provided extensive humanitarian aid abroad.

Dutch famine 1944-1945:


Raoul Wallenberg:


White Buses:

The portrayal of Sweden as the 'great heroes' is very annoying as the Swedes did little to help their neighbours against Russia, it was a haven for war criminals (I have the newspaper clippings, including Swedish newspapers) it turned away many many refuges.

So, like Ireland and the USA (who only joined WW2 at the last minute) countries like Finland, Great Britain, France, the Norwegian resistance movement, et al, were pretty much on their own.

Being neutral is like being a fake 'conscientious objector': you get to reap the benefits that other people have had to sacrifice their lives for.

 

[Vixen]

No, language is a major part of ethnicity.

Besides that, as 52ka the inhabitants didn't speak Finnish they wouldn't have called the place Finland, nor would any foreigners have done so, so it's nonsense to say how Finland looked 52ka.

And besides that, 52ka there was no notion of states.

You didn't notice that whoever drew up that map was being tongue-in-cheek?

Finns have never called themselves 'Finland' anyway.

 

[Vixen]

It's Jäger, or Jaeger if you can't find the umlaut on your keyboard. A very odd spelling mistake for someone who claims to know German.


We've gone over this before and (a) the Mannerheim line was not the pre-1939 border but a defensive line within pre-1939 Finland, and (b) the Finnish army did cross the old border and conducted navy operations on Lake Ladoga together with the German navy.


I wonder how that went in Operation Arctic Fox, where a joint German-Finnish army tried to invade the Soviet Union and cut off the Murmansk railroad.


[ citation required ]

Maybe you could edit this wiki article with your profound knowledge of Nazi escape routes? Sweden isn't even mentioned once there.



Vixen has been whitewashing Finnish history before.

As mentioned, there was one division that was a joint German one, the sixth division as yes, there were some Finnish Generals ( a minority) who were in with the fascists.

However, the Finnish Army proper was completely separate and independent from the Germans and had wholly different aims. The Finns, for example, had plenty of Jewish soldiers who were free to practice their religious beliefs.

From your source (wiki):

The SS-Infantry Kampfgruppe Nord was created, consisting of the 6th and 7th Motorized SS Infantry Regiments, two artillery battalions, and one reconnaissance battalion. This unit was primarily an untrained police unit and unsuited for arctic warfare. <snip> The unit was renamed the 6th SS Mountain Division Nord and was led by General Demelhuber.

To extrapolate from this, as you have done, that the entire Finnish Army were joint Nazis with the Germans, is to show woeful ignorance of historical facts.

 

[Craig B]

Being neutral is like being a fake 'conscientious objector': you get to reap the benefits that other people have had to sacrifice their lives for.

Being a co-belligerent with the aggressor in the biggest war ever fought, is surely worse than neutrality - by far worse. "Reap the benefits" is what the Nazis were able to do on account of Finnish participation in the war, as some Soviet resources were diverted away from the Germans to the Finnish front, which also covered part of the blockade round Leningrad.

 

[Vixen]

Being a co-belligerent with the aggressor in the biggest war ever fought, is surely worse than neutrality - by far worse. "Reap the benefits" is what the Nazis were able to do on account of Finnish participation in the war, as some Soviet resources were diverted away from the Germans to the Finnish front, which also covered part of the blockade round Leningrad.

There are two sides to any war. From the Russian POV, Germany were their age old foes.

As the Allied Forces in partnership with the Russians won the war, we have had to tolerate the spectacle of the Russians laying it on thickly about how badly treated they were. In Finland, any celebration of Finnish war victories (for example one of the biggest battles in history at Tali-Ihantala has to be done discreetly, so as not to upset them.

Someone planned a celebration of the Continuation War heroes at a cemetery in the SW region and the local authorities banned it.

So, we get to hear poor poor Russia's side and it swamps wikipedia, yet Stalin murdered twice as many of its own citizens as Germany.

Of course, comparisons are odious and two wrongs don't make a right, or any other homily you can dream up, but you know what I am sayin'?

So, 'neutral' countries like Sweden and Ireland can smugly sit on the fence and brag about their 'neutrality', yet they harboured Nazi war criminals and helped them escape (Sweden) and Lord Haw-Haw taunted the Brits (Ireland).

Gimme a break.

 

[John Jones]

The portrayal of Sweden as the 'great heroes' is very annoying as the Swedes did little to help their neighbours against Russia, it was a haven for war criminals (I have the newspaper clippings, including Swedish newspapers) it turned away many many refuges.

So, like Ireland and the USA (who only joined WW2 at the last minute) countries like Finland, Great Britain, France, the Norwegian resistance movement, et al, were pretty much on their own.

Being neutral is like being a fake 'conscientious objector': you get to reap the benefits that other people have had to sacrifice their lives for.

After the USA was attacked, and had war declared against them.

 

[ddt]

The portrayal of Sweden as the 'great heroes' is very annoying

So what has Finland done to alleviate the hunger of my mom and her family and her neighbours?

as the Swedes did little to help their neighbours against Russia,

Duh, they were neutral.

it was a haven for war criminals (I have the newspaper clippings, including Swedish newspapers) it turned away many many refuges.

Then scan them in and post them here.

 

[ddt]

They had their own army and never collaborated with the Germans, apart from one battalion,

A battalion has, depending on the army, a size of 300-800 men.

The Finnish army was quite separate ('the Karelian army') apart from one division (VI) which was under joint German command.

A division has size 10,000-15,000 men.

As mentioned, there was one division that was a joint German one, the sixth division as yes, there were some Finnish Generals ( a minority) who were in with the fascists.

However, the Finnish Army proper was completely separate and independent from the Germans and had wholly different aims.

You just conceded that one division of the Finnish Army was under German command, and then you go on to claim that the Finnish Army was completely separate from the German army? That is some bad lying.

It's clear you're whitewashing Finnish WW2 history.

Moreover, there's the Finnish Naval Detachment K:

A combined Finnish-German-Italian unit, the Laivasto-osasto K (LOs.K., Naval Detachment K) was formed on 17 May 1942, consisting of the four Italian MAS boats, four German KM minelayers and the Finnish motor torpedo boat Sisu. The German and Italian vessels were grouped into two units under Finnish command.

Their task was to interrupt the supply lines to Leningrad, so Finland clearly contributed to the Siege. That runs counter to your claim that Finland was only in it to retake the territory lost in the Winter War.

There's also the Finnish occupation of East Karelia, which had never been Finnish.

No Finn with any self-respect EVER. saluted a German officer.

How did those soldiers in the 6th division do that, not salute their German peers or superiors?

Finland was never part of the Axis,

To claim Finland was part of the Axis or quasi-Quisling as was Norway, is to display ignorance of the facts.

Those are your strawmen. There were only two Axis powers: Germany and Italy. The rest were their allies.

To extrapolate from this, as you have done, that the entire Finnish Army were joint Nazis with the Germans, is to show woeful ignorance of historical facts.

And that's also a strawman.

Your claims that the Finnish Army was completely separate from the German one, and that Finland only pursued the aim of retaking the lost territories and never crossed the pre-1939 border simply don't stand up to scrutiny.

Finland was as much an Axis ally as Croatia, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary and Slovakia. And to its credit, like Hungary under Horthy, it refused to send its Jewish citizens to Auschwitz.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

Anyway, congrats Finland. I bet you had a good reason for joining forces with the Nazis.

Now, here's a video from Finland's best YouTube channel to cheer everyone up:

 

[Craig B]

There are two sides to any war ... we have had to tolerate the spectacle of the Russians laying it on thickly about how badly treated they were ... So, we get to hear poor poor Russia's side and it swamps wikipedia, yet Stalin murdered twice as many of its own citizens as Germany.

... you know what I am sayin'?

Yes, I've heard stuff like this before.

Gimme a break.

I thought you were arguing that there weren't many fascists among the Finns, but your diatribe in this post indicates that there is at least one of them.

 

[ddt]

There are two sides to any war. From the Russian POV, Germany were their age old foes.

Huh? Can you expand on this "age old" Russian-German emnity? I don't get further than WW1.

Someone planned a celebration of the Continuation War heroes at a cemetery in the SW region and the local authorities banned it.

[ citation required ]

So, we get to hear poor poor Russia's side and it swamps wikipedia,

[ citation required ]

yet Stalin murdered twice as many of its own citizens as Germany.

No he didn't. Actually, Stalin murdered many, many more of his own citizens.

Hitler murdered a few thousand disabled in Aktion T4, around 150,000 German Jews (including Austrian ones), and then a couple of other categories I don't care to look up, but it's still in the hundreds of thousands.

For Stalin we have the Holomodor - serious estimates vary between 1 and 5 million - and the Gulag, where estimates of death vary between 1 and 2 million. And then there's the purges and the show trials.

But that still doesn't surpass the extent of the Holocaust-in-wider-sense, i.e., including gays, Roma&Sinti, Slavs and other "Untermenschen". That was about 11 million. And that's the difference between Hitler and Stalin: Hitler went on a conquering spree to occupy all of Europe and drag people from all those conquered countries to his extermination camps.

Of course, comparisons are odious and two wrongs don't make a right, or any other homily you can dream up, but you know what I am sayin'?

You mean, like in the other thread where you insisted ad nauseam that the Holocaust was all legal and dandy? It's almost as if you want to say that poor Hitler should have been able to finish his job.

 

[Craig B]

So, 'neutral' countries like Sweden and Ireland can smugly sit on the fence and brag about their 'neutrality', yet they harboured Nazi war criminals and helped them escape (Sweden) and Lord Haw-Haw taunted the Brits (Ireland).

I really don't think that independent neutral Ireland can be made responsible for lord Haw Haw. On the contrary, per wiki:

It was during the Irish War for Independence, that Joyce had his first taste in politics, he was recruited by Capt. Patrick William Keating as a courier for British Army intelligence in Galway, who were then fighting against the Irish Republican Army. He was known to have hung around with Black and Tans at Lenaboy Castle, which reportedly resulted in the Irish Republican Army dispatching a volunteer, Michael Molloy, to murder Joyce on his way home from school in December 1921, although minors were normally excluded from being executed by the IRA ...

On 22 October 1924, while stewarding a meeting in support of Jack Lazarus (the Conservative Party candidate for Lambeth North in the general election), Joyce was attacked by Communists and received a deep razor slash that ran across his right cheek. It left a permanent scar which ran from the earlobe to the corner of the mouth. While he claimed that his attackers were Jewish, his first wife said that "it wasn't a Jewish Communist who disfigured him .... He was knifed by an Irish woman."​

Joyce was conceived in the womb of British imperialism, and nourished in its bosom. But that ideology wasn't extreme enough to satisfy the tastes he had acquired in the company of the Black and Tans, so he transferred his allegiance to the Nazis, and paid the penalty at the end of a rope.

 

[Craig4]

The portrayal of Sweden as the 'great heroes' is very annoying as the Swedes did little to help their neighbours against Russia, it was a haven for war criminals (I have the newspaper clippings, including Swedish newspapers) it turned away many many refuges.

So, like Ireland and the USA (who only joined WW2 at the last minute) countries like Finland, Great Britain, France, the Norwegian resistance movement, et al, were pretty much on their own.

Being neutral is like being a fake 'conscientious objector': you get to reap the benefits that other people have had to sacrifice their lives for.

I would hardly call fighting both theaters of war from late 1941 to 1945 "the last minute".

 

[Cleon]

No, language is a major part of ethnicity.

Besides that, as 52ka the inhabitants didn't speak Finnish they wouldn't have called the place Finland, nor would any foreigners have done so, so it's nonsense to say how Finland looked 52ka.

And besides that, 52ka there was no notion of states.

Also, there's no archaeological record in Finland older than about 10,000 bp.

 

[Vixen]

So what has Finland done to alleviate the hunger of my mom and her family and her neighbours?


Duh, they were neutral.


Then scan them in and post them here.

Not today. However, I did come across this transcription I did from the original at BL Newspaper Library, hence no internet link, of one Nazi, whom the Swedes (for a change) did intercept:

11-10-1943 MORGON – TIDNINGEN

Anthoni var en nitsk hantlangare åt Gestapo

Statspolitischeten som flydde till Sverige har många liv på sitt samvete


Den förre finske statspolischelen Anthoni, Gestapos handgångne man, som f.n. befinner sig I Stockholm och på måndagen underkastades förhör, “hör tydligen till de icke önskvårda flyktingarna.

En person som själv lidit av hans framfart har tillställt MT följande meritlista.

Som tidigare politisk flykting I Finland och . ögonvittne till hans utomordentlugt intensive arbete I Gestapos intresse – vill jag erinra denne herre om något, då han nu har det lugn som behöves för att ordna sitt samvetes kartotek.

Då herr Anthoni. på sin tid övertog ämbetet som chef för statspolisen, tänkte all flyktingar I Finland att en herre, som älskar vin, kvinnor och sang måste vara en genytlig person som också samvetsgrant och rättvist sköter sitt ämbete. Men snart fingo dess människor, som berövats sitt hemland lära sig något annat.

Polispresident lät inspärra alla utlänningar I concentrations lägret Torneå. Bland dessa fångar voro utlänningar, som under vinterkriget deltagit som frivilliga I den finska armén och innehade utmärkelser.

Jag erinrar bara om majoren dr Brinckholm, schweizisk medborgare, som deltog år 1939 I vinterkriget som frivillig I finska armén. Ehuru han var 66 år gammal, sov han bredvid mig på golvet och deltog I en hungerstrejk. De judiska utlänningarna mobiliserades till tvångs arbete. Många judar kommo I fängelse; de sutto utan anledning inspärrada I over två år, och blevo misshandlade och pryglade.

Jag erinrar om grosshandlaren. Brukman från Wien, om av Er kollega misshandlades med. Er vetskap. Denne fånge var 50 år gammal och sjuk. Efter Himmlers besök I Helsingfor, där Anthoni fick ett cigarrettetui av silver med inskriptionen “För trogen tjänst – Himmler”, deporterade denne duktige polispresident ganska många utlänningar till Tyskland och man bör betänka, att han gjorde det på egen hand utan regeringens vetskap.
Här måste man framhålla, att dessa flyktingar, judar från Wien, redan fore kriget, år 1938, kommit till Finland på viserat pass och aged fullkomlig asylrätt. För att inte regeringen av en slump skulle få veta detta, deportarades dessa stackars människor påAnthonis befallning extra, genom löjtnant Kaukanen. Jag erinrar också om den belgiske medborgaren haljuden Busch, en gang frivillig I vinterkriget 1939, belönad med Mannerheimsmedaljen; han var till och med gift en finska. Också han blev deportarad och hans fru är nu änka.

Jag påminner om de fyra unga polska soldaterna Skwara, Maiernis, Dabrowski och Trubicyb, vilka deporterades och I dag äro begravna I concentrations lägret Oranienburg.

Guds kvarnar mala långsamt men säkert.

I dag är Anthoni själv flykting I utlandet, jagad av rättvisana tjänare och plågad av sitt samvete.

11-10-1943 MORGON – TIDNINGEN

translation:

Anthoni was a zealous henchman for the Gestapo

Political politics that fled to Sweden have many lives on their conscience


The former Finnish state police officer Anthoni, Gestapo, man-in-law, as before. are in Stockholm, and on Monday were questioned, "apparently refers to the unwanted refugees.

A person who has suffered from his progress has granted MT the following qualifications list.

As a former political refugee in Finland and. eyewitness to his extraordinarily intensive work In Gestapo's interest - I would like to remind this gentleman of something, as he now has the peace needed to arrange his co-op.

Then Mr. Anthoni. At the time, the office took over as head of state police, all refugees in Finland thought that a gentleman who loves wine, women and song must be a nice person who also conscientiously and fairly carries out his duties. But soon her people, who were deprived of their homeland, learned something else.

Police president let all foreigners in the camp of Torneå shelter. Among these prisoners were foreigners who, during the winter war, participated as volunteers in the Finnish army and held awards.

I only recall the Major Dr Brinckholm, Swiss Citizen, who participated in 1939 in the winter war as a volunteer in the Finnish army. Although he was 66 years old, he slept next to me on the floor and participated in a hunger strike. The Jewish foreigners were mobilized for forced labor. Many Jews came into jail; they left for no more reason for more than two years, and were battered and smashed.

I recall the wholesale dealer. Wife from Vienna, if your colleague was beaten with. Is knowledge. This prisoner was 50 years old and sick. After Himmler's visit to Helsingfor, where Anthoni received a cigarette purse of silver with the inscription "For faithful service - Himmler", this skilled police president deported quite a few foreigners to Germany, and it should be remembered that he did it on his own without the government's knowledge.

Here, it must be noted that these refugees, Jews from Vienna, already before the war, in 1938, arrived in Finland on visas and aged full rights of asylum. In order not to know the government by chance, these poor people were deported by Antonio Luther's command extra by Lieutenant Kaukan. I also recall the Belgian citizen Haljud Busch, once volunteered in the 1939 winter war, rewarded with the Mannerheim Medal; He even married a Finnish. He also became deported and his wife is now widow.

I recall the four young Polish soldiers Skwara, Maiernis, Dabrowski and Trubicyb, who were deported and today are buried in the concentration camp Oranienburg.

God's mills slowly but surely grind.

Today, Anthoni himself is fleeing abroad, chased by fair servants and afflicted by his conscience.