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Fine-Tuning Problem in Cosmology

Is the Fine-Tuning Problem Real?

  • Yes, cosmology needs to explain why the values of the physical constants appear to be finely balance

    Votes: 12 10.3%
  • No, it's nothing more than a puddle marveling at how well it fits into the hole it's in.

    Votes: 105 89.7%

  • Total voters
    117
Ok. I just don't see anything wrong with the word "problem" since that's what physicists and mathematicians are usually calling it.

Just re-read the poll. Option #1 reads: "Yes, cosmology needs to explain why the values of the physical constants appear to be finely balanced (fine-tuned) to allow for life to exist."

This does not ask if we think of it is a 'problem' as in 'challenge', but wether it is a 'problem' as in 'credibility problem'.

Hans
 
Could you state the fine tuning problem in your own words?

Here's what I think is the problem. IIRC, there are 19 parameters in QM that cannot be derived from first principles and must be measured and put in to the theory. You can create any number of models of universes completely different from the one we inhabit by changing either of those values. Without a Multiverse hypotesis, it seems extremely unlikely that those values arose randomly.

I think I just got confused about who were arguing what. I don't think there are any deities involved in TFTP, at all.

Anyway, I think you should check out this video:

 
"The laws of science, as we know them at present, contain many fundamental numbers, like the size of the electric charge of the electron and the ratio of the masses of the proton and the electron. ... The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life."
Brief History of Time

"Remarkable" facts need to be explained. And this is before the confirmation of dark energy and dark matter:

"A major challenge to understanding accelerated expansion with or without dark energy is to explain the relatively recent occurrence (in the past few billion years) of near-equality between the density of dark energy and dark matter even though they must have evolved differently. (For cosmic structures to have formed in the early universe, dark energy must have been an insignificant component.) This problem is known as the “coincidence problem” or the “fine-tuning problem.” Understanding the nature of dark energy and its many related problems is one of the most formidable challenges in modern physics.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1055698/dark-energy

If I were to bet on whether something is a problem or not in cosmology, where's the smart money go? On Douglas Adam or should I bet on Stephen Hawking and Adam Riess and Andrei Linde and Max Tegmark?

Another way to think about it is from the movie Contact, where there's supposedly "messages" hidden in Pi. But suppose we measure out one of the physical constants to a remarkable degree and discover non-random numerical strings in the measurement that translate into messages that give us answers to certain unproven mathematical theorems? Would that be a "problem" for cosmology, or would coincidence be enough to explain it? Obviously, the coincidence explanation would fail in those circumstances. Some other hypothesis would be required.

These scientists (Linde, Hawking, Ries, Tegmark, etc.) think the coincidence explanation is insufficient to explain why the values of the constants are so "fine-tuned" for life to exist. Until we hear a compelling counter-argument from a similar set of experts (which hasn't been presented), the burden of proof is on the side of those who say "fine-tuning" is a problem that needs to be explained by something other than coincidence.
 
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Here's what I say when someone pull this card:

Sorry, but... Meh.

Is the universe fine-tuned for me?
Why I exist "now" and not say, 10Gy in the past or 10Gy in the future?
Sheer chance.
Its not raining here and now. "Here" and "now" were fine-tuned for not raining?
Sheer chance.

Some people want to be special; they want the universe to exist because of them. It was not. Humans exist because of the universe and by sheer chance. Small as the odds may be, we came to be. We are an insignificant byproduct. Deal with it.
 
Here's what I think is the problem. IIRC, there are 19 parameters in QM that cannot be derived from first principles and must be measured and put in to the theory. You can create any number of models of universes completely different from the one we inhabit by changing either of those values. Without a Multiverse hypotesis, it seems extremely unlikely that those values arose randomly.

I think I just got confused about who were arguing what. I don't think there are any deities involved in TFTP, at all.

Anyway, I think you should check out this video:


I suggest you read the Introduction to Guth's Inflationary Universe, in that speculative model, the values are not predetermined. They are somewhat random and limited by energy levels and a process akin to tunneling. It would be a suppositions to assume all 19 of the values are arbitrary when they may be linked.
:)
 
"The laws of science, as we know them at present, contain many fundamental numbers, like the size of the electric charge of the electron and the ratio of the masses of the proton and the electron. ... The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life."
Brief History of Time

"Remarkable" facts need to be explained. And this is before the confirmation of dark energy and dark matter:

"A major challenge to understanding accelerated expansion with or without dark energy is to explain the relatively recent occurrence (in the past few billion years) of near-equality between the density of dark energy and dark matter even though they must have evolved differently. (For cosmic structures to have formed in the early universe, dark energy must have been an insignificant component.) This problem is known as the “coincidence problem” or the “fine-tuning problem.” Understanding the nature of dark energy and its many related problems is one of the most formidable challenges in modern physics.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1055698/dark-energy

If I were to bet on whether something is a problem or not in cosmology, where's the smart money go? On Douglas Adam or should I bet on Stephen Hawking and Adam Riess and Andrei Linde and Max Tegmark?

Another way to think about it is from the movie Contact, where there's supposedly "messages" hidden in Pi. But suppose we measure out one of the physical constants to a remarkable degree and discover non-random numerical strings in the measurement that translate into messages that give us answers to certain unproven mathematical theorems? Would that be a "problem" for cosmology, or would coincidence be enough to explain it? Obviously, the coincidence explanation would fail in those circumstances. Some other hypothesis would be required.

These scientists (Linde, Hawking, Ries, Tegmark, etc.) think the coincidence explanation is insufficient to explain why the values of the constants are so "fine-tuned" for life to exist. Until we hear a compelling counter-argument from a similar set of experts (which hasn't been presented), the burden of proof is on the side of those who say "fine-tuning" is a problem that needs to be explained by something other than coincidence.

Yes, yet , if the value of an electron can vary by .00001 and .00002, how many possible values are there.

And we can not assume the values are disparate or conjoined. We just don't know.

We happen to exist in a universe where the values work, did you read Stenger's .pdf?
 
I suggest you read the Introduction to Guth's Inflationary Universe, in that speculative model, the values are not predetermined.:)

I'll see if I can get a hold of it. :)

They are somewhat random and limited by energy levels and a process akin to tunneling. It would be a suppositions to assume all 19 of the values are arbitrary when they may be linked.
:)


I know, but there is as yet no evidence for this, though the theory of Inflation itself is standing on more solid ground than ever. If the Landscape in String Theory is real there will be 10^Gazillion other universes out there, and it's not so strange we find ourselves in one of them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrTq_m1pLz8
 
On Planet X The Universe is tuned to 432 Hz.

Sorry, just had to quip in with the missing option.
 
"The laws of science, as we know them at present, contain many fundamental numbers, like the size of the electric charge of the electron and the ratio of the masses of the proton and the electron. ... The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life."
Brief History of Time

"Remarkable" facts need to be explained. And this is before the confirmation of dark energy and dark matter:

"A major challenge to understanding accelerated expansion with or without dark energy is to explain the relatively recent occurrence (in the past few billion years) of near-equality between the density of dark energy and dark matter even though they must have evolved differently. (For cosmic structures to have formed in the early universe, dark energy must have been an insignificant component.) This problem is known as the “coincidence problem” or the “fine-tuning problem.” Understanding the nature of dark energy and its many related problems is one of the most formidable challenges in modern physics.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1055698/dark-energy

If I were to bet on whether something is a problem or not in cosmology, where's the smart money go? On Douglas Adam or should I bet on Stephen Hawking and Adam Riess and Andrei Linde and Max Tegmark?

Another way to think about it is from the movie Contact, where there's supposedly "messages" hidden in Pi. But suppose we measure out one of the physical constants to a remarkable degree and discover non-random numerical strings in the measurement that translate into messages that give us answers to certain unproven mathematical theorems? Would that be a "problem" for cosmology, or would coincidence be enough to explain it? Obviously, the coincidence explanation would fail in those circumstances. Some other hypothesis would be required.

These scientists (Linde, Hawking, Ries, Tegmark, etc.) think the coincidence explanation is insufficient to explain why the values of the constants are so "fine-tuned" for life to exist. Until we hear a compelling counter-argument from a similar set of experts (which hasn't been presented), the burden of proof is on the side of those who say "fine-tuning" is a problem that needs to be explained by something other than coincidence.

This assumes that life was the desired outcome of the universe.

IOW: This universe was made for you and me.
 
Here's what I say when someone pull this card:

Sorry, but... Meh.

Is the universe fine-tuned for me?
Why I exist "now" and not say, 10Gy in the past or 10Gy in the future?
Sheer chance.
Its not raining here and now. "Here" and "now" were fine-tuned for not raining?
Sheer chance.

Some people want to be special; they want the universe to exist because of them. It was not. Humans exist because of the universe and by sheer chance. Small as the odds may be, we came to be. We are an insignificant byproduct. Deal with it.

Some who have left behind their belief in god still seem to have a need for god.
 
Here's what I say when someone pull this card:

Sorry, but... Meh.

Is the universe fine-tuned for me?
Why I exist "now" and not say, 10Gy in the past or 10Gy in the future?
Sheer chance.
Its not raining here and now. "Here" and "now" were fine-tuned for not raining?
Sheer chance.

Some people want to be special; they want the universe to exist because of them. It was not. Humans exist because of the universe and by sheer chance. Small as the odds may be, we came to be. We are an insignificant byproduct. Deal with it.


I agree with this. A big meh. Is there any reason to believe that these universal constants can have any value than what they do?
 
Regarding the puddle analogy, there are certain situations where the "intelligent" water (puddle dwellers) would wonder about the hole they're in.

A) If the pond were in the shape of a regular jagged circle (i.e., crater-shaped), it would likely be chalked up to the outcome of one of many natural processes and very little thought would be given.

B) If they found they lived in a pond in the shape of, say, a hexagon, they would probably wonder a bit about that, and rightly so. Regular hexagons don't show up in nature a lot. When we found one on Saturn, it was pretty surprising. We still don't know what's causing it.

So the puddle dwellers would be surprised by the shape of their "universe" and want an explanation for it. It would be a "problem" in the sense that it would be an outstanding mystery that they would actively want a naturalistic explanation for. They would assume (as we assume for the Saturn Hexagon), that the hexagon is likely the result as some as-yet-not-understood natural phenomenon.

C) If they found they lived in a pond shaped like 2+2=4 (in their number system) they would find that extremely surprising. Coincidence would be unbelievable. The natural explanation for such a shape forming naturally is only one: a vast series of ponds, all with different shapes formed by a natural process (e.g., erosion, cratering). AND the pond shapes would have to differ. It would do no good for there to be a vast number of ponds, all shaped like 2+2=4.

Absent a vast ensemble of differently shaped ponds, the pond dwellers are going to assume their pond was created by design.

-----

The question for us is, what kind of pond do we find ourselves in? The cosmologists say it is prima facia fine-tuned for the possibility of complex structures to arise (molecules, stars, galaxies, etc), and there is not much possibility of life arising without there being complex things like stars, molecules, or nothing but hydrogen atoms. Complexity is a necessary condition for life. Yet if you change the values of constants in the smallest ways, cosmologists tell us you get universes where the necessary conditions for life are absent.

At the very least, we seem to live in a (B) type pond, which creates a minor problem of "fine-tuning". The universe is surprising, but not catastrophically so for natural theories. Some natural explanation, as yet unknown (or unproven), could solve it, but an explanation is required, because we keep finding physical constants whose value seem finely-balanced for complexity.

I think the coincidence explanation went out the window with dark energy and dark matter, the utterly wrong prediction of the cosmological constant's value, and now the discovery of the Higgs Boson (which, surprise surprise, also appears extremely fined-tuned:

"So, let’s take a birds-eye view of the whole equation. The mass of the Higgs is equal to the theoretical mass plus a monstrously large number multiplied by the fermion/boson sum. Unless the fermion/boson sum is practically zero, the observed mass of the Higgs boson should be huge.

The only way to escape this conclusion is to somehow balance the fermion/boson sum to be exceedingly small. And to have the balance so perfect is utterly unnatural, as if we added up all the monthly paychecks of everyone in the United States and subtracted their monthly bills and those two huge numbers canceled out neatly.

That doesn’t happen in bookkeeping, and it shouldn’t happen in physics, either; unless, that is, there is some new and as-yet-undiscovered physical principle that enforces it. Thus, the small mass of the Higgs boson all but ensures that there is new physics to be discovered. Otherwise, we have to “tune” the masses of these particles to very precise values. Such precise balancing is utterly unnatural in physics theories, leading theoretical physicists to propose a series of ways in which this cancellation could occur naturally
.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/physics/2013/02/why-is-the-higgs-so-light/

Absent coincidence, that leaves two options: an as-yet-undiscovered natural theory or a multiverse of universes where the values of the constants differ (the values of the constants would have to differ, otherwise we're in the same situation as the pond-dwellers looking at a vast number of ponds that all have the same hexagon shape (or worse, a 2+4=4 shape), which doesn't explain anything). Since the LHC, the best candidates for a natural explanation that would explain all these precise values (super-symmetry and string theory) took some hits, and with the BICEP2 findings, inflation gained a lot of ground.

Without a good natural theory, we're in a situation of the pond dwellers in (C): we appear to live in a universe that seems vastly improbable, yet one of the few universes where the values of the constants are just right for life. If this is an unnatural universe, the tension then is the probability of the existence of a cosmological fine-tuner + the probability that we might be living in a simulated universe (and the real universe doesn't have this fine-tuning problem) vs. the probability of the values of the constants just randomly being what they are (and cosmologists say the odds of a life-permitting universe arising by chance are extremely unlikely). The odds of the existence of a fine-tuner (or us living in a simulated universe) are simply unknown. Agnosticism trumps extremely unlikely every time.

In other words, if we find we're not in the right kind of multiverse, then either theism or simulation theory wins out.
 
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I agree with this. A big meh. Is there any reason to believe that these universal constants can have any value than what they do?

It hinges on whether the universe is unnatural or not. Natural universe theories took a big hit with the LHC:

The LHC has been nothing short of a revolutionary force in advancing our understanding of the cosmos. Many times, revolutionary understandings present uncomfortable truths; because the LHC did not find the particular zoo of particles scientists were looking for, it’s forcing a large number of physicists to grapple with the idea of an unnatural universe. Hope is not lost for a natural order though. The LHC will start smashing protons together again in 2015 in a final search for answers and naturalness. If the search turns up empty handed, what will happen then?

Firstly, it’s very probable that the multiverse theory will take center stage as one of the most plausible models explaining our universe. If the universe is unnatural, and contains arbitrary constants that allow for conditions in our universe perfect for life to arise, physicists reason that, in order to balance out the improbability of such a universe, there must be other universes with differing laws of physics. One such hypothesis containing a multiverse construct, string theory, theorizes about 10^500 multiverses exist. With so many universes, it is extremely likely that this random chance would eventually produce a life-favoring universe, and the rest is history.


http://www.fromquarkstoquasars.com/is-the-universe-unnatural/

If the LHC provides more evidence the universe is unnatural, than the fine-tuning problem becomes that much worse.

"With the discovery of only one particle, the LHC experiments deepened a profound problem in physics that had been brewing for decades. Modern equations seem to capture reality with breathtaking accuracy, correctly predicting the values of many constants of nature and the existence of particles like the Higgs. Yet a few constants — including the mass of the Higgs boson — are exponentially different from what these trusted laws indicate they should be, in ways that would rule out any chance of life, unless the universe is shaped by inexplicable fine-tunings and cancellations."

http://www.quantamagazine.org/20130524-is-nature-unnatural/

"Nature is not always so kind, however. Fields like particle physics and cosmology sometimes include good theories that fit all the data but nevertheless seem unsatisfying to us. The Hot Big Bang model, for example, which posits that the early universe was hot, dense, and rapidly expanding, is an excellent fit to cosmological data. But it starts by assuming that the distribution of matter began in an incredibly smooth configuration, distributed nearly homogeneously through space. That state of affairs appears to be extremely unnatural. Of all the ways matter could have been distributed, the overwhelming majority are wildly lumpy, with dramatically different densities from place to place. The initial conditions of the universe seem uncanny, or “finely tuned,” not at all as if they were set at random."
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/03/23/when-nature-looks-unnatural/#more-152518 (Sean Carroll, a theoretical physicist at the California Institute of Technology)

Physicist after physicist is claiming this. Standouts like Hawking, Tegmark, Linde, Carroll and others. I scratch my head: how can so many skeptics be so wrong about something? It's like arguing with climate deniers who trot out their tired, old (in this case dead) "experts" (Victor Stenger being one).
 
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Where is the proof that different values would necessarily result in far less complexity?

Our current universe is 99.9999999999999999999999999% empty space. You call that complex? Our bodies may be composed of 'fantastically' complex molecules, but we are an insignificant part of the Universe - a tiny speck of crud that wouldn't be missed if we didn't exist. How can we insist that a different universe wouldn't be complex enough to support life, when our own universe is so devoid of it?

The possibility of any complexity is the issue at stake.

And what makes us think that these 'fundamental' parameters have independent values that could be freely chosen? I bet they are actually the result of even more fundamental parameters having relationships that we just haven't discovered yet.

See my post above about whether the universe is natural or not. The LHC's obserations have not been kind to the "natural" camp.
 

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