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Final Push Against Polio

I hope so. If it is I am starting to fear it may be the last.
 
The news seems encouraging. Maybe someone should have pointed out to these Nigerian clerics that not vaccinating causes infertility - you're not fertile if you're dead, and not very if you're paralysed.

OK, where's Rouser.....?

Rolfe.
 
And here I thought this would be "pugs against Polio." You know, those cute snubbed face little roly-poly puppies who always look suprised. That would be cool. An army of little pugs crusading for vaccination against polio. *sighs*
 
I posted a related article from WHO on one of the vaccination threads (rouser ignored it, of course) about the increase in polio cases on areas of Nigeria due to very low vaccination rates. Glad to see the governments are commiting to complete vaccination to rid this disease from the planet.
 
BTox said:
(rouser ignored it, of course) ....
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The ironic thing about all this is that this is exactly the news which could give Rouser what he wants.

He advocates stopping vaccination (well, unless you challenge him directly that's what he advocates), on the grounds that there is essentially no polio in the US, and therefore the harm attributable to the vaccine is greater than the harm attributable to the disease. He can't get his brain round the fact that it is not a choice between the spectrum of "disease" caused by vaccination and no disease at all - while there is any wild vaccine still in the world and people are free to get on aeroplanes, it is a choice between the spectrum of trouble caused by the vaccine and the much worse spectrum of disease caused by the virulent virus.

Of course he also tries to claim that the virulent disease isn't dangerous and you can just choose not to get sick if you're exposed to it, but that's a whole other delusion.

The point is that you can't stop vaccinating while there's a danger of reinfection, or it will all simply come back. However, if the "final push" is successful, then we really have a choice between the spectrum of trouble caused by the vaccine and no trouble at all. That's a no-brainer.

Thanks to the hated vaccines, Rouser may get exactly what he wants.

I hope so.

And then measles next - Geni may be pessimistic, but it can be done. I remember being taken along in the very first push with the first injectable polio vaccine. I was two. I was also seriously curious. I asked questions. My parents explained. They were graphic enough about the disease this jag was intended to prevent that I've never forgotten it. Nearly everyone then seemed to know of someone who'd been paralysed or even killed by it. Now, I've never encountered it. Hardly anyone really remembers. Hence the world is a safer place for idiots like Rouser.

I remember getting measles. I was eight. There was no way to prevent it. It was horrible. I lost a whole day to delirium and couldn't stop being sick. Then a few years later I heard on the radio that a vaccine was now available. I felt really cheated. Why couldn't they have been quicker so that I wouldn't have had to have measles? But then, most people got it, most people were pretty sick but got better, a few people didn't get better. Now it's rare enough that people forget, they feel they have the luxury to get scared of the vaccine.

But although these people are vocal, there aren't that many of them. And they don't have a huge amount of power. The truth tends to win in the end. I think the WHO will succeed with polio soon, and I think they'll succeed in the longer term with measles too.

Just my Polyanna moment for tonight. :cool:

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
But although these people are vocal, there aren't that many of them. And they don't have a huge amount of power. The truth tends to win in the end. I think the WHO will succeed with polio soon, and I think they'll succeed in the longer term with measles too.

Just my Polyanna moment for tonight. :cool:

Rolfe.
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I dunno. I know 2 people personally (and I don't know that many people) that don't vaccinate their kids. They also spread the crap propoganda in order to recruit others not to. That's why they hate me and won't talk to me anymore.

I can post a link to a site with literally hundreds of parents that are anti-vaccine.

I can tell you ten books off the top of my head that are anti-vaccine. The only vaccine book in The local Chapters store is anti-vaccine. It's a huge store, and very popular.

At our local "World of Women" show where hundreds of vendors set up shop-there was a hugely popular booth that had a whole bunch of hand outs and books that warned of the dangers of vaccines, and "what the doctor won't tell you" about them. I was freakin livid when I saw that. I wanted to yell at them all. I just glared at any of the couple of people tending the booth and stomped off. That was in October.

List of Vendors

Okay, there were a hundred and nineteen. You can see the listing for the booth I was attending for AEI Wealth Management.

It was the "Joy In Health and Nutrition" booth that had the anti-vaccine handouts, and I stayed away from the other woo woo booths so that I wouldn't get pissed off again.

The Edmonton CTV news had a story on vaccines and autism. Then showed a guy who had alternatives to vaccines available (vitamins, etc "for health"). This is the main news for that region, and A channel is the next biggest.

Lots of people in the UK and australia are vocal against vaccines.

I may be just paranoid, but I think we have a big problem on our hands.

If polio is wiped out, then I will be relieved that it can't spread around because of the unvaccinated people.



From the article:

But it has led to neighbouring countries - already declared polio-free - being re-infected with the virus.
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Stupid people hurt others. There's always going to be stupid people. What if nigerians start the "freedom of choice" that moms are going on about in the West? How are they vaccinating everyone despite the idiot rumors of infertility? Is it law there?

I know sites that give advice about how to avoid getting your child vaccines and do up a fake immunization record so the unvaccinated kids can go to schools and daycares where they require kids to be vaccinated.

They come up with lists that allow them to be exempt from immunizations (religions reasons at the top of that list).

Ways to avoid vaccines
 
Eos,

Eos of the Eons said:
Lots of people in the UK and australia are vocal against vaccines.
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There really isn't a strong anti-vaccination push in Australia.....

BOOST TO AUSTRALIA'S NATIONAL IMMUNISATION PROGRAM

Unfortunately this is a politically biased document but the figures are probably accurate because it is based on an immunization register. The register is supplied with information by vaccinators at the time of vaccination.
Presently the vaccination rate is above 90% which is sufficient to provide herd immunity. The 10% consist mainly of infants or children whose parents haven't gotten around to it as yet or who have intercurrent illness. True concientious objectors comprise about 0.7 % of the population......

Refusal of parents to vaccinate

We are generally a very sensible lot down here. :)

BillyJoe
 
Eos of the Eons said:
I know 2 people personally (and I don't know that many people) that don't vaccinate their kids.
Click to expand...
That's actually the strongest part of your data.

Yes, there is a lot of propaganda being circulated. The Internet is very good at concentrating little groups of lunatics, and easily gives the impression that their cause is stronger than it really is. I've seen the stuff in bookshops and so on - but looking round at actual people, I'm not seeing anyone paying a lot of attention.

BillyJoe has pointed out that although you can find groups of anti-vaccinators in Australia, the view isn't at all strong there. It may well be that the view is relatively strong in the US. I suspect it's in between in the UK - partly thanks to the media always referring to "the controversial MMR vaccine" there has been some fall-off in uptake, but it's still a fairly small minority who question the value of the vaccination programme.

What seems to have happened with polio is that the countries who were opposed to the vaccination programme paid the price, and their politicians have got the message. If countries who vaccinate become disease-free and countries who don't, don't; well, most people can do that sum.

It matters most when governments fall for the anti-vaccination propaganda. When this happens, that country is in trouble. But if the government has the sense to get heavy with compulsory vaccination, then a few nut-jobs don't matter so much.

Yes, it will take longer than it would have taken if everybody pulled together, but I still think it will happen.

Rolfe.
 
geni said:
The vacination take up rate for scotland is 86.4%. I can't find the figures for england.
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There does seem to be quite a marked geographical variation. High socio-economic status seems to go with being a refusnik, to some extent.

I asked my friend who's a GP in Bradford how she was getting on, and she said no trouble. "My patients don't have the time or the inclination to read all that rubbish. If the doctor tells them this is what should be done, they don't usually argue."

Meanwhile madam organic GM-free homoeopathic low-fat lettuce in Kensington is feeling really intellectual by reading all this tripe and gaining the illusion that she has an informed opinion.

However, madam Kensinton is playing with fire. There is likely to be a very unpleasant learning curve here. When it becomes obvious that the areas with the high vaccine uptake are disease-free while the ones with the low uptake are experiencing disease, the numbers of refusniks are likely to diminish.

In the long term, it usually becomes obvious who's telling the truth.

Rolfe.
 
Whew, thanks for those posts. I live in nutball town, and the "natural" movement is kinda new here.

The papers have carried stories about the dangers of irradiation and the ploy to use irridiation to get rid of nuclear waste. I posted a good clear rebuttal, and got chastised for "sticking up for irradiation".

Then I go to the darn women's show and people are all over the quackery booths (gag).

There's organic food in the fridge at work.

Then my freakin friend friend still comes up with the newest anti-vaxx propoganda.

Once people realize it's all nonsense, it should calm down a bit.

If one more person I know suggests I should look into the dangers of vaccines, I'm gonna freak on them though.

Yes, most people I encounter haven't heard the worst of it, but with the email I've been getting, it kinda freaks me out.

I'll keep reading your posts for reassurance.

I've looked up vaccine rates for my area, and haven't seen anything. I'm hoping to, and that it will make me feel things aren't as crazy as it seems.

I'll keep reading your posts for reassurance.
:)


Thank you, Thank you.
 
Rolfe said:
But if the government has the sense to get heavy with compulsory vaccination, then a few nut-jobs don't matter so much.
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The Australian Government does not have acompulsory vaccination policy (see second link above). Compulsory vaccination is, I think, counterproductive because it provides a focus for the anti-vaccination lobby and, I think, a legitimate one. Instead they encourage vaccination by linking it to Family Allowance payments. The family's children must be up-to-date with their vaccinations. Or, if they consciously object to vaccinations, the parents must go to the bother of signing a Statutory Declaration to this effect. They can't simply opt out as they were able to before. The policy seems to have worked (raising vaccination rates from 58% to 91% in eight years)

BillyJoe
 
BillyJoe said:
Compulsory vaccination is, I think, counterproductive because it provides a focus for the anti-vaccination lobby and, I think, a legitimate one....
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You're right, of course, as usual dammit!

I was really thinking about tactics during the final push, where the WHO may well need government backing to wipe out the final pockets. Carrots are always better than sticks, and even sticks work better if they're dressed up nice.

I think the real point is that if the government is committed to a good vaccination policy, and using a bit of sense in its efforts to get people on board, success will eventually be achieved. The real number of totally kook woo-woos is small enough that you can essentially go round them in most circumstances.

In Britain there is no compulsion, really nothing but some public education stuff and a bonus paid to GPs if they succeed in getting a certain percentage of the children on their books vaccinated. This can be problematical, as the real kooks accuse the GPs of wanting to poison their children for money, but since most of the job is simply getting the parents to bring the kids in when they've got 64,000 other things on their minds, it's fairly effective.

If the numbers have really fallen off that far (Geni's post) and don't pick up, I wonder if they'll have to bring in something more. But in fact it's mostly anti-MMR that's doing it, and I've a feeling that will blow over in the end. A lot of the MMR refusniks will go for separate jags if they can afford them. Not too bright, but better than nothing.

The sad thing is, it may take a real measles epidemic, with real kids getting real sick and maybe a few of them dying, before the decision is taken to get a bit more pushy.

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:


And then measles next - Geni may be pessimistic, but it can be done. I remember being taken along in the very first push with the first injectable polio vaccine. I was two. I was also seriously curious. I asked questions. My parents explained. They were graphic enough about the disease this jag was intended to prevent that I've never forgotten it. Nearly everyone then seemed to know of someone who'd been paralysed or even killed by it. Now, I've never encountered it. Hardly anyone really remembers. Hence the world is a safer place for idiots like Rouser.

I remember getting measles. I was eight. There was no way to prevent it. It was horrible. I lost a whole day to delirium and couldn't stop being sick. Then a few years later I heard on the radio that a vaccine was now available. I felt really cheated. Why couldn't they have been quicker so that I wouldn't have had to have measles? But then, most people got it, most people were pretty sick but got better, a few people didn't get better. Now it's rare enough that people forget, they feel they have the luxury to get scared of the vaccine.



Rolfe.
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Sounds a bit like my own experience, except that instead of measles I spent ten days in the hospital at age 5 with mumps encephalitis.

When I happened to tell the story to a younger co-worker recently, her response was "why did you get mumps? Weren't you vaccinated?" It was news to her that a mumps vaccine didn't exist in 1962.

I remember a kid a couple of grades ahead of me in grades school, Dave, the brother of a kid in my Cub Scout den. He dragged a right leg completely encased in a brace- Dave was one of the last examples of an icon all to familiar to our parents' generation- the Kid Who'd Had Polio.

So it's hardly surprising that when the local authorities made the new Sabin oral vaccine available to schoolchildren gratis, every kid in my school was lined up in the school auditorium, permission slip in hand. Our parents knew. So did we. We had Dave to remind us.

I can also recall the day a girl in another class who had come to school sick was recognized by the school nurse as having symptoms of rubella- another childhood disease for which there wasn't a vaccine at the time. They kept us in class just long enough to mimeograph a note to take home to our parents warning them that we might have been exposed, and then my word! you never saw a school empty out so fast.

I'm starting to think that there's a "two-generation rule" about how long it takes for lessons learned the hard way to be forgotten. The current generation of parents have never seen a kid like Dave, nor experienced the miseries of a solid case of measles- or mumps complications, so they're vulnerable to the blandishments of anti-vaxers in a way that my generation or our parents could never have been.

I don't know if Dave ever had children, but if he did, I'd bet money that all their immunizations were kept up to date.
 
ktesibios said:



I'm starting to think that there's a "two-generation rule" about how long it takes for lessons learned the hard way to be forgotten. The current generation of parents have never seen a kid like Dave, nor experienced the miseries of a solid case of measles- or mumps complications, so they're vulnerable to the blandishments of anti-vaxers in a way that my generation or our parents could never have been.
Click to expand...

Not only have they not seen it, they don't believe it. They call all the pictures scare tactics. They say our bodies-pumped with homeopathy/naturopathy can handle ANY illness.

They lie and say the diseases were caused by the vaccines, that any break out came after vaccines were administered.

Some go as far as to say that diseases aren't caused by viruses or bacteria.

Then they start in on fake reasons not to get vaccines saying they cause autism, SIDS, and shaken baby syndrome.

It's far beyond learning the hard way.

Heck, I found out today that my region has the highest incidents of pertussis, and still the lowest number of children vaccinated in my province. We're smack in the middle of the main cities too-not a remote area by far.

If the kids get the disease, their deaths still will be blamed on "toxins", and not the fact that they weren't vaccinated. They say the kids coulda fought the disease off if it weren't for modern day medicine weakening immune systems.

Heck, Rouser figured it was better to acquire immunity by getting the disease rather than take chances with the vaccines.

I can still see the posts by anti-vaxxers claiming that vaccinated children are sick all the time, and they have more ear infections.

Add to that the anti-western and sterilization propoganda.

Today an anti-vaxxer called a guy who says the HIV virus is harmless and vaccines cause AIDS a "professional" toxicologist.

Whack whack quack.
 
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