Fight fire with fire, or idiocy with logic: JREF project?

[Undesired Walrus]

It's 1am in the morning here, and I dont have any 9-5 on friday so I am indulging in some videos. I am watching the BBC's "The falling man" on youtube, and it is simply devastating. Seeing the images of rows upon rows of people leaning out the WTC, and gasping for air.

It is often neglected what a horrific blow this was for humanity on this day. All we often focus on is the political implications, but never on the sad reality of a world that is 'nasty brutish and short'. And such a nasty one that the healing process is believing in these ridiculous fantasies.

It's just so damn depressing to see these ignorant 'documentaries' on the internet that just makes them grow and grow, behind comprehension.

Did I dream it, or did someone like Gumboot, who I believe is involved in the movie industry, say they were working on some kind of project? If this is true, then this is a great step towards some sense of logic in a internet flooded with idiocy. I would be more than willing to help anyone who wishes to indulge in such a project. Studying film theory at the moment, I cannot pretend to know be a master of Windows Media Maker, but if I were to spare a % of aid or input, I would be more than willing.

As great as Screw Loose Change is, and as informative it is for those who wish to clean their glasses after them being clouded by LC (I have noticed many who have changed their minds about explosions after MarkyX's great work), would not the wider audience be reached with a neutral, researched and interesting documentary (Let me make clear SLC has all three as well!), doing rid screen caps from LC and such forth? A actual original 9/11 documentary for the internet rather than the crap there is on there?

Often I see posts on LCF, similar to this, which are enthusiastic cries for "SOMETHING! LETS DO SOMETHING BIG" to bring down the NWO, and we all know that is a momentary burst of enthusiasm which is hollow and a unrealistic burp.

But if we all club together, I dont know, maybe we could make the internet a less stupid place.

 

[FactCheck]

It's 1am in the morning here, and I dont have any 9-5 on friday so I am indulging in some videos. I am watching the BBC's "The falling man" on youtube, and it is simply devastating. Seeing the images of rows upon rows of people leaning out the WTC, and gasping for air.

It is often neglected what a horrific blow this was for humanity on this day. All we often focus on is the political implications, but never on the sad reality of a world that is 'nasty brutish and short'. And such a nasty one that the healing process is believing in these ridiculous fantasies.

It's just so damn depressing to see these ignorant 'documentaries' on the internet that just makes them grow and grow, behind comprehension.

Did I dream it, or did someone like Gumboot, who I believe is involved in the movie industry, say they were working on some kind of project? If this is true, then this is a great step towards some sense of logic in a internet flooded with idiocy. I would be more than willing to help anyone who wishes to indulge in such a project. Studying film theory at the moment, I cannot pretend to know be a master of Windows Media Maker, but if I were to spare a % of aid or input, I would be more than willing.

As great as Screw Loose Change is, and as informative it is for those who wish to clean their glasses after them being clouded by LC (I have noticed many who have changed their minds about explosions after MarkyX's great work), would not the wider audience be reached with a neutral, researched and interesting documentary (Let me make clear SLC has all three as well!), doing rid screen caps from LC and such forth? A actual original 9/11 documentary for the internet rather than the crap there is on there?

Often I see posts on LCF, similar to this, which are enthusiastic cries for "SOMETHING! LETS DO SOMETHING BIG" to bring down the NWO, and we all know that is a momentary burst of enthusiasm which is hollow and a unrealistic burp.

But if we all club together, I dont know, maybe we could make the internet a less stupid place.

I would be happy to provide a place for this idea to florish. I already have it.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

I would be happy to provide a place for this idea to florish. I already have it.

Good stuff. One volunteer!

 

[Totovader]

I've been working on a larger project of conspiracism as a belief structure- I think that if such a project were to take place, it's not just about pointing out what facts the conspiracists are wrong on, but explaining to people why conspiracy theories exist, how to avoid them, and how to actually gain knowledge while avoiding personal bias- etc.

But that's just cause I'm a philosophy geek.

 

[MarkyX]

Too bad we can't get Penn and Teller to make a movie with Showtime

 

[Par]

Two pedantic and irrelevant points:

It's 1am in the morning...

It’s either “1am” or “one in the morning”. “1am in the morning” is a semantic pleonasm.

'nasty brutish and short'

If that’s a Thomas Hobbes quote, wasn’t he referring to an anarchic “state of nature” rather than to life itself?

 

[gumboot]

I commented once that the only thing offering a growth for Conspiracy Theories is a serious lack of knowledge of 9/11 from amongst the mass population. I suggested a book that, rather than debunking conspiracy theories, laid out in simple to understand detail exactly what actually happened.

However I decided not to progress with the concept on this forum unless the people running the forum say it's okay to do so. I never received a reply.

I've also many times expressed my desire to do a similar thing in documentary form, however if I did this I would want to do it properly - purchasing stock footage and interviewing key people.

I did at one stage contemplate doing a "YouTube" version of the same thing, but even accepting that it would be non-profit and fair use, internet is too expensive and too slow down here for me to accquire all of the raw footage I'd need.

If someone happens to have oodles of 9/11 stock footage and wants to post me some on a DVD or something maybe it's something I could still do.

-Gumboot

 

[e^n]

Well I currently own 911db.org and it has some crazy package from Dreamhost applied so I get a silly amount of bandwidth. If anyone would like to use it to host their 911 related blogs or files just send me a PM. I wish I had the time to do all of the things I would like to do (2 papers and a video) but there's never enough

 

[Travis]

I've been researching for a project like this for some time now. I've entitled it Precisely Ordered Irrationality and I hope it can one day be the definitive debunking documentary for 9/11 conspiracy theories. So far I'm working on writing up part 1 as a manuscript which is called A Perfectly Normal Morning which will recount the events of 9/11 with a particular focus on areas that conspiracy theories harp on so that when the theories are introduced in part 2 The War on Reason the viewers would already know some of the easy answers to the conspiracy theories as they are presented. I'm holding off on a lot of the hardcore debunking writing for right now but hope to have my first manuscript up and ready for JREF comments in time for September.

 

[The Doc]

Although movies like "Screw Loose Change" and "Screw 9/11 Mysteries" are good rebuttal movies, we should now be focusing on creating something from scratch that deals with only the most popular claims. Something with music, narration, etc.

It could have interviews and all that too

Kind of like BBC's documentary, but more 'in-depth'.

 

[Travis]

Although movies like "Screw Loose Change" and "Screw 9/11 Mysteries" are good rebuttal movies, we should now be focusing on creating something from scratch that deals with only the most popular claims. Something with music, narration, etc.

It could have interviews and all that too

Kind of like BBC's documentary, but more 'in-depth'.

Actually that's pretty much what I had in mind. Actual interviews with the people behind such things as NCSTAR would lend a lot of support to the material. The ATC's have already done interviews for several documentaries but I don't know if I recall seeing anyone from NEADS in one yet.

 

[The Doc]

Actually that's pretty much what I had in mind. Actual interviews with the people behind such things as NCSTAR would lend a lot of support to the material. The ATC's have already done interviews for several documentaries but I don't know if I recall seeing anyone from NEADS in one yet.

Sounds good

 

[Reality Believer]

Pardon my noobness to this forum, but I am not a stranger to critical thinking and the scientific method.

In my view, the CB's (conspiracy believers) are leading you (us) down the garden path. They are fabricating ridiculous scenarios and coercing us to responding to the fantasy. WTF? It is like teasing cats to swat the feather on a stick, when in reality, we should be the ones holding the stick, forcing the CB's to respond.

What happened to holding them accountable to rebutting the "official story" , line by line? They are playing the "Jedi Mind Trick" and we are falling for it.

I know about the videos out there that professing the "inscrutable detail smoking gun", but that is the ploy, to present a stupid scenarios, that forces an extraordinary amount of research to prove them wrong. 10 minutes behind a video editing machine requires 100 hours of research to debunk. This isn't argument ,THIS is stupidity.

Challenge the CB's to refute the NIST, NTSB, & 911 commission conclusions, don't twist to their demands! Stand your ground and challenge them to refute reality.

 

[uk_dave]

I would agree with Reality Believer (welcome to the forum BTW) but at the same time, if making a film is what floats your boat, then have at it.

Ultimately, however, the ball is firmly in the 'truthers' court. They are on the fringe, we are the main ground. If they want to cause people to share their beliefs, they have to make valid arguments in support of those beliefs, not demand that others defend and/or justify the accepted account.

 

[T.A.M.]

Pardon my noobness to this forum, but I am not a stranger to critical thinking and the scientific method.

In my view, the CB's (conspiracy believers) are leading you (us) down the garden path. They are fabricating ridiculous scenarios and coercing us to responding to the fantasy. WTF? It is like teasing cats to swat the feather on a stick, when in reality, we should be the ones holding the stick, forcing the CB's to respond.

What happened to holding them accountable to rebutting the "official story" , line by line? They are playing the "Jedi Mind Trick" and we are falling for it.

I know about the videos out there that professing the "inscrutable detail smoking gun", but that is the ploy, to present a stupid scenarios, that forces an extraordinary amount of research to prove them wrong. 10 minutes behind a video editing machine requires 100 hours of research to debunk. This isn't argument ,THIS is stupidity.

Challenge the CB's to refute the NIST, NTSB, & 911 commission conclusions, don't twist to their demands! Stand your ground and challenge them to refute reality.

Agreed...however, there is joe public to think about. We are dealing with an "instant gratification" nation, so to speak. The majority of the naive, or "not in the know" people out there, when asking or having doubts about 9/11, would much, MUCH rather watch a video about it, than have to wade through even well organized literature. It is from this perspective, that I agree that a video showcasing the research Debunkers have done, would be a great idea.

TAM

 

[MRC_Hans]

*snip*Challenge the CB's to refute the NIST, NTSB, & 911 commission conclusions, don't twist to their demands! Stand your ground and challenge them to refute reality.

Welcome! Your suggestion is fair, logical, and academically sound. Unfortunately, that is not what counts in that game. You can ask them to refute the reports, but they'll either simply ignore you ot they'll repeat their lies and nonsense. The Average Joe hasn't read a word of any of the reports, so he can't see through it himself.

I go with the idea to provide correct information in a popular and accessible form. Once people form their own roadmap of what actually happened, the vast majority of truther claims will be obviously ridiculous. And the few that have a glimmer of sense to them will be tarnished by the silliness of the others.

Some of the truthers are actually on our side. Ace Baker, Killtown, etc. must be winning more people for the sensible side than many of us.

Hans

 

[T.A.M.]

I am going to try to read PNAC and a few other docs over the coming weeks, so I may be able to help in this regard. I also video edit a fair bit, and am QUITE fluent in Adobe Premiere Pro.

TAM

 

[Triterope]

I'm with Reality Believer on this one.

I can't seem to find it in the search, but we've had this discussion before, and somebody made a great post with the theme of "who's going to kiss this pig?"

9-11 conspiracy has all the mass-market appeal of cactus-skin coffee mugs. The conspiracy stories go against every rational interepretation of the event, and basically tell the viewer they were stupid for believing all that nonsense about Arab hijackers, and buildings falling down due to planes crashing into them. It's something of a tough sell.

The 9-11 conspiracy filmmakers don't have much of an audience, and the alternate theories they propose are so absurd they're practically self-defeating (as MRC_Hans observes). As much I hate to put my faith in the intelligence of the average person, I think this is a case where it is warranted. If the average person can't see this for the obvious tripe it is, then our society has far greater problems than silly conspiracy stories.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

I commented once that the only thing offering a growth for Conspiracy Theories is a serious lack of knowledge of 9/11 from amongst the mass population. I suggested a book that, rather than debunking conspiracy theories, laid out in simple to understand detail exactly what actually happened.

However I decided not to progress with the concept on this forum unless the people running the forum say it's okay to do so. I never received a reply.

I've also many times expressed my desire to do a similar thing in documentary form, however if I did this I would want to do it properly - purchasing stock footage and interviewing key people.

I did at one stage contemplate doing a "YouTube" version of the same thing, but even accepting that it would be non-profit and fair use, internet is too expensive and too slow down here for me to accquire all of the raw footage I'd need.

If someone happens to have oodles of 9/11 stock footage and wants to post me some on a DVD or something maybe it's something I could still do.

-Gumboot

I have the first 3 hours of 9/11. In GB form however.

 

[T.A.M.]

I'm with Reality Believer on this one.

I can't seem to find it in the search, but we've had this discussion before, and somebody made a great post with the theme of "who's going to kiss this pig?"

9-11 conspiracy has all the mass-market appeal of cactus-skin coffee mugs. The conspiracy stories go against every rational interepretation of the event, and basically tell the viewer they were stupid for believing all that nonsense about Arab hijackers, and buildings falling down due to planes crashing into them. It's something of a tough sell.

The 9-11 conspiracy filmmakers don't have much of an audience, and the alternate theories they propose are so absurd they're practically self-defeating (as MRC_Hans observes). As much I hate to put my faith in the intelligence of the average person, I think this is a case where it is warranted. If the average person can't see this for the obvious tripe it is, then our society has far greater problems than silly conspiracy stories.

I wish I had your faith in joe public, but if you read the polls, and watch Jay Leno, you get a much different picture.

If the average fence sitter needs no guidance through this shaite, than why are we here doing this? and if they do need guidance, than I think given the society we are dealing with, in the era of youtube and facebook, a video would be a good vehicle to get the other side across.

But either way, it is just opinion.

TAM