Fermi and dark matter

Supernova events.

Snap! Like magic! Tell me, what properties exactly do you need to hypothesize that supernovae have, in order for this hypothesis ("supernovae produce rocks") is compatible with (a) abundant data on supernovae spectra, time evolution, and post-shock environments, (b) gravitational data on dark matter, and (c) everything else we know about the metallicity of the Milky Way?

That is, of course, exactly what we have done (repeatedly) with
our various dark matter hypotheses. When I say (for example) "I hypothesize that axions are the dark matter" I mean that I can state a coherent, compact axion hypothesis which is consistent with all of these things and which anyone can evaluate and compare to data.
 
That's how science is supposed to work. The 511-keV-from-dark-matter claim was a hypothesis, posed in response to data. That particular hypothesis made further predictions for future data. In this case, the new data (thanks to higher spatial resolution) ruled out the 511-kev-from-dark-matter hypothesis.

The problem is that there was no empirical basis to make the assertion that "dark matter did it" in the first place. The fact it was 'entertained' at all is amusing, but after awhile don't you think it's eroding your credibility (collectively)? How many times do I have to watch you rush to try to explain something in the sky with 'dark matter' before I start thinking you're crying wolf? It seems to me like you're looking for any excuse to stuff the gaps of our ignorance with "dark stuff" of some kind.

They will try to explain the actual observed properties of the gamma rays, including spectral, spatial, and timing data.

Will they include any EU oriented concepts of any sort? If so I certainly see few if any examples of such things on Arxiv, and fewer still in mainstream publications.

If dark matter is a better explanation than the alternatives, then this will be taken seriously.

Why? You can't demonstrate any of it. It's pure mathematical speculation.

If not, it won't. Just like it has been so far. If higher resolution and more careful future work really nails it down, you may find people calling it a "discovery" rather than a "candidate" or a "hypothesis".

It seems to me that the one and only thing that astronomers do not wish to 'discover' in astronomical data is "current flow". They therefore go out of their collective way to minimize the role of electricity in space and stuff every gap in their gravity-centric theory with "dark stuff".

Don't you find it even a little odd that 70% of the universe is supposedly composed of "dark energy' and yet we see no physical evidence of it here on Earth? Then again, if your 'dark energy' turns out to be a misconceived understanding of an ordinary EM field, Birkeland's work fit's nicely into your theory. And oh ya, it also produces gamma rays. :)
 
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The problem is that there was no empirical basis to make the assertion that "dark matter did it" in the first place.

You are still confused about "hypotheses". A hypothesis is something you don't have evidence for yet.

Given that we have gravitational evidence for dark matter, and that we don't know what it's made of, any hypothesis whatsoever for what this matter is made of is worth pursuing until the data rules it out. MACHOs and MOND were worth pursuing in the past but now the data has ruled them out.

How many times do I have to watch you rush to try to explain something in the sky with 'dark matter' before I start thinking you're crying wolf?

If watching people hypothesize hurts you somehow, MM, perhaps the sciences are not a good career track for you. It's what we do. Astro does it, particle physics does it, nuclear and solid-state and plasma and so on all do it.

It seems to me like you're looking for any excuse to stuff the gaps of our ignorance with "dark stuff" of some kind.

That would sound more reasonable if, somehow, we didn't have a 20-year-old concordance cosmology in which gravity, CMB, and BBN data all agree that there is extra non-baryonic matter.

Well they include any EU oriented concepts of any sort?

We don't rule out generic "concepts". We rule out hypotheses. Do you have a specific EU hypothesis about what the gravitating dark matter is? Oh, wait, you hypothesized that it was rocks, then moons, then dust, then RAMBOs, etc., all of which are ruled out by data. "Don't you think you are eroding your credibility?" etc.
 
Um, in what way is my statement even inconsistent with 'standard' theory? Doesn't standard theory insist that all heavy elements originate in supernova events?

Standard supernova theory agrees with the standard heavy element budget in which the Milky Way is about 0.5% carbon, 0.5% oxygen, 0.1% neon, and 0.1% iron. It would not agree with your new proposed heavy element budget in which the Milky Way is something like 80% carbon, or 80% iron/silicon/oxygen (those are your "rocks", aren't they?), while all stars/winds/nebulae/ICMs/etc remain mysteriously 74% H + 24% He as usual. (And where you either don't make any neon or you keep the neon stuck in the rocks ... ?? )

Yeah, sure, "the dark matter is probably rocks" is easy to say, isn't it? But the numbers matter. Numbers matter in ruling out MACHOs in the same way that numbers matter in calculating the electrostatic charge of the Sun, and the same way that numbers matter in calculating whether a SUSY dark-matter hypothesis is or is not compatible with both collider data and with astrophysics.
 
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How ironic. This coming from the guy that probably hasn't even read Birkeland's work, let alone Alfven's work.
You really are forgetful.
I have read both Birkeland's work and many of Alfven's papers. Other posters have also read both.

You have made several unsupported assertions about Birkeland's work in another thread so it seems appropriate to mention them here:
What kind of assumptions was he making anyway?
Read his post or my quote of his post.

We'll have to save that conversation for the other thread because unless you can show some correlation between "dark matter" and "gamma radiation", it has nothing whatsoever to do with this thread.
This is the thread for the MM "lumpy stuff" = dark matter (and so cannot emit gamma rays) idea so we will discuss it here.

There is a correlation between dark matter and gamma radiation. If dark matter is SUSY particles then it will emit gamma rays. Try reading some of ben_m's posts.
 
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Supernova events.
Michael Mozina rocks = dark matter idea Question 1:
Why do astronomers not see that the number of stars increases manyfold as they look back in time?
Basically where does the "lumpy stuff" (rocks or black holes since it cannot be "dusty plasma" or MACHOs) come from?

And another observation that may be pertinent:
Evolving Chemicals is a blog entry about a review paper that plots the "metallicity" (the percent of elements heavier than helium) of the Gamma Ray Bursts (GRB) and Quasars (QSO) against redshift. There is a large amount of scatter in the plot but it is clear that the metallicity has increased (possibly logarithmically) from a low value.

IMO Your "lumpy stuff" idea means that stars will form with a large metallicity because they will include lots of dark matter rocks. Thus the data should not fit a logarithmic decrease to zero. It should be a decrease on top of a "dark matter rocks" background, i.e. not to zero and maybe not even logarithmic
 
Correct me if I am wrong.

Isn't Dark Matter something that was determined after figuring out the mass of a galaxy and then figuring the mass of all the galaxy's stars and noticing that there was a huge gap between the two?
 
Correct me if I am wrong.

Isn't Dark Matter something that was determined after figuring out the mass of a galaxy and then figuring the mass of all the galaxy's stars and noticing that there was a huge gap between the two?

Almost right---you're adding up both stars and (much more massive) non-star gas clouds. That's one of five or six major dark matter observations, all of which point to the same missing mass.
 
Almost right---you're adding up both stars and (much more massive) non-star gas clouds. That's one of five or six major dark matter observations, all of which point to the same missing mass.

So why would anyone think there is no such thing as Dark Matter?
 
So why would anyone think there is no such thing as Dark Matter?

I have no doubt that our technology prohibits us from identifying all the mass in a distant galaxy. I simply "lack belief" that any of that unidentified mass is contained in exotic forms of matter like hypothetical SUSY particles.
 
So why would anyone think there is no such thing as Dark Matter?
If you are referring to Michael Mozina then that is not his position.
His position is that dark matter exists but that without "empirical evidence" it can never be SUSY particles that emit gamma rays that could explain features in the Fermi data.
He has his own personal definition of empirical evidence which seems to be only that evidence that can be tested in controlled experiments in labs here on Earth.
The actual definition of empirical used in science and by scientists includes observations, i.e. most of astronomy, evolution and lots of geology. The definition also does not say anything about experiments being controllable. An observation of a supernova is empirical evidence despite the fact that we have no control over the supernova.

The empirical evidence is that dark matter is made of SUSY (or more exotic) particles.

Much of the thread is now about Michael Mozina's idea that dark matter must be normal matter, e.g. rocks. This is easily shown to be wrong. Planet sized (or bigger) rocks are ruled out by the search for MACHOs in the Milky Way halo only finding at most 8% of the mass needed for dark matter.
Smaller rocks are ruled out by the frequency of collisions between them This turns them into either bigger rocks (if they stick) and so ruled out above or more likely into even smaller rocks with a higher collision rate. It also heats them up. The end result is an easily detected plasma of the elements of rocks (carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen and others).

Another problem is the origin of the rocks. If 70% or even 96% of the universe (since Michael Mozina does not believe that dark energy exists) is rocks then where did they come from?
The elements in the rocks could come from supernovae but I doubt that the observed rate of supernovae could supply that much within the lifetime of the universe (13.7 billion years).
If by some magic supernovae supply the elements then you need stars to form to condense the elements into rocks. But only 0.4% of the universe is stars!


Once you have rocks as dark matter then you have real problems with the formation and evolution of stars.
  • They will form from a mixture of rocks and the interstellar medium. Thus all stars will have a high percentage of C, N, O, etc in them (a high metalicity). This is not observed.
  • It is even possible that the metalicity of the cloud of gas and rocks is so high that stars cannot form. What you may get is a hot plasma that is not undergoing fusion. After some millions of years you have a realy big and cold rock.
  • IMO stars with a high metalicity will screw up the Hertzsprung–Russell diagram by truncating the main sequence at a lower color, e.g. no stars like the Sun.
And yet another problem with rocks as dark matter:
The large scale structure of the universe is well matched by the Lambda-CDM model (CDM = cold dark matter) using the current amount of dark matter. This structure is established early in the history of the universe, e.g. galaxies are formed before 1 billion years after the Big Bang. Thus all of these rocks must have also formed early.
So there is only a couple of billion years for some process to convert 70% or 96% of the mass of the universe into rocks.
This process then stops! Otherwise 100% of the universe could be rocks.
 
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I have no doubt that our technology prohibits us from identifying all the mass in a distant galaxy.

a) Not just distant galaxies: the Milky Way too.

b) I presume you mean "prohibits us from identifying all the baryonic/stellar/gas mass". The people who invented this technology, who have decades of experience with this technology and with the huge variety of ways that dust/gas/stars present themselves, disagree with you. Your confidence is misplaced.

c) The CMB and BBN constraints on dark matter have nothing to do with our ability to identify matter in galaxies. They provide separate baryon and nonbaryon mass measurements at a moment in time before stars or galaxies existed.
 
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If you are referring to Michael Mozina then that is not his position.
His position is that dark matter exists but that without "empirical evidence" it can never be SUSY particles that emit gamma rays that could explain features in the Fermi data.

Let me try an analogy here that may help.

I'm sure that there are many "unidentified flying objects" that get reported every year. I don't have any evidence that any of these sitings relates to an object from another planet. In fact if I had to bet money on it, I would consistently bet against the unidentified flying object being from another planet, and I would be correct at least *most* of the time. :)

I'm sure there are lots of forms of matter that our technologies cannot "see", but that does not mean that the "unidentified flying matter' must exist in some exotic form of matter.
 
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Let me try an analogy here that may help.
It is not an anology.
It is a statement that you will only believe in the things you believe in.

I'm sure there are lots of forms of matter that our technologies cannot "see", but that does not mean that the "unidentified flying matter' must exist in some exotic form of matter.
Dark matter can be detected.
All of the evidence supports that dark matter is some exotic form of matter:
  • It cannot be normal matter because it would be detected as pointed out many times in this thread.
  • It acts as if it is not normal matter since it passes through normal matter when normal matter does not: Bullet Cluster, MACS J0025.4-1222 and Abell 520.
 
I'm sure there are lots of forms of matter that our technologies cannot "see"

Again, you mean "forms of stellar/gas/baryonic matter". Your confidence is misplaced---keep in mind that a few days ago you seemed to be "sure" that rocks, moons, dust, and RAMBOs were "forms of matter that our technologies cannot see", and you were wrong.

So you're now just hoping, in the vaguest possible terms, that there's some other form of baryonic matter other than the ones we've ruled out. What elements, what phase, what density, what collision cross-section, what behavior in collisions? You don't seem to care. The vaguer the better, because you don't want your hypothesis to be ruled out using (say) things we know about baryonic matter, about light, and about telescopes.
 
I have no doubt that our technology prohibits us from identifying all the mass in a distant galaxy. I simply "lack belief" that any of that unidentified mass is contained in exotic forms of matter like hypothetical SUSY particles.

If you were understanding the arguments, it is that the data do not match the theory that it is normal baryonic matter. That is why, the evidence does not match it in our own close up agalxy either. You are saying That there is all this baryoinic mass is our own galaxy that we can not detect.

Why not? Where is it?
 
If you were understanding the arguments, it is that the data do not match the theory that it is normal baryonic matter. That is why, the evidence does not match it in our own close up agalxy either. You are saying That there is all this baryoinic mass is our own galaxy that we can not detect.

Why not? Where is it?

Evidently the answer is "everywhere".

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Cosmic_Dig_Reveals_Vestiges_Of_Milky_Ways_Building_Blocks_999.html

Through the sharp eye of the VLT, the astronomers also found that Terzan 5 is more massive than previously thought: along with the complex composition and troubled star formation history of the system, this suggests that it might be the surviving remnant of a disrupted proto-galaxy, which merged with the Milky Way during its very early stages and thus contributed to form the galactic bulge.

Happy Thanksgiving. :)
 
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18202-energetic-gamma-rays-spotted-from-microquasar.html

Now, two orbiting telescopes, the Italian Space Agency's AGILE telescope and NASA's Fermi Gamma-ray Space Telescope, have detected gamma rays emanating from Cygnus X-3, some more than 1000 times more energetic than previous measurements.

So evidently we have another "natural" source of high energy gamma rays, and we have no need for "dark matter did it" explanations related to very high energy gamma rays.

It is not clear how these high-energy photons are produced, Tavani says.......

But of course anything related to "ELECTROmagnetic fields in "out"" and "magnetic" explanations are "in". We can't have that dreaded "electrical" concept in there. Yep. Look at the "explanation".

The gamma rays could be generated when charged particles are accelerated by strong magnetic fields around the stellar remnant.

Yep. "Magnetism" is "ok" by you folks. Anything that combined the *WHOLE EM FIELD* (like the term "electromagnetic fields") is "never discussed". :) You guys are so predictable. :)
 

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