Feminist Activism vs MRM

Wow that's the only response I get?

Sorry, I added more. Sometimes it takes me a bit to do edits. I reloaded the page to see if there were new posts, and I didn't see any, but I guess the page was cached.

Also Godwin's law isn't a fallacy, and if you notice I gave othe examples.

Godwin's Law is a joke fallacy. Why so serious? :newlol

You just defended Watson how emotive her message was and how well received the audience was as if that is relevant to whether what she is saying is true.

I appreciate good rhetoric, even when I disagree with the message, but I guess not everybody's like that. Sorry I misinterpreted you. To me, a speech is good or bad based upon the speaker's presentation, not on whether or not I agree with the content of the speech.
 
Sorry I'm used to people that are very aggressive like Cleon and Kevin Lowe so I'm sorry if I might have been a little short with you :). I also often need to do that with edits myself, but I notice you still didn't respond to the point about the wage gap. There really is no getting around it, the claims feminists make here like Watson does are false and are either accidental through ignorance or they are deliberate lies. There is a relevant conversation to have and it also involves choices men make in life, but that is not the point feminists make unless they are forced into moving the goal posts, but I'm sure you can agree that it's a very different one.

I do agree you can give a good speech regardless of whether you are making sense, but I also wouldn't characterise it as that good especially considering she is an actress. Compare her speaking abilities to someone like Angelina Jolie. Anyway the point is you seemed to provide her as an example of a feminist for real equality, but as I mentioned it is clear she doesn't understand what that really means. Endorsing an
 
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It depends on the work. If it's something like working at McDonald's or Target, where there's a fixed wage for a certain type of job, then yes, I can believe that women make the same wage as men. If there was inequality there, it'd be so disgustingly obvious that it would be fixed immediately. Other types of work, such as desk jobs, have variable salaries, though. I could be making $30,000 a year, while the person in the cubicle next to me makes $35,000 a year for doing the same job, because they were better at negotiating their salary. I remember reading a study somewhere that said the reason for the inequality there is because women are less likely to ask for raises than men are. Women are just less assertive in the workplace overall, so they get overlooked for promotions and pay raises.

Women make less than men for a variety of reasons such as choosing different careers, taking time off to be a caretaker, being less assertive in negotiating salary, and discrimination against them. The rhetoric is often "equal pay for equal work" (and those are the types of laws people push for), but when you control for "equal work" women make 95% of what men make. The majority of the pay gap is due to other factors.
 
It depends on the work. If it's something like working at McDonald's or Target, where there's a fixed wage for a certain type of job, then yes, I can believe that women make the same wage as men. If there was inequality there, it'd be so disgustingly obvious that it would be fixed immediately.


It would also be illegal.


Other types of work, such as desk jobs, have variable salaries, though. I could be making $30,000 a year, while the person in the cubicle next to me makes $35,000 a year for doing the same job, because they were better at negotiating their salary. I remember reading a study somewhere that said the reason for the inequality there is because women are less likely to ask for raises than men are.


I don't think that study said it was the only reason, but negotiating ability was another contributing factor to earnings differences. It's worth noting that the Reddit CEO just recently changed corporate policy to outlaw wage negotiations, purportedly for this reason.



Second page, and we have Godwin already? Daaaaaammnn.


Hey, why waste time, right? :D



Rape is an absurdly complicated topic, due to sex-negative culture, gender politics, and the fact that it's a very emotional topic. Most people don't even know what rape is. They think it's just some masked guy jumping out of bush holding a knife. It's not.


Sure. But on the other hand it ought not include when the two parties are inebriated but still able to consent. (In some feminist circles if the woman is drunk at all and sex occurs they consider it rape.)
 
And are you ready to accept that Watsons claims about the wage gap are false? Go look at the quote Corsair posted then reread that part of my post. It's just false, there's no other way to represent it.


I would not say her statement is false. I would say it's so vague and generalized that it's meaningless. It's basically just a catchy sound bite.
 
Whoops stupid iphone, I was in the middle of a sentence when I thought I lost everything when it was actually posted. What I meant to go on to finish off my last post with was...

The fact that she is endorsing an organisation "He for She", especially after talking about male problems, is this bizarre doublethink you see is typical with feminists, even so called "moderate" ones. Where they all claim they are the True feminists interested in real equality, not like those other ones. Every one will always say that x group of feminists don't represent feminism and is just a tiny minority, but if you inquire even a little they always show they really don't know what that means. I have experience with this in real life not just on the internet. For example I had a loooong discussion with my girlfriends friend about feminism and mens rights and while there are a lot of things I could mention, the point is she said exactly the above but then minutes later said being a man is "living life on easy mode" and defends the use of rape statistics that intentionally defines forcing men to have sex as "not rape". I could only roll my eyes, as she held far worse views and defended far worse positions that plenty of feminists I had talked to on the internet, that also didn't understand what equality was, didn't.

So after talking to a LOT of feminists when someone says not all feminists are like that and that they know many feminists that aren't, I always know the chances are they really are like that but the person I'm talking to just hasn't asked the right question of them, or they don't know what to look for so it didn't stick in their memory. It like on the 911 conspiracies sub section of this forum, when a new truther turns up and says they are different, the chances are they aren't. The slim chance that they are different (especially at this point) it means they must just be ignorant and/or haven't considered some obvious logical fallacies their beliefs involve. These truthers won't stay truthers for long, or they will reveal that they aren't "different" fairly quickly. This is true for every feminist I have come across to some degree, there is always a point where they refuse to back down. The only question I always have is if it's going to happen sooner or later, it's usually sooner. However every time it's a feelings based refusal.

The only self identified feminist I have seen that isn't like my characterisation is someone like Christina Hoff Sommers, who really does seem to care about equality and what is actually true. The issue I have with her is I see no logical or linguistic justification to claim feminism should ever be considered synonymous with equality and gender egalitarianism. But I'd love that to be the only issue I have with feminists, which would be more of a fun intellectual disagreement. The main thing is you can call yourself a ham and cheese sandwich if you want, it's not someone calling themselves a feminist that I have a problem with. I want to know what they believe and what they mean when they say the word "feminist", what they think "equality" means. Equality means very different things to different people. What Emma Watson, or Anita Sarkeesian, or Hilary Clinton, means when's she says feminist and for "equality" is very different to what someone like Christina Hoff Sommers means.
 
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I would not say her statement is false. I would say it's so vague and generalized that it's meaningless. It's basically just a catchy sound bite.

Seriously no it's definitely false, I really don't think she deserves that much credit to say it isn't and that it's just "vague". The fact that she is so general taking about men and women (you say vague) shows she is talking about the averaged statistics, and this is precisely the reason why she feels she doesn't have to be specific. The fact that she says women are paid less "for the same work" shows she thinks the averaged earnings statistics are comparing the same work and that they show women literally being paid less. If she had any different point here it wouldn't be phrased in this way.
 
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Seriously no it's definitely false, I really don't think she deserves that much credit to say it isn't and that it's just "vague".


Sorry, don't agree. Her statement is too vague to mean much of anything without follow up questions. As a result anyone can draw any meaning they want from it. I'd rather have a more specific statement which can then be examined critically.
 
Sorry, don't agree. Her statement is too vague to mean much of anything without follow up questions. As a result anyone can draw any meaning they want from it. I'd rather have a more specific statement which can then be examined critically.

But what about the phrases she used? She literally said women are paid less for the same work, and the reason she was so vague was because she thinks she's able to use those vague "average" figures. The whole thing about it taking till she is 100 before women are paid the same is the same as the "equal pay day" premise that women need to work "for free" X number of days a year. What other point could she possibly be trying to make here? I mean if you can offer an alternative at least I could grant you there is a possible reason to give her the benefit of doubt. Because otherwise I don't see why we should assume she might have really been talking about something else.
 
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But what about the phrases she used? She literally said women are paid less for the same work ...


I posted from the transcript. Again, for reference:

Because the reality is that if we do nothing, it will take seventy-five years, or for me to be nearly 100, before women can expect to be paid the same as men for the same work.


In regards to expecting to be paid for the same work it means nothing without more context. Which country are we talking about? I'm prepared to accept that conditions might be different in different countries. What industry are we talking about? Etcetera and so on.
 
I posted from the transcript. Again, for reference:

In regards to expecting to be paid for the same work it means nothing without more context. Which country are we talking about? I'm prepared to accept that conditions might be different in different countries. What industry are we talking about? Etcetera and so on.

Wow that sure is charitable! Haha. Well I suppose you have at least given me another possible interpretation, but what country in the world are they known for paying women less for the same work? Theres never a distinction made when feminists say this kind of thing, where they refer to one particular country or industry, and if she had that in mind she'd have said "in stem" or something. But it's always using those generalised average statistics of pay between men and women. So I still don't really see why we should assume she means something else, especially as she seems to think equality means men helping women
 
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... but what country in the world are they known for paying women less for the same work?


It's possible. The world's a big place. There are some 200 countries, after all.


Theres never a distinction made when feminists say this kind of thing, where they refer to one particular country or industry, and if she had that in mind she'd have said "in stem" or something.


Yes, but we're not discussing them or what others have said. We're specifically looking at Ms. Watson's statement.


But it's always using those generalised average statistics of pay between men and women. So I still don't really see why we should assume she means something else, especially as she seems to think equality means men helping women


Again, in my opinion, there simply isn't enough information in the statement to begin assessing it. It's simply too imprecise.
 
That's still inequality, though.

It's not inequality if it's not equal work. The more we look at the details we see the unexplained differences between male and female income get smaller and smaller and smaller. It's like god of the gaps, we keep inserting "sexism" in there every time we stop looking because we've had it drilled into us that it's definitely there and a huge problem.

'Ok, well you may have explained that men have more higher paying jobs than women do, but there's still a gap!! ... Ok, well you may have explained that men work more hours than women do, but look there's still a gap!!'

The fallacy is in assuming that because there is a gap we are justified in saying sexism is the cause of that disparity. We can show that women earn more money than men do in various jobs even male dominated ones, does that mean women are being paid more than men are for the same work? Well that actually might be true since we have affirmative action giving women special treatment, but it's still not necessarily true and there's a variety of factors that could explain it. Single childless women under 30 working full time earn more money than their male counterparts on average, so does that mean men are discriminated against? Again, due to affirmative action it is legal to discriminate against men, not to mention quotas, so that actually may be true, but in the same way it could be down to plenty of other reasons.

Unless you are prepared to conclude that men are discriminated against as well, even in industries which are male dominated where you'd expect (going by the theories of feminists) the most discrimination against women to occur, then you aren't even just wrong, but you're also not being consistent.

As I said, this is the "pay gap of the gaps". They start out with the most vague averaged figure you can find, the averaged income of men and women. Then this is claimed that it shows women aren't paid the same for the same work. You start accounting for variables like the industry type, hours worked, etc, and the gap closes more and more. But you can still see a gap in the generalised income so it must still be true, right? But the gap keeps closing more and more, and if you don't cherry pick you can find women being paid more than men, but it still isn't good enough and must be hand waved even though there is no way this should be possible in their theory. The pay gap of sexist discrimination against women must still be there, somewhere.

There may be a legitimate issue in some areas, but the fact that this is always the path taken in the argument, one of forever shifting goal posts, shows that the truth is really not important to them. Using the largest most emotive "gap" they can get away with is. Talking about something like a general 8% gap just isn't as galvanising and shocking as 21%, so they use that, unless they are forced to move those goal posts.
 
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I finally found some statistics. It looks like when you analyze salaries on a job-by-job basis, women still make less than men.

I don't see where it addresses possible differences in:
- Hours worked per period;
- Years of experience;
- Levels of education;
- Off hours on-call / availability;

That's still inequality, though.
My apologies.

To be clear, equal pay is the only metric examined? No other metrics are acknowledged? Yes, I see, that makes sense. :gasp:
 
It's possible. The world's a big place. There are some 200 countries, after all.

Yes, but we're not discussing them or what others have said. We're specifically looking at Ms. Watson's.

Why would she be so vague we would have trouble knowing what she is talking about? I think the most logical scenario is she isn't being vague, that she's accurately repeating one of the most widely believed and widely made claims feminists have. The wage gap claim itself is vague, but they don't see that as a problem because they believe it's okay to use averaged income figures to prove sexism due to the difference between incomes of men and women. We would have to assume she was so incompetent she accidentally, but also accurately, repeated the most commonly repeated claim about the wage gap, but was actually speaking about something else that is factual, but expressed it so poorly even other feminists wouldn't know what she was talking about. I just don't see how that scenario is plausible, especially compared with the scenario that she really did mean what it sounded like she meant.
 
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Why would she be so vague we would have trouble knowing what she is talking about?


You'd have to ask her, or her speech writer.


I think the most logical scenario is she isn't being vague, that she's accurately repeating one of the most widely believed and widely made claims feminists have.


You can speculate if you wish, but it assumes facts not in evidence.
 

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