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Feeling threatened? Shoot them.

shanek said:
The connections are there. Criminals themselves say they're much less likely to commit a crime against a person who may be armed. And I'd think that would be obvious.
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Using the same - haha - "logic", you can also argue that millions of Americans are being abducted by aliens every year.

The connections are there. People themselves say they have been abducted. And John Mack, a Harvard professor, thought it would be obvious.

:hb:
 
I have a proposal:

If there is data available to us that is reliable and sufficiently robust, I'll build a database and load it in. I'll create a schema that allows us to analyze various potential causation factors (given available data) per city/state over time.

If there's any interest I'll expand on what I have in mind.
 
CFLarsen said:
Anybody believes that shanek still has me on ignore? :rolleyes:
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In case he has:

Shanek said:

other times, a city in a permissive state will pass strict gun control legislation. So I found data for these cities at packing.org.
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CFLarsen said:
Where? The only city I can find is NYC.
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Shanek said:

Restrictive: New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, Baltimore, Detroit, Milwaukee, Philadelphia, San Francisco, San Jose

Permissive: Austin, Columbus, Dallas, Fort Worth, Houston, Indianapolis, Jacksonville, Memphis, Phoenix, San Antonio, San Diego
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CFLarsen said:
Yet, packing.org does not merely group the legislation as "restrictive" and "permissive", but in the following groups:

Resident Permit/License
Non-resident Permit/License
Shall-issue Permit/License
Must apply in person
Info in Permit/License Public
Permit/License age minimum

What is "restrictive" and "permissive" among these? The question is pertinent, because you list Milwaukee as "restrictive", yet Milwaukee (Wisconsin) has these data:

Issuance of Permit/License
Resident Permit/License: no
Non-resident Permit/License: no
Shall-issue Permit/License: unk
Must apply in person: unk
Info in Permit/License Public: unk
Permit/License age minimum: unk

which seems rather "permissive" to me.

You also list Memphis (Tennessee) as "permissive":

Issuance of Permit/License
Resident Permit/License: yes
Non-resident Permit/License: yes
Shall-issue Permit/License: yes
Must apply in person: yes
Info in Permit/License Public: no
Permit/License age minimum: 21

which seems rather "restrictive" to me.

I'm confused. Perhaps you could inform us precisely where you have found this data?
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Shanek said:

Now, aggregating data from the FBI Uniform Crime Reports for cities in the above categories:

Restrictive states: Total violent crime rate per 100,000: 1,049; murder: 14.38; forcible rape: 31.70; robbery: 428.10; aggravated assault: 574.77

Permissive states: Total violent crime rate per 100,000: 887; murder: 12.18; forcible rape: 40.54; robbery: 340.87; aggravated assault: 493.92

So the permissive states had a lower overall violent crime rate by 15%. They also had a 15% lower murder rate, 20% lower robbery rate, and a 14% lower aggravated assault rate. Only forcible rape was higher, by 28%.

Property crimes were higher in the permissive states by 69% (3561 per 100,000 in the restrictive states and 6028 in the permissive), confirming the above contention that criminals in areas where they might meet armed opponents switch to crimes where that possibility is remote.

Any more lame excuses?
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CFLarsen said:
Well, you are not posting any direct links to your sources, so it's a bit difficult to check your numbers (your record of cheating makes this necessary, I'm afraid). Perhaps you could be persuaded to reveal this?
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varwoche said:
Shanek, I'd also like to see the raw data. TIA.
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It's the FBI Uniform Crime Reports. They're available at fbi.gov. Click on "Publications" and you'll see it. It's not like it's hidden or anything...
 
Kerberos said:
In case he has:
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Allegedly posted by CFLarsen
Where? The only city I can find is NYC.
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You see that little "Search" thingie? You can type in a city or anything else in there and get information posted by people on the difficulty or ease of getting a gun permit.

What is "restrictive" and "permissive" among these? The question is pertinent, because you list Milwaukee as "restrictive", yet Milwaukee (Wisconsin) has these data:

Issuance of Permit/License
Resident Permit/License: no
Non-resident Permit/License: no
Shall-issue Permit/License: unk
Must apply in person: unk
Info in Permit/License Public: unk
Permit/License age minimum: unk

which seems rather "permissive" to me.

You also list Memphis (Tennessee) as "permissive":

Issuance of Permit/License
Resident Permit/License: yes
Non-resident Permit/License: yes
Shall-issue Permit/License: yes
Must apply in person: yes
Info in Permit/License Public: no
Permit/License age minimum: 21

which seems rather "restrictive" to me.
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What are you smoking??? In Milwaukee, you CANNOT get a permit if you're a non-resident, in Memphis you CAN. In Milwaukee there is NO shall-issue, in Memphis there IS. How can even someone as fundamentally dishonest as you even be able to twist it into being the other way around?

If you can't get a permit, or have to jump through so many hoops it's almost impossible, that's RESTRICTIVE. If you can get a permit rather easily (as is the case in shall-issue states), that is PERMISSIVE.

It's not shocking to me anymore that you would be this dishonest. What is shocking to me is that other people apparently fall for it and just believe you.
 
Shall-issue:

http://www.answers.com/topic/shall-issue

For a shall-issue gun law, authorities (usually the local police) are required to issue a concealed carry permit to any individual who request it if he meets the state's issuance criteria, often a background check and a safety class.

The following are undisputed shall-issue states: Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, and Wyoming.

Alaska is both a "shall-issue" and an "unrestricted" state. Alaska does not require a permit for any law-abiding individual to carry a handgun, either openly or concealed, within the state's borders. However, the state continues to issue permits to any of its residents who meet the state's issuance criteria.
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The reason for that is so Alaskan residents can have a concealed carry permit that can be recognized by other states.

http://www.answers.com/topic/no-issue

For a no-issue gun law, concealed carry is prohibited to the general public. As of April 2004 in the United States, only Illinois, Wisconsin, Kansas, Nebraska and Washington, D.C. (where handguns are illegal) are no-issue jurisdictions.
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To say that Wisconsin is permissive and Tennessee isn't is just so flat-out wrong it's unbelievable.
 
varwoche said:
I have a proposal:

If there is data available to us that is reliable and sufficiently robust, I'll build a database and load it in. I'll create a schema that allows us to analyze various potential causation factors (given available data) per city/state over time.

If there's any interest I'll expand on what I have in mind.
Click to expand...

What do you have in mind?
 
shanek said:
It's the FBI Uniform Crime Reports. They're available at fbi.gov. Click on "Publications" and you'll see it. It's not like it's hidden or anything...
Click to expand...

Just show a direct link. I do that all the time when I reference my data. Other people do too. I really don't see why it should be so hard for you.

After all, you are the real skeptic here, aren't you? Are you above everybody else?
 
shanek said:
You see that little "Search" thingie? You can type in a city or anything else in there and get information posted by people on the difficulty or ease of getting a gun permit.
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Yeah, I can type in a city or anything else. Problem is, if I type in "Los Angeles" AND "permit", I get 0 hits. So, please provide a direct link to the data you used.

shanek said:
What are you smoking??? In Milwaukee, you CANNOT get a permit if you're a non-resident, in Memphis you CAN. In Milwaukee there is NO shall-issue, in Memphis there IS. How can even someone as fundamentally dishonest as you even be able to twist it into being the other way around?
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Since I haven't been able to locate the city data you used, I had to go with what state data I could find. I am not dishonest because you can't be bothered to show your data.

shanek said:
If you can't get a permit, or have to jump through so many hoops it's almost impossible, that's RESTRICTIVE. If you can get a permit rather easily (as is the case in shall-issue states), that is PERMISSIVE.

It's not shocking to me anymore that you would be this dishonest. What is shocking to me is that other people apparently fall for it and just believe you.
Click to expand...

Just show your data, shanek. That's all people are asking for. You have to show your data, because you have a history of cheating.

We need to check your data. OK?

And drop this charade of yours: You don't have me on ignore. If you address my posts, then you read them.
 
merphie said:
What do you have in mind?
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I'll explain, but first I need to see if the the raw data is available. The department of labor provides vast quantities of downloadable raw data. Like this.

Has anyone noticed if the gun stats are similarly downloadable? I've clicked around the links and am drawing blanks.
 
varwoche said:
I'll explain, but first I need to see if the the raw data is available. The department of labor provides vast quantities of downloadable raw data. Like this.

Has anyone noticed if the gun stats are similarly downloadable? I've clicked around the links and am drawing blanks.
Click to expand...

Department of labor?? What kind of data do you want?
 
merphie said:
Department of labor?? What kind of data do you want?
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It's an example of a government web site that provides downloadable data. I'm wondering if FBI does same. If they do it's not evident.
 
varwoche said:
It's an example of a government web site that provides downloadable data. I'm wondering if FBI does same. If they do it's not evident.
Click to expand...

It's in PDF format I believe.
 
varwoche said:
Has anyone noticed if the gun stats are similarly downloadable? I've clicked around the links and am drawing blanks.
Click to expand...
They offer an annual publication called "Crime in the United States." I'm not sure if the data you're looking for is there. The file is available as pdf, and the tables as xls.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm#cius
 
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