Feeling threatened? Shoot them.

[Skeptical Greg]

"The force required to fracture the frontal sinus has been reported to be 800-2200 lb of force and is usually sufficient to cause significant associated injuries"


Very interesting and informative link.

I'm sure that a lot of martial artists, professional boxers, and Olympic athletes would love to know how a human being can develop forces of that magnitude in a punch.

I know that Newton would probably want to be alive to see it.

I think it is even more interesting to consider that the figure given represents almost three orders of magnitude.. Wonder why that is ?

 

[varwoche]

when you took that psych exam that the state bar requires before letting you take people's lives in your hands, what did it say... Oh, wait a minute, there *is* no screening for psychopathy among lawyers...just among cops.

TRULY HILARIOUS!

Imagine the screening that takes place in order to become atty general of the US. Then realize that the former atty general talks in tongues and belongs to a congregation that handles snakes.

 

[crimresearch]

I think it is even more interesting to consider that the figure given represents almost three orders of magnitude.. Wonder why that is ?

Because the forces at work in a headon car collision can vary greatly?

Or did you have an explanation in mind?

 

[Suddenly]

TRULY HILARIOUS!

Imagine the screening that takes place in order to become atty general of the US. Then realize that the former atty general talks in tongues and belongs to a congregation that handles snakes.

Now Now. He didn't do anything really crazy like change screen names on an internet board did he?

I wonder if Ashcroft had the same problem with the background checks that I did. You have to list all of your past physical addresses. Given my socio-economic background I lived in several places where there were no addresses, just in some house or trailer up a "hollow" off of some road that had no set name, and a PO or RR box number....

I feel for Johnny. Hard to completely de-yokel yourself. He kept the snakes and other odd religious practices, I still like stock car racing.... So for the grace of Ed go I...

 

[shanek]

*cough*Projection*cough*

Feel free to point out whenever I have simply repeated claims with no regard for the refutations presented...if you can.

 

[shanek]

Because the forces at work in a headon car collision can vary greatly?

Or did you have an explanation in mind?

Ahem:

The majority of these fractures are caused by automobile accidents and assaults.

Which is precisely what we were talking about.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Because the forces at work in a headon car collision can vary greatly?

Or did you have an explanation in mind?

I realize the force can vary.. Face against windshield ( fist ) at 30mph, 60 , 80 , etc.

Why would the facial bones sometimes break at 800lbs, but sometimes not break at twice that, and more?

Do you think from the information given, that sinus bones never break with a force of less than 800 lbs?

Do you think in the course of any punch to the nose, the pressure between any point of a face and fist will never exceed 800lbs, even though the average pressure might be considerably less.

Do facial bones ever get broken by fists? How do you imagine that happens?

 

[crimresearch]

If you had read the thread, you would have noted that I was the one who set the parameters of a punch up to include lethality. That leaves room for freak accidents, pre-existing conditions, aggravating factors, etc.

No one here is claiming that a punch can't kill, so your questions are non-sequiturs.

We are questioning the existence of a martial arts technique that was first claimed to kill with relatively little force though driving a bone into the brain...now the claim is one of a martial arts technique that easily kills through the referenced sinus injury...

I would still like to see a quantitative explanation as to how one punches in the ranges of power that medical doctors have identified with Shanek's claimed death touch mechanism.

Do you have one?

 

[thaiboxerken]

One would have to be use a very powerful strike to break the face in the way that Shanek is claiming. With that kind of power behind the shot, I think any target on the face has a good chance of being lethal. However, the nature of Shanek's claim changes at that point. It's no longer a simple "shove the nose into the brain" to kill people, but now it is "hit them very, very,very hard in the nose" to kill them.

 

[shanek]

One would have to be use a very powerful strike to break the face in the way that Shanek is claiming. With that kind of power behind the shot, I think any target on the face has a good chance of being lethal. However, the nature of Shanek's claim changes at that point. It's no longer a simple "shove the nose into the brain" to kill people, but now it is "hit them very, very,very hard in the nose" to kill them.

Yes, but I have already acknowledged I was mistaken.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

If you had read the thread, you would have noted that I was the one who set the parameters of a punch up to include lethality. That leaves room for freak accidents, pre-existing conditions, aggravating factors, etc.

No one here is claiming that a punch can't kill, so your questions are non-sequiturs.

We are questioning the existence of a martial arts technique that was first claimed to kill with relatively little force though driving a bone into the brain...

Who is claiming this ? Shane admitted a mistake .



now the claim is one of a martial arts technique that easily kills through the referenced sinus injury...


Now ? Where ?

I would still like to see a quanitative explanation as to how one punches in the ranges of power that medical doctors have identified with Shanek's claimed death touch mechanism.

Again, where did Shane claim this

Do you have one?

You and TBK are making a big point about forces in excess of 800lbs required to break facial bones, yet you admit that it happens, ( how often and ending in death notwithstanding ) with fists.. Why do I need to be qualitative? Or, are you saying that punches never break facial bones?

Non sequitars? Me?


If you're just going for the last word, it's all yours..

 

[Skeptical Greg]

One would have to be use a very powerful strike to break the face in the way that Shanek is claiming.


Yes, I agree. Are you saying it never happens?


With that kind of power behind the shot, I think any target on the face has a good chance of being lethal. However, the nature of Shanek's claim changes at that point. It's no longer a simple "shove the nose into the brain" to kill people, but now it is "hit them very, very,very hard in the nose" to kill them.




Again, I agree. I'm sure Shane does too.

Your point, other than " Shane made a misinformed statement and admitted it " ?

 

[thaiboxerken]

A one shot punch to the face CAN kill, but the odds are relativelyl low. It would be a freak accident unless you are a very strong puncher or the the victim is weak.

Ok, so Shanek was mistaken. Why go on about it with links about sinuses and blood then?

 

[crimresearch]

You and TBK are making a big point about forces in excess of 800lbs required to break facial bones, yet you admit that it happens, ( how often and ending in death notwithstanding ) with fists.. Why do I need to be qualitative? Or, are you saying that punches never break facial bones?

Making up fake claims as to what was said or 'admitted', and asking 'where?' about posts and evidence that are clearly visible may get you a life membership in the CF Larsen Debate for the Sake of Debate Society, but it falls short with skeptics.

Shanek made a specific and quantitative claim about the ease and quickness of death that can be caused by striking a certain way, which he has not retracted...he has shifted the goal post from an invisible bone, to flooded sinuses.

No one *has to* be quantative, or answer the questions, or provide eividence to support assertions...and we don't have to stop laughing.

 

[shanek]

Okay, trying to get this thread back on track...

Some people were dissatisfied with Mississippi as a single indication of whether or not guns prevent crime. So here's what I did:

I got a list of the states that had unrestricted gun possession, shall-issue permit states, and gun restricted states from keepandbeararms.com. I got their crime data for 2003 from the FBI Uniform Crime Reports. I took the different categories, state by state, and took the population and the rate of violent crimes per 100,000 population. I made a weighted average, an average of the violent crime rate weighted by population. Here's what I came up with:

States that restrict the carrying of guns (CA, DE, HI, IA, MA, MD, NJ, NY, RI, IL, KS, NE, WI): Total population 103,939,261; violent crime rate 494.2 (4% above the national average of 475).

Shall-issue permit states (all of the rest except AK and VT): Total population 181,167,608; violent crime rate 459.2 (3% below the national average).

Unrestricted gun carry states (AK and VT): Total population 1,267,925; violent crime rate 357.5 (25% below the national average).

Seems like a clear trend to me!

 

[epepke]

"Without fear of prosecution."

"Without any legal consequences."

It doesn't get less ambiguous than that.

Do you believe every sound bite is accurate and complete, or do you simply hold American politicians in such high esteem that you believe theirs?

 

[asthmatic camel]

British teachers rock when it comes to discipline...
http://www.ntlworld.com/partners/itn/britain/story1107209.php

 

[Kerberos]

Feel free to point out whenever I have simply repeated claims with no regard for the refutations presented...if you can.

How about on this thread, where you keep insisting that your Mississippi data supports your original point, despite having your error pointed out to you countless times.

 

[shanek]

How about on this thread, where you keep insisting that your Mississippi data supports your original point, despite having your error pointed out to you countless times.

What "error"? You mean people's insistence on using the burglary rate when there's no reason to believe the number of burglaries would drop with an armed population and every reason to believe they would rise, as I have pointed out, and as you and the others have ignored?

Do you mean the constant obfuscations about what burglary really means, despite the fact that the definition used by the people who compiled the statistics being used, which, for purposes of evaluating those statistics, is the only reasonable definition to use, says that it is a nonviolent crime that does not involve the use or threat of force, as you and the others have ignored?

You mean the violent crime rates I posted, which do show a dramatic reduction, and which you and the others have ignored?

I have made many, many points that you and those on your side in this thread have completely ignored. And I have responded to every refutation, and those responses have been ignored. So don't you dare even try to be dishonest and throw that back on me.

 

[LW]

A one shot punch to the face CAN kill, but the odds are relativelyl low. It would be a freak accident unless you are a very strong puncher or the the victim is weak.

Or if the victim falls over and hits his head on a big rock or something.