Sure, but would they have worked in such style?

Ohnoes, I didn't think of that argument - lose ships bad! :D

BTW: By sheer number, the fleet was cut fully in half between its fateful relocation to Hawaii and the attack. The most valuable half (newer, faster) was sloughed off in phases, the carriers and many escorts spared last, saved by *inexact scheduling* and only a few obsolete battleships were truly lost, plus some personnel, innocence, and any reasonable opposition to wholehearted war, not Gulf of Tonkin technicality police action war.

But hey, horse, water, etc...
Caustic, the carriers weren't saved by "inexact scheduling", they were sortied by Kimmel's orders. Washington told him to reinforce the aircraft on Wake and Midway. They did not tell him how to do it. You might also note that Enterprise should have been back in port on Saturday, but was slow due to difficulty in refueling the escorting destroyers. Her crew really wanted to be in on Sunday, they had a big baseball game scheduled against Arizona.

You might also consider that it was Halsey and Brown who insisted the BBs stay in port and not escort the carriers. "If we have to run, we don't want to be slowed down by 21-knot ships."

So, carriers not in port: Kimmel's decision. Battleships in port: Kimmel's okay. Washington was not informed of the movements of the carriers or battleships, such information was "housekeeping" and not required from 14th ND.

Any other questions?

BTW, I am in the process of putting all forty volumes of the Pearl Harbor Attack Hearings online. URLs will be provided after I prove I"m not a spammer.
 
All you have to do is consider the options. If FDR wanted to get us into the war, would there be some other way to do that besides intentionally sacrificing the fleet at PH?

Well, yeah.

"Lusitania" and "Reuben James" come to mind. FDR's "short of war" policy could be interpreted as "prodding the dragon". I certainly see it as such. But the Gallup poles show that Americans were aware that we would "have to do something about Hitler" in the near future (~68% in Nov. '41, IIRC.)
 
I have to have a few more posts before I can post URLs. When that happens I'll post here, unless some veteran poster wants to post them for me. ;)

You can just put the URLs up without the 'www' and someone will repair them in a quoted post. We do that all the time.
 
You can just put the URLs up without the 'www' and someone will repair them in a quoted post. We do that all the time.

ibiblio.org/pha/congress
The Congressional Investigation into the Attack on Pearl Harbor, PDF files.

That's the PDF versions, and I need to get 21, 32, and 38 before it's complete.

As for the mythology, check this out:

ibiblio.org/pha/myths
The Myths of Pearl Harbor

If you go here you'll find, among other things, the complete "Magic" Background to Pearl Harbor, all eight volumes.
ibiblio.org/pha/pha
Pearl Harbor Attack Hearings

Let's see how that works, then.
 
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/congress
The Congressional Investigation into the Attack on Pearl Harbor, PDF files.

That's the PDF versions, and I need to get 21, 32, and 38 before it's complete.

As for the mythology, check this out:

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/myths
The Myths of Pearl Harbor

If you go here you'll find, among other things, the complete "Magic" Background to Pearl Harbor, all eight volumes.
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha
Pearl Harbor Attack Hearings

Let's see how that works, then.

Fixed (I think)
 
Fixed (I think)

Yeah, they all check out. Thanks.

The "List of Additional Documents" in the Hearings page is for things that have the most relevance to the conspiracy theories, like J.O. Richardson's memos on the stationing of the fleet at Pearl (and his thoughts on the danger of attack) and the memos discussing the use of anti-torpedo nets for the major units.
 
I am a WW2 buff, and I had no idea the Pearl Harbor Hearings were available on line.
As for the Pearl Harbor CTs, they are nonsense.
 
I am a WW2 buff, and I had no idea the Pearl Harbor Hearings were available on line.
As for the Pearl Harbor CTs, they are nonsense.

I just located PDF copies and put them on my site recently. The copies came from http://www.archive.org/index.php, except the ones that I have to track down. I put HTML copies online starting in 1992. The missing volumes have been tracked all but one of them located. Within the next few month I should have all of them except Pt. 21 online. And I have leads on that one.
 
Most people don't care about history, period. It means nothing to them.
 
Most people don't care about history, period. It means nothing to them.

Hence the popularity of "American Idol." However, those people can be, generally, ignored. The sites I listed above get about 60K hits a month, on the front pages, more than that on the "hotter" items. For document sites that is :jaw-dropp numbers. So those are the people I work for, and the people that matter.
 
I have to say that we have had a couple of folks bring up Pearl Harbor around here. Most are just listing it as a 'false flag' to fit their petty truther worldview. The occasional one has read, or at least read about Stinnett's book. Sadly, Stinnett does a good job of making it look like he did research when he actually is badly misrepresenting the materials listed in his endnotes.

IIRC, he got confronted on this on his message board by assorted code buffs and history buffs and had to shut it down. Were you among them Gawdzilla?
 
I have to say that we have had a couple of folks bring up Pearl Harbor around here. Most are just listing it as a 'false flag' to fit their petty truther worldview. The occasional one has read, or at least read about Stinnett's book. Sadly, Stinnett does a good job of making it look like he did research when he actually is badly misrepresenting the materials listed in his endnotes.

IIRC, he got confronted on this on his message board by assorted code buffs and history buffs and had to shut it down. Were you among them Gawdzilla?

Myself and David Aiken slammed Stinnett pretty hard there. I can't believe he was stupid enough to give us a chance at all. "Comments are disabled for this Youtube" would have been his smartest move. I think ALZ played a part in that whole book, if you get my meaning.

BTW, the "JN-25" messages he claims were decoded prior to the attack were taken vebatim from Homer Wallin's book on Pearl Harbor salvage. Wallin took them from the Pearl Harbor Attack hearings. Congress sent a list of question to the Shogun MacArthur for the surviving people involved and the messages were part of the reply.

If you want to mess with a CTwit on Pearl Harbor, ask them when "Niitake Nobore, 12-8" was intercepted and decoded.
 
Caustic, the carriers weren't saved by "inexact scheduling", they were sortied by Kimmel's orders. Washington told him to reinforce the aircraft on Wake and Midway. They did not tell him how to do it. You might also note that Enterprise should have been back in port on Saturday, but was slow due to difficulty in refueling the escorting destroyers. Her crew really wanted to be in on Sunday, they had a big baseball game scheduled against Arizona.

Kimmell was indeed ordered to send two task forces out to get more planes to Wake and Midway (IIRC). It was probably up to the task force commanders (Adm. Halsey and another) to set their schedules. Now it seems that Kimmel's aim was to keep one carrier in port at all or most times. Halsey's ETA back was Saturday afternoon, 12/6 and it would perhaps be this that made Kimmel feel close enough sending the second task force out 24 hours ahead of this, leaving no carriers for a day. Instead that day stretched into Sunday morning and thus the carriers were both spared.

Reasons for this delay of Halsey's first task force: a storm, and something else. Could these have been predicted better than they were?
“Enterprise was doing her best to get back into Pearl. Her first ETA was Saturday evening, but a storm delayed her. The next time set was 7 AM, 55 minutes before the attack started, but that proved too optimistic as well.”
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/myths/

Also, was the Yorktown really needed in the Atlantic? Was the Saratoga's retrofitting on or behind schedule? The Hornet's shakedown and deployment - delayed at all? Of five carriers that might have been there, zero were on 12/7, as it happened. I'm just not satisfied that's all coincidence.

You might also consider that it was Halsey and Brown who insisted the BBs stay in port and not escort the carriers. "If we have to run, we don't want to be slowed down by 21-knot ships."

Yeah they were trying to run, but they still wound up too slow, eh? The other thing is the BBs were obsolete and less valuable as well. Right? They took instead, collectively, 20 faster warships with them (3 Heavy Cruisers with each carrier, and 14 destroyers split 9/5, leaving only 46 war ships (mostly battleships) and 55 auxiliary ships (minesweepers, submarines, tenders, etc). So yeah, that helps my point.

So, carriers not in port: Kimmel's decision.
Spurred by the Navy's orders, based on Halsey's math and a little brinksmanship, and serving to soften the blow a bit when it came.

Battleships in port: Kimmel's okay. Washington was not informed of the movements of the carriers or battleships, such information was "housekeeping" and not required from 14th ND.

Any other questions?

Yeah. Considering the scale and gravity and relative necessity of taking the first hit, have you considered motives on anyone's part - even subconscious - that may have led to the situation there that morning? Roosevelt, Stimson, Knox (IIRC), Kimmel, Halsey, have you wondered if anyone made any bad moves because of this strange attractor event from the future? IF so, how did you dispell these concerns, and if not why not?

BTW, I am in the process of putting all forty volumes of the Pearl Harbor Attack Hearings online. URLs will be provided after I prove I"m not a spammer.

I read the final JCC report, but this is the raw stuff behind that, actual Q and A? That would be interesting, and kudos for getting that together. I won't have the time; earlier this year was the time for that, now I'm on the Lockerbie beat and it's too hard to switch gears or even keep up with that one as is. (Just got the trial transcripts, actual Q and A, otherwise unseen on the nets and a lot to digest)

Alright, godspeed to you in your studies good sir.
 
"Now it seems that Kimmel's aim was to keep one carrier in port at all or most times. Halsey's ETA back was Saturday afternoon, 12/6 and it would perhaps be this that made Kimmel feel close enough sending the second task force out 24 hours ahead of this, leaving no carriers for a day. Instead that day stretched into Sunday morning and thus the carriers were both spared."

"it seems"? Please explain where you got "it seems" from. The deployment schedules for the fleet are available on my website. True using facts rather than innuendos. It will ruin your theories but improve your credibility.
 
"Yeah. Considering the scale and gravity and relative necessity of taking the first hit, have you considered motives on anyone's part - even subconscious - that may have led to the situation there that morning? Roosevelt, Stimson, Knox (IIRC), Kimmel, Halsey, have you wondered if anyone made any bad moves because of this strange attractor event from the future? IF so, how did you dispell these concerns, and if not why not?"

The people involved were not, by any stretch of the imagination, trying to bait an attack on Pearl Harbor. They didn't need to provoke the Japanese, they KNEW they were going to go to war sooner or later. Just days before the attack Marshall and King sent a note to FDR begging him to do his best to hold off the start of war for six months so they could continue to prepare. Strange thing for someone to say if they knew the Kido Butai was at sea and heading east.
 
"Also, was the Yorktown really needed in the Atlantic? Was the Saratoga's retrofitting on or behind schedule? The Hornet's shakedown and deployment - delayed at all? Of five carriers that might have been there, zero were on 12/7, as it happened. I'm just not satisfied that's all coincidence."

Yeah, Yorktown was needed there, because there was a shooting war going on there. Saratoga's refit had been scheduled about a year earlier and was schedule. Hornet's shakedown was on an expedited schedule, 24/7 in some cases. (Night carrier quals are a good way to join the "Wet Diaper Club.")
 

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