FBI 9/11 Investigations

[aggle-rithm]

Almost all documents at the CIA had a back up copy somewhere else at the CIA. It is not believable that they would actually high light with a black pen or marker, this was done to redact information in these documents which the CIA did on a regular basis.

Wh--what?!?

The Onion is WRONG?!?

 

[paloalto]

Not to interrupt the use of your super-hindsight powers to tell us what "should have been done" but do you have any idea how long it takes - ouside of TV and movies (which apparently is where you do most of your research) - for a credit card company to respond to a federal grand jury subpoena?

The FBI had their own credit card data base, called Choicepoint, that had most in not all of the credit card date available. They did not need to get a federal grand jury subpoena to use this data base as much as they needed.

Information on Hazmi's use of his credit card was actually in this data base. It is possible that the same information was there for Mihdhar's credit card also. In any case FBI Agent Robert Fuller requested from FBI HQ Agent Dina Corsi on September 5, 2001 permission to call Saudi Arabian Airlines to get Mihdhar’s credit card number from them since the FBI knew that Mihdhar had flown back to the US on July 4, 2001 on this airline.

Corsi denied him permission to get this credit card number, an action that to today has largely been kept secret and has never been explained by the FBI HQ. This information is only found in DE #650, a FBI summary prepared for internal FBI use only.

Why would she deny him this permission when he had told her that he was getting nowhere in this data base in his search for the whereabouts of Mihdhar and Hazmi. She had also been told by FBI Agent Steve Bongardt just the week before that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US for no other reason than to take part in a horrific al Qaeda terrorists attack!

This makes absolutely no sense, no sense at all.

Why would she deny him permission to get this credited card number when she knew that Mihdhar and Hazmi were about to take part in some horrific al Qaeda terrorist attack inside of the US and knew by denying Fuller permission to get this number his search for Mihdhar and Hazmi would most likely fail?

 

[carlitos]

That's nice. Now, what are you going to do about it?

 

[Robrob]

The FBI had their own credit card data base, called Choicepoint, that had most in not all of the credit card date available. They did not need to get a federal grand jury subpoena to use this data base as much as they needed.

I am quite familiar with Choicepoint. Are you really claiming it has "real time" (or even close to) reporting of credit card purchases?

Wow, you really do base your POV on TV/movies.

Information on Hazmi's use of his credit card was actually in this data base. It is possible that the same information was there for Mihdhar's credit card also. In any case FBI Agent Robert Fuller requested from FBI HQ Agent Dina Corsi on September 5, 2001 permission to call Saudi Arabian Airlines to get Mihdhar’s credit card number from them since the FBI knew that Mihdhar had flown back to the US on July 4, 2001 on this airline.

1) Choicepoint does not give any purchase info, period.

2) It takes a federal grand jury subpoena (and months) to receive purchase info.

3) Do you watch a lot of X-Files?

Corsi denied him permission to get this credit card number, an action that to today has largely been kept secret and has never been explained by the FBI HQ.

Since it doesn't provide the info you pretend it would, your point is fantasy.

Why would she deny him this permission when he had told her that he was getting nowhere in this data base in his search for the whereabouts of Mihdhar and Hazmi.

Begging the question fallacy. Not to mention, it doesn't provide the data you imagine it would.

She had also been told by FBI Agent Steve Bongardt just the week before that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US for no other reason than to take part in a horrific al Qaeda terrorists attack!

Lie. Please feel free to provide an accurate quote.

This makes absolutely no sense, no sense at all.

Argument from incredulity.

Why would she deny him permission to get this credited card number when she knew that Mihdhar and Hazmi were about to take part in some horrific al Qaeda terrorist attack inside of the US and knew by denying Fuller permission to get this number his search for Mihdhar and Hazmi would most likely fail?

Begging the question, again.

 

[paloalto]

I am quite familiar with Choicepoint. Are you really claiming it has "real time" (or even close to) reporting of credit card purchases?

Wow, you really do base your POV on TV/movies.


1) Choicepoint does not give any purchase info, period.

2) It takes a federal grand jury subpoena (and months) to receive purchase info.

3) Do you watch a lot of X-Files?


Since it doesn't provide the info you pretend it would, your point is fantasy.


Begging the question fallacy. Not to mention, it doesn't provide the data you imagine it would.


Lie. Please feel free to provide an accurate quote.


Argument from incredulity.


Begging the question, again.

Choicepoint combines personal data sourced from multiple public and private databases for sale to the government and the private sector. The firm maintained more than 17 billion records of individuals and businesses, which it sold to an estimated 100,000 clients, including 7,000 federal, state and local law enforcement agencies (30 March 2005 estimates). The data in this data base includes consumer initiated transactions (60% of business).

It is clear that the Choicepoint data base had information on Hazmi, and perhaps Mihdhar, including drivers license information, addresses, and credit information.

Choicepoint provides a wide array of information to the government, including:

•Credit headers, a list of identifying information that appears at the top of a credit report. This information includes name, spouse's name, address, previous address, phone number, Social Security number, and employer.
•"Workplace Solutions Pre-Employment Screening," which includes financial reports, education verification, reference verification, felony check, motor vehicle record, SSN verification, and professional credential verification.
•Asset Location Services.
•The ability to engage in "wildcard searches," which allows law enforcement to "obtain a comprehensive personal profile in a matter of minutes" with only a first name or partial address.
•The use of "Soundex" queries, which allow searches on personal information based on how names sound, rather than how they are spelled.
•Information on neighbors and family members of a suspect.

ChoicePoint's AutoTrackXP is one of the most favored CDB products. It provides an interface for additional data points, including:

•Linkage services, which draw graphical relationships between suspects and other addresses, neighbors, and Social Security Numbers.
•Public records, including Social Security Death Master Filings, bookings and arrests, liens, judgments, and bankruptcies.
•Licenses, including drivers, pilots, and professional credentials.
•Lists of residents of Georgia, New York, and Ohio.
•National real-time phone directories and reverse look up services.
•"SmartSeach," a tool that allows broad wildcard searches: "There may be thousands of Jane Does, but there's probably only one Jane Doe who's between 25 and 30 and lives on the upper west side of Manhattan. SmartSearch makes it possible to find that one."
The document, "The FBI's Public-Source Information Program Fact Versus Fiction" highlights the agency's access (via Choicepoint) to property records, professional licenses, news articles, driver and DMV records, census records, and credit headers.

This would have found the drivers license of Nawaf al-Hazmi his California address, and his telephone number in the San Diego White Pages.

"It takes a federal grand jury subpoena (and months) to receive purchase info."

A Judge can order a subpoena for credit card information, you do not need to get a grand jury to do the same thing.

"Since it (ChoicePoint) doesn't provide the info you pretend it would, your point is fantasy."

Since you have no idea on what information it would provide, that would depend on what was actually in the data base, and the ultimate use of this information your reply here is total nonsense.

"Begging the question fallacy. Not to mention, it doesn't provide the data you imagine it would."

I did not mention the data you claim I imagined it would, so your reply again is total nonsense.

“Lie. Please feel free to provide an accurate quote.”

To quote FBI Agent Steve Bongardt:

“Dina, Why do you think they (Mihdhar and Hazmi) are here (in the US)? Do you think they are going to *********** Disneyland?”

“Dina where is the wall defined? Isn't dealing with FISA information (at the NSA)? ......Whatever happened to this - someday someone will die- and wall or not - the (American) public will not understand why we were not more effective in throwing every resource we had at certain problems.”

This refers to the fact that FBI Dina Corsi shut down Bongardt’s investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi by claiming that NSLU Attorney Sherry Sabol had stated that he, Bongardt, could not take part in any investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi, when in fact she had said the direct opposite and said that Bongardt could take part in any investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi.

These lies and this withholding material of information, (the fact that she knew on August 22, 2001 that Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing) from FBI Agent Steve Bongardt cost almost three thousand people their lives on 9/11.

So what really is your motivation for defending Corsi and her boss Rod Middleton who were working for former CIA officer Tom Wilshire, as they shut down Bongardt's investigation on Mihdhar and Hazmi almost two weeks prior to the attacks on 9/11, using a series of lies, and by withholding material information from Bongardt and his team.

 

[TheRedWorm]

That's nice. Still planning to not do anything, I take it?

 

[Robrob]

Choicepoint combines personal data sourced from multiple public and private databases for sale to the government and the private sector. The firm maintained more than 17 billion records of individuals and businesses, which it sold to an estimated 100,000 clients, including 7,000 federal, state and local law enforcement agencies (30 March 2005 estimates). The data in this data base includes consumer initiated transactions (60% of business).

(Snip lengthy C&P)

As I said before, I am well aware of what comes from a Choicepoint report. I use them every day. They do not include purchases nor are they "real time."

Honestly, if you continue to base your POV on TV and movies it will not be worth educating you any more.

It is clear that the Choicepoint data base had information on Hazmi, and perhaps Mihdhar, including drivers license information, addresses, and credit information.

Absolutely, 100% true. OTOH, you are misrepresenting "credit information." It is not your purchases. It is not your financial situation. It is what you put on the application as name, address, telephone, etc...

The document, "The FBI's Public-Source Information Program Fact Versus Fiction" highlights the agency's access (via Choicepoint) to property records, professional licenses, news articles, driver and DMV records, census records, and credit headers.

See?

This would have found the drivers license of Nawaf al-Hazmi his California address, and his telephone number in the San Diego White Pages.

Your powers of hindsight are tremendous! Tell me more...

"It takes a federal grand jury subpoena (and months) to receive purchase info."

A Judge can order a subpoena for credit card information, you do not need to get a grand jury to do the same thing.

Bwahahahahahahaha! Thanks for confirming you have no idea what you are talking about!

Really, is there a particular TV show you base your POV on or is it all of them?

"Since it (ChoicePoint) doesn't provide the info you pretend it would, your point is fantasy."

Since you have no idea on what information it would provide, that would depend on what was actually in the data base, and the ultimate use of this information your reply here is total nonsense.

Once more for the slow learners; Choicepoint does not provide purchase information or real time information. No matter how many times you try and ignore reality, it won't change.

"Begging the question fallacy. Not to mention, it doesn't provide the data you imagine it would."

I did not mention the data you claim I imagined it would, so your reply again is total nonsense.

You claimed Choicepoint would tell the FBI about their ticket purchases.

“Lie. Please feel free to provide an accurate quote.”

To quote FBI Agent Steve Bongardt:

“Dina, Why do you think they (Mihdhar and Hazmi) are here (in the US)? Do you think they are going to *********** Disneyland?”

So you admit he didn't say what you claimed he said?

“Dina where is the wall defined? Isn't dealing with FISA information (at the NSA)? ......Whatever happened to this - someday someone will die- and wall or not - the (American) public will not understand why we were not more effective in throwing every resource we had at certain problems.”

So you admit he didn't say what you claimed he said, again?

So what really is your motivation for defending Corsi and her boss Rod Middleton who were working for former CIA officer Tom Wilshire, as they shut down Bongardt's investigation on Mihdhar and Hazmi almost two weeks prior to the attacks on 9/11, using a series of lies, and by withholding material information from Bongardt and his team.

You do realize you are posting on JREF? A website that requires claims to be supported by facts and evidence? I ask because that seems to confuse you.

 

[Justin39640]

Almost all documents at the CIA had a back up copy somewhere else at the CIA. It is not believable that they would actually high light with a black pen or marker, this was done to redact information in these documents which the CIA did on a regular basis.

But the documents that were redacted, in my opinion, must have had a back up copy somewhere else in the CIA and the redactions were only done when the CIA did not want the original documents with secret information shown to someone outside of the CIA.

Whoever marks up an original copy of a source or otherwise original document?

No one would believe that the CIA would be this dumb. This is another one of those dog ate my home work excuses to show that information was lost. Like the tapes of torture that the CIA said were not available until it was found out after the court asked for them that they had been available but then had been secretly destroyed just after the court's request.

That was a parody, you know...

 

[Robrob]

That was a parody, you know...

No, he doesn't...

 

[Justin39640]

No, he doesn't...

Must suck not to recognize humor like that.

 

[paloalto]

Who neglected what? Specifically?

How much longer do you think so-called truthers will do nothing more than post on message boards instead of trying to bring their absolute knowledge of what really happened on 9/11 to light? How much longer will so-called truthers defend the terrorists that killed my fellow countrymen without a shred of evidence?

JAQing over here.

In reply to this question, “Who neglected What? Specifically? And “How much longer do you think so-called truthers will do nothing more than post on message boards instead of trying to bring their absolute knowledge of what really happened on 9/11 to light?”

The CIA and FBI HQ neglected to warn anyone who could stop the al Qaeda terrorists when Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi were found to be inside of the US in August 22, 2001. These agencies even knew that these al Qaeda terrorists were inside of the US for no other reason than to take part in a massive al Qaeda terrorist attack that would kill many Americans. But then these agencies did something much worse.

They shut down FBI Agent Steve Bongardt’s criminal investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi , on August 28, 2001 when these agencies knew that this was the one and perhaps only investigation that could have stopped the huge al Qaeda terrorist attack that both agencies knew was just about to take place inside of the US, and that would kill many Americans?

The CIA had known about Mihdhar and Hazmi since January 2000, and even knew that Mihdhar had a visa for the US. On March 5, 2000, the CIA found out that Hazmi had entered the US with another al Qaeda terrorist, who turned out to be Khalid al-Mihdhar, and yet never gave this information to the FBI. WHY? In fact they had secretly and deliberetly allowed these two al Qaeda terroriosts to enter the US unnoticed.

The CIA had the Malaysia intelligence photograph all of the people at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting that took place on January 5-8, 2000, had identified Mihdhar and Hazmi at that time attending this planning meeting, and had even identified Walid bin Attash on January 4, 2001 as also having been at this meeting. At that time Walid bin Attash had been identified by the FBI as the mastermind of the Cole bombing. This identification from a photo taken at Kuala Lumpur was the proof to the CIA that Mihdhar and Hazmi had also taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing. Yet even though this information was known by the CIA and later by FBI HQ and by FBI HQ Agent Dina Corsi, her supervisor FBI HQ SSA Rod Middleton and by the Deputy Chief of the FBI ITOS unit and their supervisor Tom Wilshire, this information was not given to the FBI Cole bombing investigators until after the attacks on 9/11 had taken place. This information was given to FBI Agent Ali Soufan, Bongardt’s boss, by the CIA Yemen station on September 12, 2001, obviously too late to prevent the attacks on 9/11, even though many units at the CIA and 50-60 people at the CIA were aware of this information.

Even though Bongardt found out that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US on August 28, 2001, knew they were inside of the US in order to take part in a al Qaeda terrorist attack, and wanted to start an investigation for these terrorists before they had time to carry out this al Qaeda terrorist attack inside of the US, the information that Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing was never give to FBI Agent Steve Bongardt. This was the very information that Bongardt and his team of Cole bombing investigators needed and had been looking for in order to have enough substantial evidence of a Federal crime to be able to start a criminal investigation for these two al Qaeda terrorists.

The big question is why did both the CIA and FBI HQ withhold this critical information from Bongardt and his team? And then why did they shut down his investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi when they knew that this was the one and perhaps only investigation that could have stopped that huge al Qaeda terrorist attack that both agencies knew was just about to take place inside of the US, and kill many Americans?

This goes way beyond negligence in my opinion!

When you saw the WTC towers collapse recently as this tragedy was replayed on September 11, 20012, and knew that thousands of Americans were being murdered right in front of your eyes, it makes you think back to these still unanswered questions, and ask why?

Why did almost 3000 people have to die, when this attack could have been so easily prevented if only the CIA and the FBI HQ had not engaged in criminal behavior to withhold this material evidence from an ongoing FBI criminal investigation in the murder of 17 US sailors, and then shut down the one investigation that could have prevented the attacks on 9/11?

This is about as clear as an answer to “Who neglected what? Specifically?” as you can get.

And to answer the post by TexasJack”

It's like pulling teeth trying to get these truthers to substantiate a claim, isn't it? Then again, there isn't any teeth to their argument to begin with.

As far as the OP is concerned, this is simply not looking at the whole picture. The Bush Administration could have done more, but without actionable intelligence, it's hard to say if anything Bush did would have prevented the attacks. I say they were inevitable, because the failings were mostly of systematic intelligence. The lack of sharing of intelligence wasn't the only problem. What needed to be pushed by the President was a total overhaul of the FBI and CIA.
Don't get me wrong, there were those like NY director John O'Neill who had the vision and saw the real dangers, there just weren't enough of them. If the emphasis was put in its proper place, the attacks would probably would have been avoided. Did anyone notice that it was a rookie agent that finally cracked the case, albeit too late? Unfortunately, it took a catastrophic event to bring up some necessary changes, but as Amy Zegart pointed out in her outstanding book Spying Blind, there are still problems in the system.

The CIA gave the information they had to the FBI HQ agents and managers in the FBI ITOS unit, in fact it had been Tom Wilshire, Deputy Chief of the FBI ITOS unit, who had been a CIA manager at the CIA bin Laden unit and who had been moved over to the FBI ITOS unit over FBI HQ Agent Dina Corsi and FBI HQ SSA Rod Middleton her boss, who had used Corsi and Middleton illegally to shut down FBI Agent Steve Bongardt’s investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi. And Wilshire perhaps had more information on Mihdhar and Hazmi and the Kuala Lumpur meeting than anyone else at either the FBI HQ or CIA. In fact on August 24, 2001 while he and Corsi were engaged in criminal actions to block FBI Agent Bongardt’s investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi, he was in email contact with FBI HQ SA Micheal Maltbie, also in the FBI ITOS unit, and found out that Maltbie with his boss FBI HQ SSA David Frasca at this very time was blocking the criminal FBI investigation of Moussaoui.

How does criminally withhold material information from the FBI criminal investigators on the Cole bombing become mere lack of sharing of information, between the CIA and FBI.

 

[beachnut]

In reply to this question, “...

Kind of off topic and repeating your same old junk.

the CIA and the FBI HQ had not engaged in criminal behavior

You keep repeating this failed conclusion.

The article is about Bush, not the CIA failure, Bush's failure to take action on a non-specific major attack. The CIA never said they would storm cockpits and kill pilots in seconds. Or did they? It hard to imagine someone so depraved they would kill by cutting throats without warning; surprise.

 

[paloalto]

Kind of off topic and repeating your same old junk.

You keep repeating this failed conclusion.

The article is about Bush, not the CIA failure, Bush's failure to take action on a non-specific major attack. The CIA never said they would storm cockpits and kill pilots in seconds. Or did they? It hard to imagine someone so depraved they would kill by cutting throats without warning; surprise.

This was in answer to a direct question raised in this forum, if you can read. And your posts are completely devoid of any facts on 9/11. Your posts are just more of your unsubstantiated uninformed snarky opinion, which never changes.

And as I said before, there is no reason for you to ever get confused with the facts, is there!

But why do you defend the very people in the US government who had deliberately allowed the al Qaeda terrorists to murder almost 3000 of your fellow countrymen on 9/11.


Furthermore this information ties directly to Bush, although from your reply, you clearly cannot see this.

 

[beachnut]

...
But why do you defend the very people in the US government who had deliberately allowed the al Qaeda terrorists to murder almost 3000 of your fellow countrymen on 9/11.

Furthermore this information ties directly to Bush, although from your reply, you clearly cannot see this.

We are the government of the United State, we the people. In your fantasy the FBI and CIA have psychic abilities.

You said...

CIA and the FBI HQ had not engaged in criminal behavior

Total nonsense. You clearly cannot see this.

You have failed to prove the US government deliberately allowed 19 terrorists kill pilots and steal aircraft, and crash them. Big fail, lots of SPAM. Clearly you cannot see this. That is why you keep posting it.

 

[Animal]

We are the government of the United State, we the people. In your fantasy the FBI and CIA have psychic abilities.

You said...
Total nonsense. You clearly cannot see this.

You have failed to prove the US government deliberately allowed 19 terrorists kill pilots and steal aircraft, and crash them. Big fail, lots of SPAM. Clearly you cannot see this. That is why you keep posting it.

Not to mention that since the average police officer / department is not required to protect you from a crime being committed, it is obvious that same lack of obligation would extend to the FBI and CIA

 

[Gamolon]

The FBI had their own credit card data base, called Choicepoint, that had most in not all of the credit card date available. They did not need to get a federal grand jury subpoena to use this data base as much as they needed.

Information on Hazmi's use of his credit card was actually in this data base. It is possible that the same information was there for Mihdhar's credit card also. In any case FBI Agent Robert Fuller requested from FBI HQ Agent Dina Corsi on September 5, 2001 permission to call Saudi Arabian Airlines to get Mihdhar’s credit card number from them since the FBI knew that Mihdhar had flown back to the US on July 4, 2001 on this airline.

Corsi denied him permission to get this credit card number, an action that to today has largely been kept secret and has never been explained by the FBI HQ. This information is only found in DE #650, a FBI summary prepared for internal FBI use only.

Why would she deny him this permission when he had told her that he was getting nowhere in this data base in his search for the whereabouts of Mihdhar and Hazmi. She had also been told by FBI Agent Steve Bongardt just the week before that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US for no other reason than to take part in a horrific al Qaeda terrorists attack!

This makes absolutely no sense, no sense at all.

Why would she deny him permission to get this credited card number when she knew that Mihdhar and Hazmi were about to take part in some horrific al Qaeda terrorist attack inside of the US and knew by denying Fuller permission to get this number his search for Mihdhar and Hazmi would most likely fail?

So basiacally what you did with your post above is regurgitate what is posted here by somone named "rschop":
http://911blogger.com/news/2014-07-27/cia-director-george-tenet-facilitated-911

On August 29, 2001, FBI Agent Robert Fuller, an inexperienced FBI agent, who had never done any intelligence investigation before, was given the intelligence investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi. The EC to start this intelligence investigation was marked "Routine", the absolute lowest level of precedence in spite of the fact that Corsi had been told by FBI Agent Bongardt that it is obvious that these terrorists are inside of the US for no other reason than to carry out a horrific al Qaeda terrorist attack

On August 30, 2001, the CIA sends the photograph of Walid Bin Attash, aka Khallad, to the FBI HQ and requests that it be given to Rod Middleton, Corsi’s supervisor. In spite of the fact that Middleton had also been on the phone in a conference call with Corsi to Bongardt shutting down his investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi, and had been at the meeting with Sherry Sabol, where Sabol told Corsi and Middleton that Bongardt could take part in any investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi. Even though Middleton now also had photographic proof that both Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing, he never calls Bongardt back to allow him to start any investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi. This is two weeks before the attacks on 9/11.

On September 4, 2001, Robert Fuller finally starts on a “Routine” investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi.

September 5, 2001 - Robert Fuller calls FBI Agent Dina Corsi and tells her that he has gotten nowhere in his investigation to locate Mihdhar and Hazmi, and that he has failed to find any information in the FBI data base “Choicepoint” on these terrorists. He requests that she give him permission to contact Saudi Arabian Airlines to get Mihdhar’s credit card number so he will have more to go on in the FBI data base. Corsi refuses to give Fuller permission even though she knows this will likely make his investigation fail to locate Mihdhar and Hazmi. (See DE #650. )

As was already asked, where is the link to this "DE #650" so we can all read for ourselves?

 

[paloalto]

So basiacally what you did with your post above is regurgitate what is posted here by somone named "rschop":
http://911blogger.com/news/2014-07-27/cia-director-george-tenet-facilitated-911


As was already asked, where is the link to this "DE #650" so we can all read for ourselves?

The link to the Moussaoui Defense Exhibits is shown below;.

http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/defense.html

 

[beachnut]

The link to the Moussaoui Defense Exhibits is shown below;.

http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/defense.html

DE, is that the defense trying to say a possible terrorist is not guilty becuase the other terrorists were not stopped, because no one knew what they were doing...

Wow, why would they pick up two guys who they failed to pick up before? Where is the probable cause? Oh, you knew they were going to kill pilots and fake a hijacking. good for you, you can tell the future, but it is delayed until after the fact. You can predict what will happen, but only tell everyone after it happens. What a great tool used to make up fake conclusions.


It is kind of sad they were on watchlists, and not kill them immediately lists. Or the torture them until they tell you a secret plot list.

Wow, a watchlist... what are you guys doing, we are watching

Hey were are watching possible idiots for UBL, and they are meeting with guys who look like more idiots. Gee, they are not doing anything but living and talking to other people.

I find it amazing someone thinks you can stop an attack by taking out two of 19. Where is the logic. Watching terrorists who did nothing but buy tickets to fly - arrest those guys, they bought airline tickets.

How many were on the watchlist with M and H, and was that a no fly list... etc. etc.
You keep posting the same junk, and making BS conclusions.

Are you the internet guy who said you knew the what the attacks were going to be but no one listened to you

http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/defense/950.pdf
what does a watchlist mean for this defense presentation for the 20th insane terrorist who the other 19 left out for good reason - what did being on a watch list in pre 9/11 mean? How many were on the "watchlist".

... what it could have looked like if the FBI got M and H detained. 9/11 without H and M... today two planes hit the WTC complex, and one plane crashed in PA. A third plane was an attempted takeover by three UBL idiots, but passengers, pilots and crew stopped the small knife carrying nuts and they were arrested. FBI says M and H were celebrating the murder of thousands at the WTC complex...

 

[paloalto]

DE, is that the defense trying to say a possible terrorist is not guilty becuase the other terrorists were not stopped, because no one knew what they were doing...

Wow, why would they pick up two guys who they failed to pick up before? Where is the probable cause? Oh, you knew they were going to kill pilots and fake a hijacking. good for you, you can tell the future, but it is delayed until after the fact. You can predict what will happen, but only tell everyone after it happens. What a great tool used to make up fake conclusions.


It is kind of sad they were on watchlists, and not kill them immediately lists. Or the torture them until they tell you a secret plot list.

Wow, a watchlist... what are you guys doing, we are watching

Hey were are watching possible idiots for UBL, and they are meeting with guys who look like more idiots. Gee, they are not doing anything but living and talking to other people.

I find it amazing someone thinks you can stop an attack by taking out two of 19. Where is the logic. Watching terrorists who did nothing but buy tickets to fly - arrest those guys, they bought airline tickets.

How many were on the watchlist with M and H, and was that a no fly list... etc. etc.
You keep posting the same junk, and making BS conclusions.

Are you the internet guy who said you knew the what the attacks were going to be but no one listened to you

http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/defense/950.pdf
what does a watchlist mean for this defense presentation for the 20th insane terrorist who the other 19 left out for good reason - what did being on a watch list in pre 9/11 mean? How many were on the "watchlist".

... what it could have looked like if the FBI got M and H detained. 9/11 without H and M... today two planes hit the WTC complex, and one plane crashed in PA. A third plane was an attempted takeover by three UBL idiots, but passengers, pilots and crew stopped the small knife carrying nuts and they were arrested. FBI says M and H were celebrating the murder of thousands at the WTC complex...

This is from testimony to the Joint Inquiry Committee:

"Senator WYDEN. With respect to al Mihdhar and al-Hazmi, did your agency have the names of those two hijackers prior to September 11, 2001?

Mr. MANNO. No, we did not.

Senator WYDEN. If you had, what steps would have been taken, had you had that information?

Mr. MANNO. Well, prior to 9/11, we had a process, we had a so called watch list which was disseminated to the industry via the security directive process. In fact, a number of the people that we suspected were involved in what we call the Manila plot, the Bojinka plot, as you referred to it, were on that list. Again, what we would—the purpose of that process was to highlight for the air carriers particular individuals, individuals that had ties to terrorist groups and that presented a threat to aviation who should either be denied boarding or should be, if they showed up for the boarding, called to the attention of law enforcement. Had we had information that those two individuals presented a threat to aviation or posed a great danger, we would have put them on that list, and they should have been picked up in the reservation process."

Further:

The FAA had a "no fly list before 9/11'. One of the people on that list was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the master mind of the 9/11 attacks. But by June 12, 2001, according to the 9/11 Commission Report, the CIA knew that KSM was recruiting many al Qaeda terrorists for a terrorist attack inside of the US and knew that these new recruits were being sent to the US in the summer on 2001 in order to link up with then other al Qaeda terrorists already inside of the US to carry out an attack that the CIA already had been warned about.

The CIA already knew that Nawaf al-Hazmi was in the US on March 5, 2000 and that his travel companion, Khalid al-Mihdhar, had a multi-entry visa for the US in order to join Hazmi in a al Qaeda terrorist attack inside of the US.

On August 22, 2001, the news that Khalid al-Mihdhar was also inside of the US went through out the CIA.

So the CIA clearly knew that the terrorists that KSM was recruiting, were being sent into the US to link up with Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi.

So if KSM was already barred from any US flight these, and was to be arrested if he showed up at any US airport, these other al Qaeda terrorists, Khalid al-Mihdyar and Nawaf al-Hazmi who the CIA knew were going to take part in his plan, the Bojinka plot, should also have not only been barred from any flight but also arrested if they showed up at any airport.

Since the credit card numbers used by Mihdhar and Hazmi were also used to buy 10 other tickets for the terrorists on 9/11, the FBI and/or FFA could have given these credit card numbers to the airlines to pickup Mihdhar and Hazmi making reservations for the other terrorists on 9/11. The FBI clearly knew how to get Mihdar's credit card number, since they knew he had flown into the the US on Saudi Arabian Airlines on July 4, 2001, and even had the exact flight number, and Hazmi's credit card information was right in the data base used by the FBI, ChoicePoint.

 

[BStrong]

This is from testimony to the Joint Inquiry Committee:

"Senator WYDEN. With respect to al Mihdhar and al-Hazmi, did your agency have the names of those two hijackers prior to September 11, 2001?

Mr. MANNO. No, we did not.

Senator WYDEN. If you had, what steps would have been taken, had you had that information?

Mr. MANNO. Well, prior to 9/11, we had a process, we had a so called watch list which was disseminated to the industry via the security directive process. In fact, a number of the people that we suspected were involved in what we call the Manila plot, the Bojinka plot, as you referred to it, were on that list. Again, what we would—the purpose of that process was to highlight for the air carriers particular individuals, individuals that had ties to terrorist groups and that presented a threat to aviation who should either be denied boarding or should be, if they showed up for the boarding, called to the attention of law enforcement. Had we had information that those two individuals presented a threat to aviation or posed a great danger, we would have put them on that list, and they should have been picked up in the reservation process."

Further:

The FAA had a "no fly list before 9/11'. One of the people on that list was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the master mind of the 9/11 attacks. But by June 12, 2001, according to the 9/11 Commission Report, the CIA knew that KSM was recruiting many al Qaeda terrorists for a terrorist attack inside of the US and knew that these new recruits were being sent to the US in the summer on 2001 in order to link up with then other al Qaeda terrorists already inside of the US to carry out an attack that the CIA already had been warned about.

The CIA already knew that Nawaf al-Hazmi was in the US on March 5, 2000 and that his travel companion, Khalid al-Mihdhar, had a multi-entry visa for the US in order to join Hazmi in a al Qaeda terrorist attack inside of the US.

On August 22, 2001, the news that Khalid al-Mihdhar was also inside of the US went through out the CIA.

So the CIA clearly knew that the terrorists that KSM was recruiting, were being sent into the US to link up with Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi.

So if KSM was already barred from any US flight these, and was to be arrested if he showed up at any US airport, these other al Qaeda terrorists, Khalid al-Mihdyar and Nawaf al-Hazmi who the CIA knew were going to take part in his plan, the Bojinka plot, should also have not only been barred from any flight but also arrested if they showed up at any airport.

Since the credit card numbers used by Mihdhar and Hazmi were also used to buy 10 other tickets for the terrorists on 9/11, the FBI and/or FFA could have given these credit card numbers to the airlines to pickup Mihdhar and Hazmi making reservations for the other terrorists on 9/11. The FBI clearly knew how to get Mihdar's credit card number, since they knew he had flown into the the US on Saudi Arabian Airlines on July 4, 2001, and even had the exact flight number, and Hazmi's credit card information was right in the data base used by the FBI, ChoicePoint.

I've read your posts on this subject, and completely aside from any discussion about your position on the pre-9/11 intelligence and the use of same.

From my pov as a retired LEO, your idea of what constitutes probable cause for arrest isn't based in reality, at least as it relates to pre-9/11 sop.

Basically, from federal LE agencies on down, unless there was an existing arrest warrant or a criminal offense was committed in an officer's presence you couldn't effect an arrest.

In cases where probable cause was questionable, including possible terrorist activity, you weren't going to get a warrant signed. Observation and intelligence gathering? even electronic surveillance warrants could be problematic without rock solid facts that someone felt strongly enough to take to a judge.

In my little corner of the universe (firearms forensics etc.) I can't tell you how many cases over the years I passed along to ATF involving violations of the National Firearms Act or the Gun Control Act of 1968.

They never took action in one single instance - cases where our agency had federal felony violation firearms in custody, they had no interest. If a local agency developed intell. of specific activities that agency honchos had an immediate interest in (Drugs, counterfeiting, certain activities by certain gangs) they might jump in if the planets were aligned, but like a DEA guy told me "You bring in a heroin trafficking case involving the Mexicans when the boss is looking at meth from the OMG's, (outlaw motorcycle gangs) you get in at the end of the line."

I'm not going to argue your talking points.

The only thing I'll say is that your perception of the ease of arresting individuals based on what your asserting isn't based in reality.