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Favorite Fantasy Series (High or Low)?

Donaldson has a Masters in English, and an inordinate fondness for archaisms. That doesn't bother me, as I have an inordinate fondness for archaisms. Having read a considerable amount of both Donaldson and Goodkind, I cannot imagine a world where Goodkind at his best could ever be considered better than Donaldson at his worst. While Donaldson's characters may be reprehensible at times, or exhibit epic levels of angst; at least they're reasonably realistic, and character dialog matches the characters' origins and personalities. He's a good storyteller, and can create a consistent world that operates on consistent principles; instead of pulling ridiculous plot devices out of his various orificies as Goodkind is so fond of doing.

And as grim and brutal and angsty and impenetrable as Donaldson's prose can get, at least it is blissfully free of demonic chickens.

I don't know . . . I may have been the only person who never noticed the rape in Lord Foul's Bane. Probably because I found the prolonged voyage Covenant took with, as I recall, Stonehart Foamfollower down an endless river to get to the next settlement -- if they're so far scattered how does any commerce go on at all?

And I don't know about you, but if I saw a man screaming "This isn't real! It's only a dream!" I just might doubt him a moment later when he claims to be the Hero Who Will Save the World . . .

[And I'm leaving out his plaint of being outcast unclean . . ..]
 
And now for something completely different.......................
Orks with rifles.
OK, it's fan-fic (and crossover fan-fic at that) but I like it and think it should be shared.
 
I'm also inordinately fond of DL. The writing can't compare to something like Game of Thrones, and has obvious nods to Tolkien and Norse myth and even magical artifacts nicked from Mormon mythology (platinum plates? Magic glasses?)

That said, it has some of the best characters ever.

Absolutely yes...the Annotated Chronicles go into this a bit. Tracy Hickman, one of the authors, is a devout Mormon. (Also, I recall Mishakal stands in for the angel Moroni.)

I would say that Kitiara is a superb villain...it's not easy to make a vicious sociopath a likable character, but Weis & Hickman managed.
 
Absolutely. And I agree- I don't hold DL up as a literary masterpiece by any stretch. It did help popularise fantasy however. Oh and I only ever read the ones by Weis and/or Hickman.

You do yourself a disservice! Some of the other books are superb. Offhand, The Doom Brigade & Draconian Measures (both by Don Perrin & Margaret Weis) are great. Flint, The King (Mary Kirchoff and Doug Niles) was alternately sobering and hilarious. Darkness & Light (Paul Thompsen & Tonya Carter) was superb, and Dark Heart (Tina Daniell) was pretty good. (Both feature Kitiara.)
 
I would say that Kitiara is a superb villain...it's not easy to make a vicious sociopath a likable character, but Weis & Hickman managed.

Yup, Kit is an amazingly 3-dimensional antagonist, and also timeless in that you could drop her into any fiction setting with very minor changes and have her make any protagonist's life miserable.

Some of the other books are superb. Offhand, The Doom Brigade & Draconian Measures (both by Don Perrin & Margaret Weis) are great. Flint, The King (Mary Kirchoff and Doug Niles) was alternately sobering and hilarious. Darkness & Light (Paul Thompsen & Tonya Carter) was superb, and Dark Heart (Tina Daniell) was pretty good. (Both feature Kitiara.)

I like the Weis/Perrin draconian series a lot. Kang and Slith are a great team. IMO, you also can't go too far wrong with DL written by Richard A. Knaak or by Chris Pierson.
 
Wizards of Eathsea by Ursula Le Guin

_

I copped it because I read Harry Potter was supposed to have ripped it off. I liked the Harry Potter books for what they are, and I like even more how they got a lot of kids and teenagers to want to read something... but I liked these books a LOT more.

Sparrowhawk was a lot more interesting hero than Harry, and without spoiling anything for anybody, the central battle in both books is kind of similar, but in one book Le Guin writes about that battle far far more movingly and powerfully than JK Rowling could in 7 (massive) books.

_

Oh, and I've read the chronicles of Thomas Covenant also which I see mentioned above... I think in some ways they are great books - but also to be fair Thomas is kind of detestable individual (maybe being a leper emotionally as well as physically will do that for you...)
 
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Wizards of Eathsea by Ursula Le Guin
(snip)
Sparrowhawk was a lot more interesting hero than Harry, and without spoiling anything for anybody, the central battle in both books is kind of similar, but in one book Le Guin writes about that battle far far more movingly and powerfully than JK Rowling could in 7 (massive) books.
Le Guin has a very emotive writing style for how spare her language is. One of my absolute favorites. The original Earthsea trilogy is amazing work, and not nearly as appreciated as it should be. The fourth volume, Tehanu, was written much later, and tends to suffer a bit from being more agenda-driven; but is still well worth reading IMO.

Oh, and I've read the chronicles of Thomas Covenant also which I see mentioned above... I think in some ways they are great books - but also to be fair Thomas is kind of detestable individual (maybe being a leper emotionally as well as physically will do that for you...)
Well, that's sort of the point of the character. Covenant was intended to be unsympathetic at first. He's commonly referred to as an anti-hero, but that's not entirely accurate IMO, as there is nothing particularly heroic about him for most of the original trilogy (and he's only a secondary player in the rest of the series). In fact, he shades more toward villain protagonist than anti-hero at the beginning, only moving into more of an anti-hero role in the last act of the third book, and most of the heroics are done by those around him, who are unintentionally inspired by him. It's that unwilling redemption that is the theme of his character.
 
Yeah, the first book (a Wizard of Earthsea) to me was beautifully written. And there is a system of magic that makes sense - in a narrative way.

I dont know if it counts as fantasy, but I'm not sure what else it would be, but I was also going to mention the Thursday Next books. They are maybe more intended to be funny than outright fantasy, but Aornis Hades is my favourite villain ever I think
 
Yeah, the first book (a Wizard of Earthsea) to me was beautifully written. And there is a system of magic that makes sense - in a narrative way.
Not only that, but its quite refreshing the way she keeps it variable and unpredictable, while still effective. Avoiding falling into the scientific magic trope, where it's just another fundamental force; the wish-granting magic trope, where magic is just a manifestation of wish-fulfillment; or the convenient plot device trope.
 
You might have gathered that Richard Morgan is pretty full on and quite possibly deserves a prize for the least erotic writing about the most different types of sex of the year.

Haha, I imagined that would go to Abercrombie for [minor First Law spoiler]
the sex scene between Ferro and Logan. Hilarious and thoroughly unerotic. :newlol


Have I mentioned that I don't like Piers Anthony's books?
I don't like misogyny in books
I'm with you. I only ever read one Anthony book and it was so awful, I literally started skimming it and skipping ahead to finish it. And I've read my share of awful novels, but I dare say that's the only one I've actually had to skip ahead because it was so horrible. And then I learned about the whole pedophilia thing. How does this guy still get published? Ugh.

That's the only kind of face he has. Smiling is for chumps collectivist death choosers.
FTFY :D


Having read the spoilered scene, I think that might come a close second.

Actually, I think A Land Fit for Heroes is *slightly* more upbeat than the First Law Trilogy.

Read it when you need a similar fix...
 
You have certainly led a fortunate literary life, then. I'm reading it now, and while there are a few awkward spots--the whole bit with "silent thunder" for example--overall it's an entertaining if derivative work. It is certainly nowhere near as bad as the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, for example.

That's interesting. As for the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the books that I've read (the first six) I think overall are reasonably good. However, there is a definite learning curve for the author. The first book is rough, but the first book of the second trilogy (4th book) is quite different. In fact, the 4th and 5th books are so different in style that it's almost like a different author. However, I did notice that the style came closer to the first trilogy in the 6th book. One thing I did find interesting was his consistent conflict. He actually managed to transfer conflict across the first four books which is something I've never seen before.

As for Wizards First Rule, I read all eleven books up to Confessor, but I'm not seeing any learning curve. The plots and characters are slapped together with duck tape and baling wire. His concept of his own world becomes so convoluted that it's impossible to believe that it makes sense even to Goodkind. Maybe that is why he seems to have trouble keeping things straight. He does contradict himself many times during the series. He resorts to plot shortcuts as well as begging both the plot and characters. I've noticed that he frequently resorts to melodrama and cynicism instead of imagination or consistency. From the pessimism of the series, one would never guess that Goodkind sold the first book for $40,000.

I would say that the political view is Machiavellian and oligarchical. It's hard for me to say that his economic system is Randian. It seems to me to be more anti-fantasy socialism. That is, Goodkind's description of a socially oriented economic system is both childish and absurd. It's more like a parody of an economic system. So, when he gives his alternative system, he is perhaps not realizing that he merely moved back to the center to a normal system. Perhaps he intended this to represent Rand in some way but I wasn't able to detect anything peculiar to Rand.

I'm not sure if I would describe Goodkind's series as the worst I've ever read. The Elfstones of Shannara series was also pretty bad in terms of lack of creativity and lack of consistency. I read six of the series up to Elf Queen of Shannara. I have read quite a few of R.A. Salvatore's books. I read the first 19 books plus the Hunter's Blades Trilogy, Servant of the Shard, and The Pirate King. I guess that would be 24 books. His work is obviously highly derivative of Tolkien and TSR Hobbies. He does not maintain consistency over all 24 books. I read Weis and Hickman's Chronicles and Legends trilogies.
 
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Well, that's sort of the point of the character. Covenant was intended to be unsympathetic at first.

You mean after he rapes an innocent, teenage girl? Yes, that makes him rather unsympathetic. And when others do not criticize him, it seems to make his self-loathing worse. For example, his daughter by rape doesn't blame him at all.

He's commonly referred to as an anti-hero, but that's not entirely accurate IMO, as there is nothing particularly heroic about him for most of the original trilogy (and he's only a secondary player in the rest of the series). In fact, he shades more toward villain protagonist than anti-hero at the beginning,

That's not quite accurate. Remember that he saved the little girl. And, it was Kevin Landwaster who did the Ritual of Desecration. How do you forget the Demondim who spawned both the evil Ur-viles and the good Waynhim? People are frequently shown as both good and bad.

only moving into more of an anti-hero role in the last act of the third book, and most of the heroics are done by those around him, who are unintentionally inspired by him. It's that unwilling redemption that is the theme of his character.

I'm not sure that's accurate. I assume you are referring to when Thomas turns down the magic blade and instead sticks it into the stone table. Many people in the book succeed by self-sacrifice. Thomas is unusual in that he does not die and people don't blame him for what he does even when his efforts make things worse. Also, it isn't until the second trilogy that he begins to understand the nature of the wild magic. He is also not the only one who is reluctant to take responsibility.
 
I don't know about "series"; but some of my favorites include:
Tolkien of course
T.H.White.. The Once And Future King
Fritz Lieber. The Fafherd and Gray Mouser stories
Pohl Anderson.. Several titles.. Three Hearts and Three Lions sticks out
Jack Vance... The Dying Earth stories, Cudgel the Clever, Mazirian the Magician... Great stuff.
E.R.R. Edison...The Worm Oroborous. A great fantasy, written in essentially Shakespearean English. Ignore the little prelude part.
Roger Zelazney... The Amber stories.
Finally, I'd include Julian May's Pleistocene Exile stories. Not REALLY fantasy, since there's a strong science-fiction underpinning, but since we have "magic" in the form of metapsychic powers and aliens who seem to mimic Celtic gods and wee folk....Quite a ride.
Three Hearts and Three Lions has been my favorite fantasy /SF book since the first of the many times I have read it..the year it was published.....
 
Gene Wolfe, The Book of the New Sun (a quadrology), and its sequel, The Urth of the New Sun.

Lloyd Alexander, The First Two Lives of Lukas Kasha. One of the best fantasy novellas I have ever read. If Goodkind could tell a story half as well, or Jordan half as succinctly, nobody would complain about either of them.

Barbara Hambly, The Time of the Dark, and its sequels. I have fond memories of this trilogy, but I haven't actually read it since I was a teenager.

I feel like a lot of Neal Stephenson's work should be counted as fantasy--Snow Crash and The Diamond Age, surely, are fantasy in spirit, as much as they are sci-fi.
 
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And, the The Wrinkle in Time and it's sequels which make up a tetralogy and, thus, a series. Which re:3H&3L is quite unfortunate...............(as it had no sequels).
 
Not a series, but John M. Ford's "The Dragon Waiting". Great alternate medieval world and interesting characters. I re-read it frequently.
 
That's not quite accurate. Remember that he saved the little girl. And, it was Kevin Landwaster who did the Ritual of Desecration. How do you forget the Demondim who spawned both the evil Ur-viles and the good Waynhim? People are frequently shown as both good and bad.
Yes, but that had nothing to do with the Land. The Ritual of Desecration was an act of desperation, brought about by despair in extremis. Part of the theme of the series is actually similar to that of Lord of the Ring, that is, resisting the counsels of despair. Yes, they're shows as good and bad; but only the Ur-Viles trod the same path of unwilling redemption that Covenant does (and then only through the course of the entire series). The Demondim and Cavewights are never shown as anything other than irretrievably fallen (admittely, I've yet to finish the final book in the series, so I don't know if that's entirely true), and the Demondim created the Ur-Viles and Waynhym before they fully succumb to the influence of the Ravers. Only the Viles themselves demonstrate the possibility of self-redemption; and they go extinct before they can fulfill that possibility.

I'm not sure that's accurate. I assume you are referring to when Thomas turns down the magic blade and instead sticks it into the stone table. Many people in the book succeed by self-sacrifice. Thomas is unusual in that he does not die and people don't blame him for what he does even when his efforts make things worse. Also, it isn't until the second trilogy that he begins to understand the nature of the wild magic. He is also not the only one who is reluctant to take responsibility.
I'm referring to his refusal to acknowledge the existence of the land and refusal to engage in the same sort of self-sacrifice he seem exemplified around him; and indeed his rejection of that sacrifice by others as it applies to him. The entire first book he spends refusing to acknowledge the reality or importance of the Land, preferring to see it as a pathological state of his own mind; as manifest in his "deal" with whatever forces he believes are responsible in order to remain completely uninvolved, as illustrated in his rejection of the gift of the Ranyhyn. Saving the girl is a "pet the dog" moment, and the beginning of his redemption; but even so he never fully acknowledges the reality of the land until forced to by Hile Troy, and never really accepts the necessity of his involvement in it until well into the third book.

And his only heroic act in the Land is his final confrontation with the Despiser; which itself would not have been possible without the continuing heroic sacrifices of Atiaran, Mhoram and Saltheart Foamfollower, Hile Troy, among others. He spends the majority of the first trilogy absorbed in the pain he's caused; and refusing to acknowledge any chance of heroic redemption. Even his final confrontation would have failed without Foamfollower's self-sacrifice; and makes it clear that the prophesy of the Pure One applied to the giant, not to Convenant (although there's a thread in the Final Chronicles which may change this; again, I still haven't finished it, so I'm not sure).

And after that, he spends the majority of the Second Chronicles being pretty much ineffectual due to the venom; but since it's essentially Linden's story and the start of her redemption, that's pretty much expected.
 
Yes, but that had nothing to do with the Land.

It doesn't matter that it had nothing to do with the land; it is the same character.

The Ritual of Desecration was an act of desperation, brought about by despair in extremis.

The reason doesn't matter. What Kevin did was both good and bad.

but only the Ur-Viles trod the same path of unwilling redemption that Covenant does

That's not accurate at all. Thomas is the unbeliever. I suppose you could compare this to something like the AA notion of believing in something greater than yourself. The Ur-viles don't have a problem with belief; they are simply evil.

The Demondim and Cavewights are never shown as anything other than irretrievably fallen

Fallen in what way? They were described as self loathing because they couldn't see.

I'm referring to his refusal to acknowledge the existence of the land

This behavior is not surprising in the character. It is also not really something you can blame the character for. Do you not recall that he tries over and over to test the reality of the Land and fails each time?

Saving the girl is a "pet the dog" moment

I don't know what you mean by that phrase. What does saving a life have to do with petting a dog?

and the beginning of his redemption

No. There is no redemption. There is only service and acceptance. This theme is made several times in the book.

but even so he never fully acknowledges the reality of the land until forced to by Hile Troy, and never really accepts the necessity of his involvement in it until well into the third book.

I disagree. In the 3rd book, he seems to acknowledge that the Land is real. However, I don't see the notion that he sees himself as necessary until the second trilogy when he repeats the phrase, "you are the wild magic."

And his only heroic act in the Land is his final confrontation with the Despiser

Even his final confrontation would have failed without Foamfollower's self-sacrifice

You seem confused. His final confrontation with the Despiser is in book 6 whereas Foamfollower dies in the first trilogy.

And after that, he spends the majority of the Second Chronicles being pretty much ineffectual due to the venom; but since it's essentially Linden's story and the start of her redemption, that's pretty much expected.

That's completely false.
 
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The reason doesn't matter. What Kevin did was both good and bad.
Um, no, that's kind of the point of the thing. What Kevin did was bad; but it was an act of extreme desperation. He gave in to despair. This is one of the central themes of the entire series.

That's not accurate at all. Thomas is the unbeliever. I suppose you could compare this to something like the AA notion of believing in something greater than yourself. The Ur-viles don't have a problem with belief; they are simply evil.
That is either a gross misrepresentation or complete ignorance. The Ur-Viles are not simply evil, but are far more complex than that. You clearly haven't read much beyond the First Chronicles, since the Second Chronicles begins their re-evaluation of their Weird, and the start of their redemption; which comes into culmination in the Final Chronicles. Their problem is entirely one of belief and interpretation.

Fallen in what way? They were described as self loathing because they couldn't see.
This is not even remotely close to accurate. They are describes as self-loathing due to the inheritance of their nature from their predecessors, and the influence of the Ravers. The Viles turn to loathe themselves because of their incorporeal nature and separation from the world, and their obsession with introspection; which allows the Ravers to poison their minds and convince them their unformed and detached beings are flaws rather than simply their own nature. The Demondim inherit their makers' nature; and are vulnerable to the same lies. Combined with the fact that they are only able to achieve corporeal presence through Possession (treated throughout the series as an unalloyed evil), specifically possession of the dead. Like the Viles' detachment, this effectively locks them into self-loathing and despair.

The Ur-Viles and Waynhim, being constructs, are also separate from the natural world of the Land, and through that are also influenced by the Ravers; though being less potent beings than their predecessors, are thereby less vulnerable (thus fitting into the central theme of power and guilt). Though essentially the same beings, they are more able to choose how to respond to their self-loathing; with the Waynhim choosing to redeem themselves in service; and the Ur-Vile to embrace destruction at first, then later changing their path to one more approximating that of the Waynhim.

In all three cases, the beings did not start out as evil. They started out as essentially neutral, but unnatural. It is their lack of connection to the natural material world that is the seed if their despair and descent into self-loathing via the poisonous influence of the Ravers. Each creation was intended to redeem this state by creating a link to the natural material world. That this fails repeatedly is due to the incompleteness of their attempts, a lack of understanding of the earth and Earthpower, and again, the influence of the Ravers. It is the redemption of the Ur-Viles that they are finally able to throw off this influence and dedicate themselves to the service of the Chosen to the degree that their Weird allows; much as their Waynhim cousins did.

This behavior is not surprising in the character. It is also not really something you can blame the character for. Do you not recall that he tries over and over to test the reality of the Land and fails each time?
It's not his refusal to acknowledge the physical reality of the land that's the problem; it's his refusal to accept it's reality and importance for him that is the base of his problems in the first two books, and the problems he causes because of that.

I don't know what you mean by that phrase. What does saving a life have to do with petting a dog?
It's an idiom referring to a defining act of goodness by someone who up to then had expressed only some form of badness or detachment. It's commonly used as a contrast to "kick the dog".

No. There is no redemption. There is only service and acceptance. This theme is made several times in the book.
You're clearly not reading the entire thing. I strongly recommend you read the entire series (which was finally completed last October), since you are missing some of the most crucial themes underlying the entire worl.

I disagree. In the 3rd book, he seems to acknowledge that the Land is real. However, I don't see the notion that he sees himself as necessary until the second trilogy when he repeats the phrase, "you are the wild magic."
This is quite clear in his confrontation with Lord Foul at the end of the first book. I don't know how to explain it to make it any more clear.

You seem confused. His final confrontation with the Despiser is in book 6 whereas Foamfollower dies in the first trilogy.
You're either misremembering or not understanding. Each Chronicles concludes with a confrontation, none of which is truly final until the end of the Final Chronicles. The concluding confrontation in the First Chronicles is the apotheosis of his search for redemption; his acceptance of the Land as important for him and release from his own mental prison. The confrontation at the end of the Second Chronicles is his acceptance of his importance to others besides himself, and epitomizes his own self-sacrifice -- something he had hitherto avoided -- both for the people of the Land, and for Linden. The Final Chronicles I'll let you read for yourself, since you clearly haven't.

That's completely false.
Erm, no it's not; it's the world of the author himself. Can you explain why you think it's false, or is this just a bare assertion you can't support.
 
<snip. The Elfstones of Shannara series was also pretty bad in terms of lack of creativity and lack of consistency. I read six of the series up to Elf Queen of Shannara. <also snip>
I'd forgotten about those. I tried to read a couple but they were bad. Make Adams' Horseclans look good,
And apparently Elfstones will be gracing US television screens later this year.:rolleyes:
 

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