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Fat loss confusion

Well, hell...I'm way smaller now, but the weight won't seem to go below 190 pounds.

What's wrong with 190 pounds?

I think I look skinny and healthy-ish.

Your shirt is baggy so we can't see your gut, but the rest of you suggest you're not carrying a lot of fat. If you try to cut more weight you're likely to lose muscle, and what's the point of that? That doesn't actually look better, and it isn't even healthier.
 
What really pulls off the fat for me is eating heartily (all the veggies and fish you want), but living in a cold environment. Your body will burn fat to keep you warm. Since you are in Hawaii, that probably won't work well. So instead maybe try surfing surfing surfing all the time. Not exactly "cold" but water will pull off core heat and your body will burn fat to replace it.

I don't surf, but when I lived in Florida I went swimming in the ocean twice a day. (once before work before dawn and once after work at dusk) Took off 30 pounds in 30 days and I actually was eating more if anything and not even really exercising hard at all. Just slowly swimming around for aquarium fish to catch.
 
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Your shirt is baggy so we can't see your gut, but the rest of you suggest you're not carrying a lot of fat.

Even that is a good sign, this shirt is an XL, when I started this an XXXL was visibly tight around my stomach
 
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So instead maybe try surfing surfing surfing all the time.

I don't know about surfing (too many megatubbies out surfing) but bodysurfing sure got my initial size down. And its like you said, doesn't even feel like exercising and before you know it, you really burned a lot and feel better

My current workout is 25 of each:

Fork Glide to walk around to half barspin (like in the video)
Fire Hydrant
Boomerang with feet in the air until the end
Boomerang one foot on front page after 180
180 bunnyhop to 180 half cab
360 bunnyhop
Megaspin
Footplant Tailwhip
Hang 5
Steamroller in circles
Funky Chicken

Then go ride the skatepark for fun
 
I see so many conflicting sources of info out there. I have been trying to live by what I see on the JREF so often as: losing weight means calories out>calories in, but it doesn't seem to be that simple.


No, it really isn't that simple. In fact, the reality is far more complicated, and far more difficult, than the general "accepted wisdom" even in the medical community, particularly in the long term.

Diet and exercise alone are no cure for obesity, experts say

Since I know that people here typically fail to actually follow documentation links in articles like the above (particularly with it refutes their pet theories), here is their link to the article published in The Lancet.

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587(15)00009-1/abstract
 
No, it really isn't that simple. In fact, the reality is far more complicated, and far more difficult, than the general "accepted wisdom" even in the medical community, particularly in the long term.

Diet and exercise alone are no cure for obesity, experts say

Since I know that people here typically fail to actually follow documentation links in articles like the above (particularly with it refutes their pet theories), here is their link to the article published in The Lancet.

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587(15)00009-1/abstract

Firstly, I'm too cheap to pay $31.50 for the article. Reading what's there, is there any conflict to the idea that physiological factors play a factor in a person's eating habits, or about the omnipresence of food and food advertising in our culture?

I don't think anyone doubts that there are all sorts of factors which can affect hunger levels, satiety response, and the like. Or that there are other issues which can drive someone to eat.

Secondly, you're flirting with Million Dollar Challenge territory here. The idea that someone can gain fat while on a caloric deficit is pure woo.
 
No, it really isn't that simple. In fact, the reality is far more complicated, and far more difficult, than the general "accepted wisdom" even in the medical community, particularly in the long term.

Diet and exercise alone are no cure for obesity, experts say

It is that simple, it's just not that easy. Calories in < calories out will indeed lead to weight loss, and anyone who eats appropriately and exercises enough will lose weight. Nothing in that link contests that.

What the link contests is people's ability to eat appropriately and exercise enough. That part can get quite complex in terms of hormonal signaling, appetite, energy levels, etc. And all of that makes weight loss very hard to achieve because fat people want to eat and they don't want to exercise. And when they do exercise, they want to eat even more, making a calorie deficit very hard to achieve. Telling people what they need to do isn't enough to get them to do it. But what they need to do is indeed simply eat less and exercise more, and IF they can do that consistently (most of them cannot), then they will indeed lose weight.

ETA:
Oh, and very few doctors actually know much about how to exercise, which is a major problem.
 
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No, it really isn't that simple. In fact, the reality is far more complicated, and far more difficult, than the general "accepted wisdom" even in the medical community, particularly in the long term.

Diet and exercise alone are no cure for obesity, experts say

Since I know that people here typically fail to actually follow documentation links in articles like the above (particularly with it refutes their pet theories), here is their link to the article published in The Lancet.

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587(15)00009-1/abstract

Hm:

OR THE RECORD

Feb. 17, 1:23 p.m.: An earlier version of this story referred to Christopher N. Ochner as a weight management physician. He is trained as a clinical psychologist, not a physician. His research focuses on obesity prevention and treatment for adolescents.

An news story giving monopoly to one psychologist's view on biology? And a "Comment" in a journal? Sounds legit.
 
ETA:
Oh, and very few doctors actually know much about how to exercise, which is a major problem.

I think I lucked out in that the doctor who has been helping me has an extremely good understanding of freestyle BMX and was able to suggest routines that seemed to really target what I needed

This is from the other day

maunawili.jpg

https://www.dropbox.com/s/211k5gv7kgfrvqa/maunawili.jpg?dl=0
 
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What the link contests is people's ability to eat appropriately and exercise enough. That part can get quite complex in terms of hormonal signaling, appetite, energy levels, etc. And all of that makes weight loss very hard to achieve because fat people want to eat and they don't want to exercise. And when they do exercise, they want to eat even more, making a calorie deficit very hard to achieve.

And they study groups of people who are already obese. Results are often presented in a way that implies that once you're ten pounds over your target weight, it's all over and you will continue gaining weight for the rest of your life. It's a bit like studying alcoholics and concluding that it's impossible for humans to control alcohol consumption. Lots of people can gain and lose weight at will within a reasonable range, and maintain a high level of fitness with just a little motivation and without feeling tortured.
 
Oh, and very few doctors actually know much about how to exercise, which is a major problem.

Not just doctors, but people in general. Study after study shows that strength training is much more effective for losing weight than aerobic training. Most people think "You run to lose weight."
 
Not just doctors, but people in general.

Sure, but people expect doctors to know how to get healthy, and that expectation is misplaced.

Study after study shows that strength training is much more effective for losing weight than aerobic training. Most people think "You run to lose weight."

At least the studies are probably getting that one right. On a lot of exercise topics, the studies are just complete crap.
http://startingstrength.com/site/article/the_problem_with_exercise_science#.Vo6Z6lKuuUk

First, a faculty with no experience in strength training has no idea about how to write a curriculum to teach it. They quite literally don’t know what they don’t know. They were quite likely hired for their publishing credentials, not their strength training chops.
...
Second, a faculty who must publish but who lack any practical experience in strength training should stick to topics other than strength training. Often they don’t. Such a situation gives rise to volumes of utterly stupid, pointless research that nonetheless receives approval from review committees made up of the same people (most of whom actually know each other), and which subsequently becomes ensconced in the hallowed halls of The Literature.

The link then goes on to describe some example scholarly exercise articles and why they're garbage.
 
This one was especially hilarious "Research suggests that the squat, regardless of technique variation, produces minimal activity in the hamstring muscles".
 
No, it really isn't that simple. In fact, the reality is far more complicated, and far more difficult, than the general "accepted wisdom" even in the medical community, particularly in the long term.

Diet and exercise alone are no cure for obesity, experts say

Since I know that people here typically fail to actually follow documentation links in articles like the above (particularly with it refutes their pet theories), here is their link to the article published in The Lancet.

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587(15)00009-1/abstract

I read the Lancet paper (it's free if you are registered as a guest).

You're splitting hairs.

Weight loss IS as simple as CI<CO. That's what makes you lose weight.

But yes, psychologically, the motivation to lose weight in the obese is complicated by adaptive thermogenesis, leptin, etc as the paper says, as well as the obesogenic environment.
 
I read the Lancet paper (it's free if you are registered as a guest).

You're splitting hairs.

Weight loss IS as simple as CI<CO. That's what makes you lose weight.

But yes, psychologically, the motivation to lose weight in the obese is complicated by adaptive thermogenesis, leptin, etc as the paper says, as well as the obesogenic environment.

And the leptin hypothesis is under heavy fire now, too.

I fear recycling an old thread, but there's probably a teminology/semantics mismatch happening when people use expressions like "just eat fewer calories than you expend" - the 'just' part leads to quibbling. Obviously nothing is that simple. "to win at chess just put your opponent's king into checkmate." - yeah, technically true, but incomplete information. There's more to it, sure, but you can't win a chess game without putting your opponent's king into checkmate. (ETA: alright, there's a point system for stalemates, but let's not get bogged down in the analogy)

One thing I'd like to contribute to the thread is that the evidence seems to strongly suggest that exercise doesn't play an important role in weight loss. It's still very important for overall health and life quality goals - so I'm a strong advocate for exercise - but I think it needs to be removed from the list of 'weight loss' or 'weight management' strategies.

At least not without a shovelful of additional education. Just as a concrete example: 'refuelling,' 'recovery' &c. All the facilities I worked in had concessions, snack machines, or even staffed juice bars that sold calorie dense liquid post-workout 'sports' drinks whose energy content far exceeded the strength workout's benefits (including muscle repair and BMR bump). Thanks to marketing science, these are positioned in the time and location most likely to intercept thirst and low blood sugar, ripe for bingeing.

This is just as much about the obesogenic environment as a weakness of strength training per se, but the patron has to be educated about the risk of net caloric surplus from 'refuelling' mythology for there to be a ghost of a chance that they will stick with water.

This predictable 'fat gain follows increased - but still moderate - exercise' effect appears paradoxical, but has credible mechanical explanations in terms of immediate post-workout calorie bingeing and long-term disproportionately increased appetite. So many independent studies show this effect that its lack of distribution to the public can only be explained through sheer disbelief ("It doesn't seem intuitive, the studies must be wrong.") and perhaps some cognitive dissonance ("If this is true, than my years of efforts to fight childhood obesity by advocating increased physical activity in children have all been misguided and perhaps counterproductive." or "If this is true, then my career as a fitness instructor may be contributing to obesity rather than being part of the solution.")
 
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One thing I'd like to contribute to the thread is that the evidence seems to strongly suggest that exercise doesn't play an important role in weight loss. It's still very important for overall health and life quality goals - so I'm a strong advocate for exercise - but I think it needs to be removed from the list of 'weight loss' or 'weight management' strategies.

Good post, blutoski, and I'll just comment on this bit.

That's my approach too.

I've lost 28 kg since April 2015. I've used My Fitness Pal which made calorie-counting easy.

I've also increased my walking from a sedentary 3,000 steps a day to around 18,000 currently, and that now includes running.

I do not consider that I've lost weight from "eating less and moving more".

The weight loss was from calorie-counting, pure and simple.

I used Apple Health and Fitbit to track my exercise and that exercise earned me extra calories to eat. I consider the exercise a way to eat more to fuel that exercise. There are all sorts of horror stories about people not eating back their exercise calories, and that's not going to happen to me.

The weight loss came from eating at a calorie deficit set in My Fitness Pal.

There are plenty of people at MFP who lose weight without doing any extra exercise.

The motto goes, "CICO for weight loss, exercise for health".
 
I'm now confused again, about exercise not being important to it. In order to sustain the level of activity that moved me from 195 to 185, my calorie count went up from 2200 calories a day to 4400 calories a day. I'm eating twice as much, but still losing weight. One hour before the skatepark, 500 calories of that are carbs.

Maybe exercise isnt that important generally, but in my case it sure seems to be
 
I'm now confused again, about exercise not being important to it. In order to sustain the level of activity that moved me from 195 to 185, my calorie count went up from 2200 calories a day to 4400 calories a day. I'm eating twice as much, but still losing weight. One hour before the skatepark, 500 calories of that are carbs.

Maybe exercise isnt that important generally, but in my case it sure seems to be

Of course it's important, if you are going to succeed. The problem is that most people who try, fail.
 
I'm now confused again, about exercise not being important to it. In order to sustain the level of activity that moved me from 195 to 185, my calorie count went up from 2200 calories a day to 4400 calories a day. I'm eating twice as much, but still losing weight. One hour before the skatepark, 500 calories of that are carbs.

Maybe exercise isnt that important generally, but in my case it sure seems to be

When they say "exercise", they probably mean a half hour of jogging or 300 Calories burned, more than made up for by "I exercised today, so I can eat this 600 Calorie chocolate thingy." For someone your size, eating 4400 mostly clean Calories per day might take some effort, especially if you are used to eating less. The last time I moved across the country, I loaded 8,000 pounds of belongings out the door and up a ramp into a moving truck in two days, then unloaded about half in one day (others helped for the other half) with a day of rest (driving) in between. You can't eat your way out of that much activity. I was in good shape to begin with, and lost eight pounds (real, long-term loss).
 
I'm now confused again, about exercise not being important to it. In order to sustain the level of activity that moved me from 195 to 185, my calorie count went up from 2200 calories a day to 4400 calories a day. I'm eating twice as much, but still losing weight. One hour before the skatepark, 500 calories of that are carbs.

Maybe exercise isnt that important generally, but in my case it sure seems to be

You would only be losing weight if you are eating less calories than you burn, which you must be.

You're doing really well!
 

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