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Fat Logic

Meaning...what? Obesity is inherited? It's triggered?
No mother ..... Who knows what all the underlying causes are?

The point is, the evidence overwhelmingly supports the conclusion, it's not willpower. That is just crap.


This is obviously not true. Look at how much money the diet industry makes. I'd be willing to bet that most fat people would rather not be fat. The will is there, but the uphill battle involved is too much for most people.
"Too much for most people"? So what, you think they're all weak willed? Like what, 60-70% of the population aren't up to your standards?

F U.

Try holding your breath. OMG, you can can hold it for a while, such will power. Why can't you hold it longer? What's wrong with your willpower?

Drop the judgmental confirmation bias and look at the actual evidence.
 
I object to the terms "healthy" and "unhealthy diet" as if those were firmly and clearly established.

I can buy a 5lb bag of sugar for about $3.50. At 9 calories per gram, that works out to 4,050 calories for $3.50. How is this more expensive on a per-calorie basis than so-called "healthy" foods?

I picked plain sugar because it requires no preparation or cooking and is readily available. There may be even better examples.
 
I've heard some make the argument the indigent may not have an oven or microwave. Weirdly, they've never mentioned a refrigerator. I think the documentary Food Inc. profiles an immigrant family, and let's them get away with promoting the idea that McDonalds is more cost-effective than a supermarket.

It's not a migrant issue here - these are just your average bottom-decile people, and they all own an oven.

I had a laugh today as I drove past the biggest KFC in NZ, sitting smack in the middle of the most-deprived suburb.
 
No mother ..... Who knows what all the underlying causes are?

It's actually very simple science, as has been stated a few times: calories in - calories spent = weight gain.

Genetically, some - probably most - people are predisposed to weight gain.

The point is, the evidence overwhelmingly supports the conclusion, it's not willpower. That is just crap.

While you completely avoided the point - which was the multi-billion dollar diet industry proves that people would like to lose weight. Jenny Craig alone is worth almost a billion dollars.

I picked plain sugar because it requires no preparation or cooking and is readily available. There may be even better examples.

Except you're not going to survive on it for very long, so there are an enormous amount of better examples.

A healthy diet is one that provides adequate & balanced nutrition.
 
I picked plain sugar because it requires no preparation or cooking and is readily available. There may be even better examples.

Except you're not going to survive on it for very long, so there are an enormous amount of better examples.

A healthy diet is one that provides adequate & balanced nutrition.

I don't understand your comments. Are you proposing that one could not survive on sugar for caloric intake? And I don't think the term "balanced nutrition" is adequately defined. We could add a cheap multi-vitamin (a couple dollars for a month's supply) to the mix. I think sugar is still going to be cheaper.

Would it surprise you to know that adding sugar to a diet is one suggestion from the American Heart Association? I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with sugar as a main diet ingredient to cover calorie needs.
 
Would it surprise you to know that adding sugar to a diet is one suggestion from the American Heart Association? I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with sugar as a main diet ingredient to cover calorie needs.

If you needed to add calories to food intake it would work fine, but it's not a problem I've ever heard of.

What kind of diet would need calories added?
 
I object to the terms "healthy" and "unhealthy diet" as if those were firmly and clearly established.

I can buy a 5lb bag of sugar for about $3.50. At 9 calories per gram, that works out to 4,050 calories for $3.50. How is this more expensive on a per-calorie basis than so-called "healthy" foods?

I picked plain sugar because it requires no preparation or cooking and is readily available. There may be even better examples.

In my post, I compared like for like. If you want to use sugar as your example of an unhealthy food, then what would you consider the healthy equivalent? The big thing at the moment appears to be Stevia, so let's look at that:

The cheapest sugar you can get at Sainsbury's is 60p/kg and contains 400kCal per 100g
The cheapest Stevia you can get at Sainsbury's is £13.33/kg and contains 0kCal per 100g

Seems like a slam-dunk for sugar on price, right? Except that steviol glycosides are 250-300 times sweeter than sugar. This means that you need to use 250-300 times less of it to get the same result. So, assuming the lower figure of 250 times sweeter, for the 60p cost of that kg of sugar, you would need to spend 5p on Stevia. Or, to put it another way, despite the difference in per kg price, in terms of usage Stevia is actually 30 times cheaper than sugar.

I don't think that sugar really makes the argument that unhealthy food is less expensive than healthy food. I also think that Stevia is an excellent example of how assessing the expense of food purely on the basis of cost per calorie is flawed when it comes to talking about issues of weight loss, because such an assessment method would count Stevia as infinitely expensive. So, for that matter, would it classify water as such, meaning that it would classify tap water as prohibitively expensive, and non-diet fizzy drinks as an infinitely cheaper option.

I hope I don't have to labour the point as to why the argument that people drink coke rather than tap water because coke is much cheaper would be nonsense.
 
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If you needed to add calories to food intake it would work fine, but it's not a problem I've ever heard of.

What kind of diet would need calories added?

A cheap diet. One based on spending the least amount of money. I thought this was the issue - that the poor are more prone to adding weight because they think they are saving money by buying fast foods - to their detriment.

I was claiming that you can save money by buying things like pure sugar for caloric needs as a counter to the "eating healthy is cheaper" than not eating healthy idea.
 
A cheap diet. One based on spending the least amount of money. I thought this was the issue - that the poor are more prone to adding weight because they think they are saving money by buying fast foods - to their detriment.

I was claiming that you can save money by buying things like pure sugar for caloric needs as a counter to the "eating healthy is cheaper" than not eating healthy idea.

Perhaps it's just me being stupid, but I don't get your point at all. You seem to be claiming that an ideal diet for weight loss would be to continue eating unhealthy foods but to add sugar. I don't believe for one second that that is what you are advocating, though.

I really don't get what diet you're suggesting adding pure sugar to, and how you think that's a counter to the idea that eating healthily is cheaper than eating unhealthily. Can you elucidate, please?
 
Perhaps it's just me being stupid, but I don't get your point at all. You seem to be claiming that an ideal diet for weight loss would be to continue eating unhealthy foods but to add sugar. I don't believe for one second that that is what you are advocating, though.

I really don't get what diet you're suggesting adding pure sugar to, and how you think that's a counter to the idea that eating healthily is cheaper than eating unhealthily. Can you elucidate, please?

First, I don't care for the classification of "eating healthy" and "not eating healthy," and especially in the context of weight loss.

If poverty is associated with obesity (which I think it is), then there's an idea being floated around that this is at least partly driven by economic choices. Now, if the impoverished (not really starving, but lower income) are eating more fast food, and fast food is unhealthy, then the explanation is to look at whether this is a true economy or a false one. In other words, are the poor driven to eat fast food instead of preparing their own, healthier meals? If you could buy "healthier" food more cheaply, then the poor are just making a bad choice - it's nothing to do with income.

My contention is that the healthy-unhealthy pairing is the wrong way to look at it, since pure sugar could easily provide the needed calories, and you can buy it cheap. So part of the driver of the false economic choice is avoiding cheap calories because they have been described as unhealthy.

In my view, the important thing isn't the what you eat (within reason), but the how much is being consumed on a calorie basis. So-called "convenience foods" may still come out as losers, but not because they are "bad," just because they are too expensive per calorie. A corollary would be that "healthy" foods will still produce obesity, so long as someone consumes enough of them.
 
You know what I think is a myth? That it's cheaper to live off unhealthy food than it is healthy food. Buying, for example, loose potatoes is cheaper than buying chips (fries, if you're American), and you don't have to cover them in grease and fat when you cook them. I think it's unquestionably true that going to McDonald's is more expensive than cooking for yourself.

Of course there will always be instances of certain healthy foods that are cheaper than certain unhealthy foods and vice versa. It's silly to make broad generalizations either way.

It seems that research which looks at how expensive various foods are in comparison to how healthy they are tend to assess price per calorie (like this study, which found that healthy food is 3x as expensive as non-healthy food). But part of what classifies a foodstuff as more healthy is that it has a lower energy density than the less healthy foodstuff. This is especially true if what you're looking at is weight loss.

I love how that study combines "meat, fish, eggs, beans and other sources of protein" into one category and shows them at around 4 pounds per 1000 kcal. I've bought beans for the dollar equivalent of about 0.20 pounds per 1000 kcal (20 times less!). Meat, fish and eggs are way more expensive than beans. It's a very misleading display. It makes about as much sense as averaging a six pack of Blatts beer and some over-priced elitist wine and concluding that "alcohol costs about 50 dollars per gram".

"Foods high in fat and/or sugar" is such a broad/unclear category. Is fruit high in sugar? Is meat high in fat? How the heck high is high. They say "We classified food items in our new dataset according to five distinct food groups, defined by the Eatwell Plate—a tool for nutrition communication developed by the DH to define a healthy diet." So I assumed "the Eatwell Plate" offered some sort of objective criteria for classification. But as far as I can tell "the Eatwell Plate" is just a graphic of a pie chart that looks like a plate.

I also note that what they have displayed as the cheapest category (rice, pasta, bread, potatoes) is something that "the Eatwell Plate" recommends eating plenty of.

They are right that vegetables and fruits tend to be high in nutrition, but relatively low in calories. And that they are, thus, more expensive per kcal. I thought that was common knowledge. But other than that, the study seems like junk.

The chips have more than twice the calories for roughly the same price. This means that they will be counted as more than twice as cheap by studies such as the one linked above, yet if you're trying to reduce your calorific intake, then the potatoes would be the better option, would they not?

When they say "cheaper to live on" they're just referring to calories, as that is the most basic thing you need from food in order to sustain yourself and to feel psychologically okay (not suffering from hunger pangs) in the short term. If all one cared about was calorific intake and price then they should buy the chips over the potatoes and simply eat less of the chips per day. I could reduce my calorie intake to 1000 per day eating an all-twinky diet - a pound of feathers doesn't weigh less than a pound of lead. (Of course, that's assuming perfect self control and calorie monitoring. It's easier to over-eat on some foods than others.)

So, no, I don't believe that it's cheaper to eat unhealthily than it is to eat healthily. I think that the usual method of assessing the expense of food is unsuited for this purpose, as it necessarily means that foods which are lower in calories are deemed more expensive than those which are full of calories. It's front-loading the results into the testing method.

You need some basis for measuring "expense" and calories per dollar is one way of doing it that does make some sense, to a degree. Nutrients per dollar is another way to do it, but it wouldn't make much sense to define expense by nutrients per dollar and then comment on whether expensive foods are more or less healthy than inexpensive foods. I think going by the weight and/or volume of the food makes the least sense, but it's not a worthless consideration. When it comes down to it, though, if you're poor and hungry you're probably going to prefer calories over micronutrients or weight/volume every time.

I still think eating healthy is cheap if you know how to do it. Beans are amazing value, not just for calories, but for protein, vitamins and minerals as well. An electric pressure cooker makes them ridiculously easy to cook. And a little bit of vegetables goes a long way. That was another misleading grouping, because there is a lot of variation in fruit/vegetable price as well. Green cabbage - amazing value. Apples - not very good value.
 
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In my post, I compared like for like. If you want to use sugar as your example of an unhealthy food, then what would you consider the healthy equivalent? The big thing at the moment appears to be Stevia, so let's look at that:

The cheapest sugar you can get at Sainsbury's is 60p/kg and contains 400kCal per 100g
The cheapest Stevia you can get at Sainsbury's is £13.33/kg and contains 0kCal per 100g

Seems like a slam-dunk for sugar on price, right? Except that steviol glycosides are 250-300 times sweeter than sugar. This means that you need to use 250-300 times less of it to get the same result. So, assuming the lower figure of 250 times sweeter, for the 60p cost of that kg of sugar, you would need to spend 5p on Stevia. Or, to put it another way, despite the difference in per kg price, in terms of usage Stevia is actually 30 times cheaper than sugar.

I don't think that sugar really makes the argument that unhealthy food is less expensive than healthy food. I also think that Stevia is an excellent example of how assessing the expense of food purely on the basis of cost per calorie is flawed when it comes to talking about issues of weight loss, because such an assessment method would count Stevia as infinitely expensive. So, for that matter, would it classify water as such, meaning that it would classify tap water as prohibitively expensive, and non-diet fizzy drinks as an infinitely cheaper option.

I hope I don't have to labour the point as to why the argument that people drink coke rather than tap water because coke is much cheaper would be nonsense.

You made about the dumbest mistake I can think of. Stevia has 300x SWEETNESS, not calories. Did you miss that we are talking about the calories in sugar?

I once calculated cost/1000 calories. A bag of prepared salad was about $20. Beef, $4, Mac and cheese about .50. Sugar .30.
 
But really, this thread is about losing weight, not about indigent people starving.

Fatness comes down to appetite control. It's tough. What works for me is low carbs, and staying busy. No junk food in the house, and if you feel hungry, go for a walk instead of raiding the refrigerator.

I think I'm going to rename my frying pan Sleep Apnea, and my refrigerator Diabetes. And tell my dog it is time for a walk with Hypertension.
 
First, I don't care for the classification of "eating healthy" and "not eating healthy," and especially in the context of weight loss.

If poverty is associated with obesity (which I think it is), then there's an idea being floated around that this is at least partly driven by economic choices. Now, if the impoverished (not really starving, but lower income) are eating more fast food, and fast food is unhealthy, then the explanation is to look at whether this is a true economy or a false one. In other words, are the poor driven to eat fast food instead of preparing their own, healthier meals? If you could buy "healthier" food more cheaply, then the poor are just making a bad choice - it's nothing to do with income.

My contention is that the healthy-unhealthy pairing is the wrong way to look at it, since pure sugar could easily provide the needed calories, and you can buy it cheap. So part of the driver of the false economic choice is avoiding cheap calories because they have been described as unhealthy.

In my view, the important thing isn't the what you eat (within reason), but the how much is being consumed on a calorie basis. So-called "convenience foods" may still come out as losers, but not because they are "bad," just because they are too expensive per calorie. A corollary would be that "healthy" foods will still produce obesity, so long as someone consumes enough of them.

Then I'm assuming that you missed the link to the earlier study, which is in line with other studies, which shows that per calorie unhealthy foods are cheaper? And, indeed, you've missed the posts in which I explain why I don't think that that is a useful metric by which to calculate the cost of various foods in the context of talking about weight loss? That would, I suppose, explain why you ignored my response to your post about sugar.
 
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You need some basis for measuring "expense" and calories per dollar is one way of doing it that does make some sense, to a degree. Nutrients per dollar is another way to do it, but it wouldn't make much sense to define expense by nutrients per dollar and then comment on whether expensive foods are more or less healthy than inexpensive foods. I think going by the weight and/or volume of the food makes the least sense, but it's not a worthless consideration. When it comes down to it, though, if you're poor and hungry you're probably going to prefer calories over micronutrients or weight/volume every time.

Let's not forget that the context of this discussion is the claim of people being unable to avoid being overweight because eating unhealthy food is less expensive than eating healthy food.

It's also worth noting that feeling "full" is not simply a product of how many calories you've consumed. If it were, then you could drink a few cans of coke and not feel the need to eat anything for the rest of the day. Indeed if it were, then the argument that people couldn't avoid being overweight because their budget only allowed them to eat unhealthy food would be debunked because they'd just feel full after having eaten less and everybody would be the same weight no matter what kind of food they ate.
 
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You made about the dumbest mistake I can think of. Stevia has 300x SWEETNESS, not calories. Did you miss that we are talking about the calories in sugar?

I once calculated cost/1000 calories. A bag of prepared salad was about $20. Beef, $4, Mac and cheese about .50. Sugar .30.

So...you've not read any of my posts in this thread, then? Not even, apparently, the entirety of the post you're replying to.

You might want to do that, and then give replying another go.
 
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Let's not forget that the context of this discussion is the claim of people being unable to avoid being overweight because eating unhealthy food is less expensive than eating healthy food.

The post was about whether or not "healthy" food costs more than "unhealthy food" and the study you linked to seemed to define healthy in terms of nutritional content rather than potential for weight loss/gain. I responded to it as written. But I see you mentioned in a later post that you had been referring to weight specifically, rather than general health. Clarification noted.

It's also worth noting that feeling "full" is not simply a product of how many calories you've consumed.

I'm sure this is true (which is why I said it's easier to overeat on some foods than others), but I've struggled in the past to find any good science on what factors cause feeling full.

If it were, then you could drink a few cans of coke and not feel the need to eat anything for the rest of the day.

That's only 550-900 calories (for 3-5 cans of coke).

Indeed if it were, then the argument that people couldn't avoid being overweight because their budget only allowed them to eat unhealthy food would be debunked because they'd just feel full after having eaten less and everybody would be the same weight no matter what kind of food they ate.

You can lose weight eating absolutely any type of food ( see the "Twinkie diet"). But I agree that without strict calorie regulation, some foods are going to tend to facilitate weight loss and others, weight gain. I just wish I could find more science on the specifics of this.
 
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That's only 550-900 calories (for 3-5 cans of coke).

Well, I wasn't using exact figures there, but I hope you understand my point. 4 Snickers bars, if you prefer. I'm sure that few people could eat nothing but 8 Snickers bars in an entire day and feel like they had eaten the equivalent of 3 full meals.

You can lose weight eating absolutely any type of food ( see the "Twinkie diet").

I have not claimed otherwise.
 
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Well, I wasn't using exact figures there, but I hope you understand my point. 4 Snickers bars, if you prefer. I'm sure that few people could eat nothing but 8 Snickers bars in an entire day and feel like they had eaten the equivalent of 3 full meals.

I don't put much trust in my (or other people's) intuition when it comes to thought experiments like this. I'd have to actually try it.

Why do you think it wouldn't make people feel full? The amount of sugar? I think the sugar would probably make people feel sick and possibly make them crave some sort of non-sugary food as a counter balance. I once bet a guy that he couldn't eat an entire package of oreos within an hour. I won and I remember him trying to eat some other things afterwards in order to feel less sick.
 
Why do you think it wouldn't make people feel full? The amount of sugar?

The low volume and lack of fiber, plus the high amount of raw sugar (which digests quickly and causes a blood sugar spike).

I think the sugar would probably make people feel sick and possibly make them crave some sort of non-sugary food as a counter balance. I once bet a guy that he couldn't eat an entire package of oreos within an hour. I won and I remember him trying to eat some other things afterwards in order to feel less sick.
I think you could handle one candy bar per 1 1/2 hours for twelve hours. You might feel like crap at the end of the day, true, but if you didn't feel too sick you would probably be very hungry compared to eating the same amount of calories in vegetables and lean meat.
 

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