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Faster and Furiousness

I Ratant said:
Oh, THAT conspiracy.
It certainly works for....................... just about no one.....! :(
Destabilizing (even more) the Mexican government is going to affect the US.
Right.....
As with all such, only the adept can winkle out the "true purposes" of activities they could never be in touch with, tinfoil hats being an instant disqualifier.
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Hey, look. I can explain the theory. But I'm fine with the Total DumbAss theory of ops too. Somehow it bothers me even more though.

:)
 
Newtons Bit said:
The current conspiracy theory is that Fast and Furious was a program designed to get people killed in Mexico. And at the moment, such a conspiracy makes more sense given the facts than any legitimate purpose of the program.
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I don't see this. Prior to this program, the Mexican cartels were certainly not wanting for guns and ammunition. If you have 1000s of guns, a few more isn't going to increase your kill rate.

Newtons Bit said:
What in the god damned hell is the point of that? Aid in destabilizing the Mexican government? We actively armed paramilitary groups in Mexico. Someone needs to be held accountable for that.
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We've been actively arming paramilitary groups in Central and South American for decades in both Dem and Rep administrations. Why this latest episode engenders conspiracy theories while the many others do not is what is surprising to me. Maybe we could call this one OliverNorthGate.
 
SezMe said:
I don't see this. Prior to this program, the Mexican cartels were certainly not wanting for guns and ammunition. If you have 1000s of guns, a few more isn't going to increase your kill rate.
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Given that the government did not want to know where the guns went in Mexico, could you please tell me what the point of allowing them across the border was?


We've been actively arming paramilitary groups in Central and South American for decades in both Dem and Rep administrations. Why this latest episode engenders conspiracy theories while the many others do not is what is surprising to me. Maybe we could call this one OliverNorthGate.
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Mexico is our ALLY.
 
Newtons Bit said:
Given that the government did not want to know where the guns went in Mexico, could you please tell me what the point of allowing them across the border was?
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I have no idea. Stupidity? Overly narrow focus on getting the bad guys instead of the big picture? Incompetence? Money? Justification for one's job? Some of all of these?

Don't misunderstand me. I think the whole thing was woring from the get go. I am not trying to defend it.
 
Darth Rotor said:
This looks to be an issue of crappy oversight by a Federal Agency, at best, and I am not sure what it is, at worst.

No good news.
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Multiple federal agencies and multiple programs, if all the high level briefings with the FBI, Justice, and a few others are included.

And then ATF ordered their people not to testify -- that always looks good.
 
SezMe said:
I have no idea. Stupidity? Overly narrow focus on getting the bad guys instead of the big picture? Incompetence? Money? Justification for one's job? Some of all of these?

Don't misunderstand me. I think the whole thing was woring from the get go. I am not trying to defend it.
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Hey, dude, you mean it could be like, total dumbass stuff?

No way!

Wait...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Vw2CrY9Igs&feature=related
 
SezMe said:
Don't misunderstand me. I think the whole thing was woring from the get go. I am not trying to defend it.
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If the entire plan was bad, from the ground up, that's an awful lot of incompetent people. Pretty much everyone involved considering the plan was likely not drawn up over drinks at the ATF Agency Ball afterparty and implemented the next morning. There should have been plenty of time for someone to say "wait a minute, what in blazes are we doing?!?". Someone probably was saying that, and if so I'd be interested to see a list of people they were ignored by.
 
SezMe said:
I have no idea. Stupidity? Overly narrow focus on getting the bad guys instead of the big picture? Incompetence? Money? Justification for one's job? Some of all of these?

Don't misunderstand me. I think the whole thing was woring from the get go. I am not trying to defend it.
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Right. A lot of people are assuming that the government DIDN'T screw up.
 
Newtons Bit said:
Right. A lot of people are assuming that the government DIDN'T screw up.
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Not I.

The general and undisputed category is "Total Dumbass".

Within that, and not separate and distinct, is "Under the table we are working on gun control" conspiracy theory.

It's the same exact screwup either way.

And just think - these are the bozos that want us to give them purse strings to trillions.
 
Newtons Bit said:
Given that the government did not want to know where the guns went in Mexico, could you please tell me what the point of allowing them across the border was?
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Local Tea Party making hay with this, which is astute, as it doesn't seem like there is any redeeming feature to this and no discernible purpose. A cluster. This gives them a nice rallying issue aimed at key administration officials and I don't blame them.

But, 2,000 guns - a drop in the bucket. Not right to do it but I don't see how even one more person would die since the criminals will be armed no matter what.

Obama's secret agenda to take away our guns ... sheez. I just don't believe it. It's a cliche I know but legal gun owners tend to be law-abiding and plenty of them are Democrats as well.
 
Minoosh said:
But, 2,000 guns - a drop in the bucket. Not right to do it but I don't see how even one more person would die since the criminals will be armed no matter what.
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Innocent people have died and are still dying as a result of this arms shipment. Just because it's not a secret conspiracy doesn't make it a "drop in the bucket".. Also there's a big impact difference between "2,000 guns" in general and 2000 guns handed to people certain to use them in the commission of atrocities.
 
Minoosh said:
Local Tea Party making hay with this, which is astute, as it doesn't seem like there is any redeeming feature to this and no discernible purpose. A cluster. This gives them a nice rallying issue aimed at key administration officials and I don't blame them.

But, 2,000 guns - a drop in the bucket. Not right to do it but I don't see how even one more person would die since the criminals will be armed no matter what......
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Two things.

It's probably the vast majority - say way up in to 90-90% range - of guns purchased illegally through straw buyers in the US and moved to the drug gangs. And it's typically the worst types of weapons - stuff that will rapidly pump out a lot of lead for close combat or terrorist operations. Stuff that can loosely be termed "assault rifles". Give a bunch of bad guys this type of gear, causalties will simply go up. Because that's what these guns DO.

The escalation of the shooting war by the drug gangs should be considered, too. One side gets a couple dozen AK47s. Guess what? The other side has to get themselves some of those toys. So we are at least partly guilty in causing the escalation.

And that's the curious part. A drug gang, or a drug war, does not in and of itself have to require pitched battles and 15,000 dead per year in the civilian community. There is a fair part of the violent behavior of these groups that we simply don't understand. For example the many, many terroristic killings of innocent people.

Drug wars at the root are simply about money. This more resembles Lebanon or Somalia, where warlords fight each other for local or regional control of areas.
 
Emperor_Gestahl said:
If the entire plan was bad, from the ground up, that's an awful lot of incompetent people. Pretty much everyone involved considering the plan was likely not drawn up over drinks at the ATF Agency Ball afterparty and implemented the next morning. There should have been plenty of time for someone to say "wait a minute, what in blazes are we doing?!?". Someone probably was saying that, and if so I'd be interested to see a list of people they were ignored by.
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And it seems even worse. Joint ATF-AG Office investigation/operation, both headed by DOJ; DEA involvement; FBI briefings; briefings to White House officials; the program involved wiretaps, which had to go through a separate section of DOJ . . . .


Jesus, Mary, and Jospehine, how do THAT many people look at this mess and let it go on for ten minutes, much less for 2000 guns and 200+ deaths?
 
NoZed Avenger said:
And it seems even worse. Joint ATF-AG Office investigation/operation, both headed by DOJ; DEA involvement; FBI briefings; briefings to White House officials; the program involved wiretaps, which had to go through a separate section of DOJ . . . .


Jesus, Mary, and Jospehine, how do THAT many people look at this mess and let it go on for ten minutes, much less for 2000 guns and 200+ deaths?
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The part that's at least to me disturbingly revolting is the apparent attitude that they didn't care about the murders. That that was someone justified for whatever their "higher cause" was, if it only was that a higher up approved or ordered it.

What kind of person is that?

Hint: We are not talking CIA here. They have these sorts of things, yes. I believe that's different matter.

More details unfold.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinio..._in_full_WYXAPQoFlBaBVer5Q47oiO#ixzz1Zz77AuUK
 
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NoZed Avenger said:
And it seems even worse. Joint ATF-AG Office investigation/operation, both headed by DOJ; DEA involvement; FBI briefings; briefings to White House officials; the program involved wiretaps, which had to go through a separate section of DOJ . . . .


Jesus, Mary, and Jospehine, how do THAT many people look at this mess and let it go on for ten minutes, much less for 2000 guns and 200+ deaths?
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Well, you know, those deaths?

Like, they were ONLY, like, or mostly only, Mexicans.

<<illustrating type of thinking in Washington DC>>

So is it fair to say that the Obama administration OWNS THIS SCANDAL?

I kind of think so, although I'm not in favor of it becoming a politicalized scandal.
 
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mhaze said:
So is it fair to say that the Obama administration OWNS THIS SCANDAL?

I kind of think so, although I'm not in favor of it becoming a politicalized scandal.
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If you're not in favor of it, then stop injecting it into the discussion.

I'd like to make any conclusions about who why and how much jail time people need after an independent prosecution finishes the investigation, and not before it.

Right now, I am willing to say that SOMEONE's ass is in a crack, but I'd rather wait to have actual evidence before worrying about who the finger ends up pointing at.

At the moment, Holder's (and all of Justice, actually) actions after the congressional investigation started concern the hell out of me, but I'd like something tangible before I grab my torch and pitchfork.
 
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