Faster and Furiousness

[NoZed Avenger]

There have been ongoing stories concerning Fast & Furious, the program from the ATF that directed gun dealers to violate the law and sell weapons that were going straight to drug cartels in Mexico. There were two other wimilar programs that were also designed to send guns to a drug cartel, and the Mexican government says these guns were used to kill over 200 people. Guns foiund at the scene of a US border agent's death were also part of the program, apparently.

I will try to pull a few background stories for more details if I have time.

But the latest looks interesting:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20115038-10391695.html

WASHINGTON - New documents obtained by CBS News show Attorney General Eric Holder was sent briefings on the controversial Fast and Furious operation as far back as July 2010. That directly contradicts his statement to Congress.

On May 3, 2011, Holder told a Judiciary Committee hearing, "I'm not sure of the exact date, but I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks."

So far, Justice has offered three different reasons for his answer:

(1) He misheard or misunderstood the question (When did you first learn of the program); he thought Congress was asking if knew about “details” of the operation, not the operation’s existence. (1a) Justice says Holder’s response referred to when he first learned of the “troubling tactics” of the program.

(2) On foxnews, representatives at Justice claimed the U.S. Attorney General doesn’t read the memos updating ongoing ops. And finally,

(3) Justice also says that the “gun walking” referred to in the October 2010 email exchange is about *another* case initiated before Operation Fast and Furious.

Dunno if this goes all the way up to Holder, but I think there's enough for an independent prosecutor -- and enough to insist that the Justice Department no longer heads this investigation, as the appearance of them investigating themselves leaves much to be desired.

 

[mhaze]

Who was it that said a little while back that the US Government was working on gun control "under the table"?

Oh yeah.....Obama.

...During the meeting, President Obama dropped in and, according to Sarah Brady, brought up the issue of gun control, “to fill us in that it was very much on his agenda,” she said.
“I just want you to know that we are working on it,” Brady recalled the president telling them. “We have to go through a few processes, but under the radar.”

Even the Huffington Post confirms this "under the radar" approach.

- Faced with a Congress hostile to even slight restrictions of Second Amendment rights, the Obama administration is exploring potential changes to gun laws that can be secured strictly through executive action

And then of course you have the "claim that 90% of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the US". Who made that claim? Obama...

In the Watergate scandal with Nixon, nobody was killed. Here....

 

[Skepticemea]

So Obama working on gun control, a Democratic Party issue, is comparable with Watergate where Nixon sanction illegal acts against the American public in a clear violation of his mandate and the trust placed in him?

Or is it just coincidence you mention Watergate in the same post?

 

[Bikewer]

I don't understand the implied connection between the "Fast And Furious" program and "gun control".
As I understand it, Fast and furious was an attempt to trace illegal weapons to the "source" end-point, the upper levels of the drug cartels so as to identify and hopefully arrest them.
That the program was ill-conceived and poorly conducted seems obvious now, they were trying to run this like a narcotics operation but the "product" in this case is not consumed but used to kill other people.
It's not a big secret that people can use permissive purchasing regulations to obtain and then re-sell large numbers of weapons.

 

[Newtons Bit]

I don't understand the implied connection between the "Fast And Furious" program and "gun control".
As I understand it, Fast and furious was an attempt to trace illegal weapons to the "source" end-point, the upper levels of the drug cartels so as to identify and hopefully arrest them.
That the program was ill-conceived and poorly conducted seems obvious now, they were trying to run this like a narcotics operation but the "product" in this case is not consumed but used to kill other people.
It's not a big secret that people can use permissive purchasing regulations to obtain and then re-sell large numbers of weapons.

The current conspiracy theory is that Fast and Furious was a program designed to get people killed in Mexico. And at the moment, such a conspiracy makes more sense given the facts than any legitimate purpose of the program.

The ATF allowed straw buyers to acquire large numbers of guns, ship them to Mexico and then repeat the process. Once the guns crossed the border they vanished, because no one bothered to tell the Mexican government that we were doing this. And then the ATF allowed more guns to cross. And more... and more...

What in the god damned hell is the point of that? Aid in destabilizing the Mexican government? We actively armed paramilitary groups in Mexico. Someone needs to be held accountable for that.


eta: I saw an episode of Anderson Cooper's 360 a couple weeks ago that talked about Fast and Furious. He had a correspondent on that mentioned that there was a growing conspiracy theory that this program was a means of embarrassing the USA into passing strict Gun Control laws. When asked on how crazy that was, the correspondent replied something to the effect, "sure, but at the moment, it's the only explanation that makes any sense."

 

[mhaze]

....It's not a big secret that people can use permissive purchasing regulations to obtain and then re-sell large numbers of weapons.

It's no secret that this is a common myth, spread by liberal gun control advocates. The reality is quite different.

Licensed dealers report sales of 2 or more long guns in the same trasaction to the ATF. They also run ALL gun sales through the NICS background check.

In the cases at hand, dealers were asked to NOT DO the NICS background check by ATF agents citing some vague legal authority. I haven't read the full text of the law, but I believe this is way beyond their legal authority.

So you see, by ATF complicity, people who would not have passed the background check purchased large numbers of assault rifles - thousands of them....

Finally, purchasing for resale eg "straw man purchase" is a felony. Most people would not think that penalties at the level of felony were "permissive", but you may differ on that.

 

[NoZed Avenger]

I don't understand the implied connection between the "Fast And Furious" program and "gun control".

I don't even want to get into that controversy. Ascribing extra motives above and beyond the massive screw-up that this program generated is unnecessary and runs down rabbit holes that - IMO - don't matter. The major questions in my mind question remain: who authorized this dog's breakfast of a program; how many people and how high uip did that go; was Holder or someone high up in justice directing it; and did any of the people testifying before Congress lied to cover up any of the massive screw-ups involved.

As I understand it, Fast and furious was an attempt to trace illegal weapons to the "source" end-point, the upper levels of the drug cartels so as to identify and hopefully arrest them. That the program was ill-conceived and poorly conducted seems obvious now, they were trying to run this like a narcotics operation but the "product" in this case is not consumed but used to kill other people. It's not a big secret that people can use permissive purchasing regulations to obtain and then re-sell large numbers of weapons.

Except that these weapons weren't part of any permissive purchasing regulations -- they were flagged as prohibited and then ordered to be allowed by the ATF. They would not have occurred, but for the affirmative actions of the people supposeduly in charge of stopping that kind of thing.

 

[Bikewer]

In that case, one can only hope that the ultimate goal of the ill-thought-out enterprise will come out in the ensuing investigation....
Maybe they thought all the cartel guys would shoot each other and problem solved?

 

[mhaze]

In that case, one can only hope that the ultimate goal of the ill-thought-out enterprise will come out in the ensuing investigation....
Maybe they thought all the cartel guys would shoot each other and problem solved?

yeah, regardless of what they thought they were doing, this is going to wind up .... in the absence of presidential pardons ..... as very long jail times.

don't forget Mexico could ask for extradition. I'd have trouble saying no to that.

over 200 identified as killed by these assault weapons, mostly innocent people. not that that matters....

the wagons are being circled and I suspect the Atf and Justice are picking out convenient fall guys as we talk.

 

[ravdin]

I think it's much more likely this is an example of incompetence and stupidity than a government conspiracy. That would imply that the people in charge of this mess actually have a clue about what they're doing.

 

[Ziggurat]

I don't even want to get into that controversy. Ascribing extra motives above and beyond the massive screw-up that this program generated is unnecessary and runs down rabbit holes that - IMO - don't matter.

I agree. While it can be tempting, even comforting, to ascribe malice to acts which one is deeply opposed to, that can easily become a trap for critics of those acts. I've seen enough obsession over motives from people I've argued against to not want to fall into that trap myself. The actions themselves here were plenty bad, and deserve serious accountability regardless of what motivated them.

 

[Newtons Bit]

I agree. While it can be tempting, even comforting, to ascribe malice to acts which one is deeply opposed to, that can easily become a trap for critics of those acts. I've seen enough obsession over motives from people I've argued against to not want to fall into that trap myself. The actions themselves here were plenty bad, and deserve serious accountability regardless of what motivated them.

But the conspiracy theories are fun!

 

[WildCat]

On May 3, 2011, Holder told a Judiciary Committee hearing, "I'm not sure of the exact date, but I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks."

Weasel word hilited. That's how you lie without actually lying, Holder is a true professional.

 

[mhaze]

On May 3, 2011, Holder told a Judiciary Committee hearing, "I'm not sure of the exact date, but I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks."

Weasel word hilited. That's how you lie without actually lying, Holder is a true professional.

Well, we shall see...

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/gunwalker-house-wants-special-counsel-to-investigate-eric-holder/

House Republicans are going to call for a special counsel to determine whether Attorney General Holder perjured himself during his testimony to the House Judiciary Committee on Operation Fast and Furious, Fox News has learned.
House Judiciary Committee Chairman Lamar Smith, R-Texas, is sending a letter to President Obama arguing that Holder cannot investigate himself and will request a probe by a special counsel.
The question is whether Holder committed perjury during a Judiciary Committee hearing in May. At the time, Holder indicated he was not familiar with with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives program known as Fast and Furious.
​

Judiciary’s call for special counsel comes after documentation surfaced yesterday that indicated Holder was getting weekly briefs on Operation Fast and Furious, and that senior Justice Department executives were well aware that these operations were walking guns into Mexico.


Holder - Fast, Furious, Finished.


But does it end with him?

 

[I Ratant]

Considering the weapons involved would realistically be found after some felony in Mexico, the process had no thought at all driving it.
As the situation in Mexico is beyond appalling, with a very aggressive group of criminals working basically free of any restraint, that the small number of weapons actually located relative to the number that are in use, ten times that many, what the **** was BATF thinking?
The slaughter of just about anyone who gets noticed by the criminals there is certainly not anything to participate in, with a thinking mind at the source of the supply.
Extradition would be nice.

 

[Darth Rotor]

To restate Nozed's thrust:

The major questions in my mind question remain:

1. who authorized this dog's breakfast of a program;
2. how many people and how high up did that go;
3. was Holder or someone high up in justice directing it;
4. and did any of the people testifying before Congress lied to cover up any of the massive screw-ups involved.

This in the interest of heading off OT drivel.

These weapons weren't part of any permissive purchasing regulations -- they were flagged as prohibited and then ordered to be allowed by the ATF. They would not have occurred, but for the affirmative actions of the people supposeduly in charge of stopping that kind of thing.

Not every Sting Operation goes as planned. This could get real ugly.

MHaze, request you stop trying to link this to gun control legislation. Red Herring.

This looks to be an issue of crappy oversight by a Federal Agency, at best, and I am not sure what it is, at worst.

No good news.

 

[mhaze]

....Not every Sting Operation goes as planned. This could get real ugly.

MHaze, request you stop trying to link this to gun control legislation. Red Herring. ....

You refer to post #2. But note the qualification I made at the start of #9.

That means essentially, that the motives do not matter when judging the criminality of the actions. In fact, ascribing motives to the "DumbAss" theory is far worse than assuming an intelligent top down driven conspiracy. The "DumbAss" explanation brings these guys right into the little dystopic world of Idiocracy.

But do not forget our friend Nixon hiring a special prosecutor, and then firing a special prosecutor...

 

[I Ratant]

What would be the "top-down conspiracy"?
By whom, to accomplish what, where?

 

[mhaze]

Laid out adequately in posts #2 and #5. To create an "urgent necessity" to impose gun control by executive action. Which Obama did try to do in the four border states a couple months ago, but he was forced to back down.

 

[I Ratant]

Oh, THAT conspiracy.
It certainly works for....................... just about no one.....!
Destabilizing (even more) the Mexican government is going to affect the US.
Right.....
As with all such, only the adept can winkle out the "true purposes" of activities they could never be in touch with, tinfoil hats being an instant disqualifier.