Merged Fan Death in Korea

[BillyJoe]

Unless you have some research here Billy, I suggest you hold off on this conclusion and especially your hypothesis as to the reason.

I am not a researcher, just passing on what I have heard form medical specialists.

There were two studies (and maybe a couple more I didn't see) that showed getting one's feet cold resulted in more colds. Both studies had small numbers of test subjects. At least one researcher hypothesized, (based on some other study showing that during respiratory virus outbreaks there were a fair number of asymptomatic infections), that the infections were asymptomatic and the cold feet caused them to become symptomatic.

That would seem to support that view.

But those studies are contradicted by a large number of studies that showed exposure to inclement weather and/or cold temperatures had no effect on one's immune system (excluding frostbite of course) or on the number or length of colds one experiences.

I didn't say it affected the immune system, only that the viruses replicate better at lower temperatures and hence would have a greater chance of taking hold in the body if the body was harbouring the virus and if the body temperature dropped.

As to your hypothesis lower body temperature is more conducive to viral replication, show me the evidence.

It is not my hypothesis. It is what I have been told and what googling seemed to support at the time. I don't know if I have enough time to google it extensively again and argue the reults but here is one quickly:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1965095&dopt=Abstract

...hyperthermia...of 41 C acts as an inhibitory agent on HSV-1 and VSV virus replication in Vero cells.

About the only thing that is well documented is that cold temperature makes your nose run.

It makes your nose, ears, hands and feet cold. It makes you shiver and get "goosebumps". It makes susceptible individuals cough or wheeze. If sufficiently cold it can cause gangrene and even death.

 

[DonJunbar]

If fan death is caused by climate factors, why Korea? Korea's climate is not particularly unique. It's fairly humid, and there is about a month-long stretch in the summer when temperatures are oppressively hot. But even Japan is hotter and more humid. Why isn't fan death more well known in places like the Phillippines or all the equatorial regions?

And speaking as someone who has survived four Korean summers, a fan does cool you off by evaporating the perspiration on your skin faster. It really is useful.

 

[Starthinker]

One day I noticed my coworker, who is a little woo-ish, staring at the servers. Our office is the server/equipment room. I asked him what he was thinking and he told me that he counted 44 fans in all the equipment. A couple per server, some of the routers and switches have little fans, and at least one or two in the computers. Not to mention the AC and air-moving fans we have going.

He said, "What if all those fans are creating little energy vortexes going in all different directions and they all twist and fight with each other and in turn, twist and fight with the energy in my body?" As a joke I gave him a quartz crystal the very next day (I have a big jar of them at home for just this purpose) and told him the natural vibrations of quartz will help keep him safe.

He worked here another year after that before he left for another job but in all that time he always carried that quartz crystal. He also got one to keep in his desk.

I almost considered using this as a sales ploy to move some crystals. I'm still not evil enough, though.

I still volunteer to go to Korea and live in a room full of fans. I've slept with one me for the better part of 15 years just because I need the white noise. Even in the coldest winters it's on in my closed up bedroom, and no, I don't get thirsty either.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

It's not working all that well in North Carolina of late. I run the ceiling fan at night, have the A/C on, windows closed and still get bit at 2 AM. With the temperatures of late (97 F + high humidity), that's approaching tropical.

That's why I said it was second best after a net. Have you thought about putting a lovely canopy over your bed? They make some stylish mosquito nets. Or, if you furnish your house like I do in Recycled American or College Innovation, you can sew one and string it up with simple cord and a few nails.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I am not a researcher, just passing on what I have heard form medical specialists.

Which of course is not a guarantee.

That would seem to support that view.

The nature of medical research is you go with the preponderance of evidence and ignore the abnormal results. So it then comes down to, is there a preponderance or is the jury still out?

The evidence strongly suggests no relation between cold and colds other than viruses may live longer on surfaces and people share more indoor air in the winter making some viruses spread more easily. However, the two studies were interesting and deserve more investigation. But until then, they are not in and of themselves sufficient to conclude the vast majority of the research examining this issue are wrong.

I didn't say it affected the immune system, only that the viruses replicate better at lower temperatures and hence would have a greater chance of taking hold in the body if the body was harbouring the virus and if the body temperature dropped....It is not my hypothesis. It is what I have been told and what googling seemed to support at the time. I don't know if I have enough time to google it extensively again and argue the reults but here is one quickly:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1965095&dopt=Abstract

41C is a very high fever. (105.8F) You were talking about someone with a normal temperature and you have no evidence core body temperature would even be changed in the described circumstances, because it isn't.

Your body just compensates, that's what being "warm-blooded" means. It means we regulate our temperature to maintain it at a different degree than the ambient temperature. Cold blooded animals have body temperatures similar to the ambient temperature. They have to sit in the Sun to warm up. We do it by burning calories.

I merely said hold off on your conclusion. IE it may be true but there is not sufficient evidence to state it as a fact.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

How about this:
Temperature above 105F. Humidity near 100%.

Cooling by evaporation won't cool your body under those conditions. Evaporation only works when the air can absorb more moisture. No evaporation, no cooling.

So, you are blowing more hot air onto your body. Effectively, you are heating yourself with the fan you meant to cool yourself with.

So, in the belief that the fan is helping cool you, you sit (or lie) there in your room and die of heat stroke (what's the proper expression for that?) Combination of dehydration and over heating.

Under those conditions, you need to find a way to cool yourself for real. Those conditions will get you anyway. The fan just fools people into sitting still long enough for it to happen, and maybe contributes a little to the heating.

Stating what Unrepentant said, but in different words, you are posing an hypothesis for the cause before there is evidence the phenomena actually even occurs.

 

[Slimething]

How about this:
Temperature above 105F. Humidity near 100%.

So, you are blowing more hot air onto your body. Effectively, you are heating yourself with the fan you meant to cool yourself with.

When you say "hot air", what do you mean? Is the air being heated or are you refering to 105 F air? If the latter, the fan would have no effect on your body temperature as the scenario would be adiabatic.

However, when have you ever been in a room with 100% relative humidity or anywhere close to that? Have you ever been in a foggy or rainy room?

 

[BillyJoe]

Which of course is not a guarantee.

No, I have been put on the wrong track before by medical experts.
Goddamn, who exactly can you trust these days.

The nature of medical research is you go with the preponderance of evidence and ignore the abnormal results. So it then comes down to, is there a preponderance or is the jury still out?

Sounds like you have researched this and you are about to give me the answer...

The evidence strongly suggests no relation between cold and colds other than viruses may live longer on surfaces and people share more indoor air in the winter making some viruses spread more easily. However, the two studies were interesting and deserve more investigation. But until then, they are not in and of themselves sufficient to conclude the vast majority of the research examining this issue are wrong.

That is a surprise. If I get time I will check that out.
When I was told viruses replicate faster at lower temperatures and that is why our immune systems reset our body temperature to a higher level (to reduce viral replication), it seemed so reasonable to me. Damn those medical experts.

41C is a very high fever. (105.8F) You were talking about someone with a normal temperature and you have no evidence core body temperature would even be changed in the described circumstances, because it isn't.

No, this was specifically addressing the question of whether viruses replicate more slowly at higher temperatures. It seems to support that hypothesis. Nevermind.

Your body just compensates, that's what being "warm-blooded" means. It means we regulate our temperature to maintain it at a different degree than the ambient temperature. Cold blooded animals have body temperatures similar to the ambient temperature. They have to sit in the Sun to warm up. We do it by burning calories.

What about the temperature inside your nose where, I assume, some of the viruses repicate? Is that at core body temperature? My guess would be it would be significantly cooler. It is winter here now and I have a thermometer, so if you wish to challenge this I will perform an experiment (n=1)

I merely said hold off on your conclusion. IE it may be true but there is not sufficient evidence to state it as a fact.

Fair enough. My confidence in my original statement is hereby on hold.
I may return.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Fevers may be a beneficial immune mechanism, but it's apples and oranges that less is better when you are talking about normal body temperature. In other words, just because 41C kills some viruses doesn't mean 96 or 95 is better than 98 for those same organisms.

You are correct that the conditions in the nasopharynx are conducive to the growth of typical cold viruses. The question to first ask is does making one's feet cold or one's hair wet in a cold clime, actually change the temperature in one's nasopharynx. It is clear that inhaling cold air does. My biggest gripe with the two studies was they didn't do the most simple verification of seeing what effect cold feet had on the nasopharynx. Nor did they even attempt to show what they were doing did anything other than making people's feet cold.

At least the hypothesis that the viruses were already infecting the study subjects and the cold merely triggered symptoms gets past the fact viruses cause colds, cold doesn't. But there are a few more holes to be filled before I'm buying their conclusions.

 

[Molinaro]

I have been sleeping with a fan a couple feet from my face for the past 30+ years, 365 days a year.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

Think the physics through here, KW (and the rest of you who bought this).

The fan increases evaporation. Evaporation does not increase sweating, in fact it would have the opposite effect. As the sweat evaporates it carries away heat. You are cooler and sweat less. Once that sweat is outside of your body you've already lost it!!!! So having it then evaporate doesn't make your sweat glands replace it, your body temperature determines how much you sweat.

About all a fan might do is result in you breathing in drier air but you don't get dehydrated simply from 8 hours breathing in dry air.

saved me some typing!!

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

MortFurd, by your reasoning we should have had millions of deaths in the Southern U.S. between the advent of the electric fan and the widespread use of air conditioning, but I'm unaware of any statistics bearing that out.

But there have been millions of deaths in the Southern US between the advent of the electric fan and the widespread use of air conditioning...

 

[BillyJoe]

I have been sleeping with a fan a couple feet from my face for the past 30+ years, 365 days a year.

So, when you divorced your wife, your girlfriend moved in the very next day???

 

[K-W]

With due respect skeptigirl I never claimed that fans increased sweating and as you yourself addressed not all moisture loss occurs through sweating, I am ill informed about the issue but not completely ignorant

About all a fan might do is result in you breathing in drier air but you don't get dehydrated simply from 8 hours breathing in dry air.

Perhaps you are right, I have no idea what the difference is in water loss here, it may very well be negligible. It is of course completely possible that I have felt a phenomenon which does not actually exist.


To comment on another issue, flying planes into buildings is pointless when you can fly planes over buildings and drop bombs on them. People from all nations and creeds have shown and continue to show every day that they are willing to take the lives of civilians and sacrifice their own lives for their beliefs.

 

[BillyJoe]

Skeptigirl,

Thanks very much!

I haven't had time to research whether cold causes a cold, but I performed an experiment (n=1).
It is winter here and yesterday I went to work in a short sleeved shirt.
On the way home I developed generalised aches and pains.
This morning I have nasal congestion and the beginnings of a cough.

My dogs are going to miss their long walk through the Dandenongs this weekend.
They thank you also.

BillyJoe.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

With due respect skeptigirl I never claimed that fans increased sweating and as you yourself addressed not all moisture loss occurs through sweating, I am ill informed about the issue but not completely ignorant ... Perhaps you are right, I have no idea what the difference is in water loss here, it may very well be negligible. It is of course completely possible that I have felt a phenomenon which does not actually exist.

You said it might be possible dehydration from a fan could cause death and thus be a source for this myth. I merely addressed the physiological basis why that was incorrect. I don't get your beef here? You aren't going to get dehydrated from a fan blowing on you. With due respect, how would I know what you believed or didn't believe the mechanism for such a death would be?

I agree with your other point.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Skeptigirl,

Thanks very much!

I haven't had time to research whether cold causes a cold, but I performed an experiment (n=1).
It is winter here and yesterday I went to work in a short sleeved shirt.
On the way home I developed generalised aches and pains.
This morning I have nasal congestion and the beginnings of a cough.

My dogs are going to miss their long walk through the Dandenongs this weekend.
They thank you also.

BillyJoe.

I suggest you add to this data by surveying every other person at your work site and everywhere else you went or who might have left viral material on a surface you touched and see how many of them are also ill. Then determine which of them were exposed to cold. Next calculate any difference between those exposed to cold and those not so exposed.

Then you will have to determine what effect wearing short sleeves had vs long sleeves given your face, I presume, was uncovered either way. And then there is the temperature of the air you are breathing. What effect did the short sleeves have on your upper airway that breathing cold air every single cold day didn't have?

 

[BillyJoe]

I suggest you add to this data by surveying every other person at your work site and everywhere else you went or who might have left viral material on a surface you touched and see how many of them are also ill. Then determine which of them were exposed to cold. Next calculate any difference between those exposed to cold and those not so exposed.

Then you will have to determine what effect wearing short sleeves had vs long sleeves given your face, I presume, was uncovered either way. And then there is the temperature of the air you are breathing. What effect did the short sleeves have on your upper airway that breathing cold air every single cold day didn't have?

That's a strange reply to a light hearted post.

But I understand what you are saying (hence my n=1 )
Saying I was in short sleeves was shorthand for saying that I decided to spend the whole day feeling cold, which included my hands, feet, nose and chest. I didn't actually expect to get a cold that very day.

The dogs are waiting at the back door, looking in through the glass, watching my every move. The little one is starting to grumble.....

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

That's a strange reply to a light hearted post.

But I understand what you are saying (hence my n=1 )
Saying I was in short sleeves was shorthand for saying that I decided to spend the whole day feeling cold, which included my hands, feet, nose and chest. I didn't actually expect to get a cold that very day.

The dogs are waiting at the back door, looking in through the glass, watching my every move. The little one is starting to grumble.....

I was worried you were claiming I just gave you evidence supporting woo. I didn't know you were kidding. Sorry, my bad.

 

[bragoria]

I first found out about Fan Death after stumbling across it in Wikipedia. It was unusual enough to stick in my momory.

A few weeks later, I discovered that a Korean housemate would soon be moving into my house. Unfortunately, it was winter in Australia when she moved in, so I had no choice but to twiddle my thumbs for six months...

...anyway, a few days later, she told me that she was afraid to leave the fan heater in her room on, in case she died during the night. I directed her to the Wikipedia article, as well as a few other web resources on the subject.

She was amazed - not just because of the articles that I showed her, but that I was able to type the URL of the Wikipedia article from memory (for those who don't know, all English Wikipedia articles start with the same URL prefix - I just had to add the words Fan death to the end).

Then it hit me - my housemate was so predictable, I was able to prepare my side of the conversation in advance, three weeks before I even met her.

Thankfully, she did agree to perform the experiment. She told me that she left the fan on overnight, with all the doors and windows shut. She seemed rather disappointed by the successful outcome.