Family Values Under the Bush Administration

[BPSCG]

...while it is almost certainly true that Idoitic economic policies hurts the Cubans more than idiotic embargoes, that doesn't magically make the harm from the embargo go away and the embargo is the topic of this thread.

Well, let's go back to the OP, shall we? Cleon asked:

Is there anyone who honestly thinks US policy towards Cuba makes even a little bit of sense? This is ridiculous. You shouldn't need permission from the State to visit your family.

To which I pointed out that Cuba refuses its citizens permission to visit the U.S.; if anything, Cuba is even more restrictive than the U.S. Someone pointed out here that 10,000 U.S. citizens are allowed to visit Cuba each year. How many Cuban citizens are allowed to visit the U.S.?

I didn't see where Cleon was talking about the economic embargo there; that issue appears to have worked its way into the discussion gradually. If you insist on limiting the discussion to the issue raised in the OP, then we should drop the economic debate right now and focus on how many Cubans are allowed to visit the U.S. each year, and vice-versa.

But the embargo is not the topic of the thread (the topic is misleadingly named, frankly), nor is it the topic of the OP. So you can claim the embargo is hurting the Cubans all you want, but don't accuse me of derailing the thread.

Now, perhaps the embargo has hurt Cuba economically, but I doubt even you think it would be anything other than a basket case even if it was lifted, because of the government's disasterous economic policies. So shouldn't everyone's attention be focused on how those disasterous policies can be changed, rather than on why the embargo should be lifted? Shouldn't the homeowner do something about the termites in his walls and the crumbling foundation under his house, rather than worrying about the faucet dripping in the kitchen?

Or do you think the damage done by the embargo is comparable to the damage done by almost fifty years of communism and that dripping faucet = (termites + foundation)?

 

[Cleon]

WTo which I pointed out that Cuba refuses its citizens permission to visit the U.S.; if anything, Cuba is even more restrictive than the U.S. Someone pointed out here that 10,000 U.S. citizens are allowed to visit Cuba each year. How many Cuban citizens are allowed to visit the U.S.?

That's a darn good question. Unfortunately, you seem to be forgetting that US law keeps Cubans from visiting the US as well. These folks wanted to visit Los Angeles, and it wasn't the Cubans who kept them from coming.

I didn't see where Cleon was talking about the economic embargo there;

The travel ban is part and parcel of the embargo, which I've noted you've yet to provide a rational justification for.

Now, perhaps the embargo has hurt Cuba economically,

Thank you for noting the obvious. It's a shame you had to accuse everyone of being apologists for communism before you picked up on it, though.

 

[Mycroft]

Do you have any logic or evidence to support this notion, and by extension the notion that the embargo weakens Castro?

I don't understand. Are you questioning that tourism is a significant source of income for Cuba?

 

[Mycroft]

Could you list the countries that you consider the Middle East?

I'm sure I could, but I see no reason to.

 

[Kerberos]

I don't understand. Are you questioning that tourism is a significant source of income for Cuba?

No that would be BPSCG. What you said was however that "For Cuba, tourism creates support for their system.". To me saying it supports thier system/regime/governement means that the embargo is an effective weapon against Castro or the Cuban regime. If you had said that the embargo hurt the Cuban economy I'd have no disagreement, but I don't think helping Castro thrash the Cuban economy is dreadfully productive either.

 

[Lurker]

I would presume the intent of the US embargo was to put pressure on Cuba in hopes that it would change its political system

Forty years later the embargo has not achived its goal. I would say that from the US perspective, the embargo has proven useless. Perhaps it is time to try another strategy.

Lurker

 

[Mycroft]

No that would be BPSCG. What you said was however that "For Cuba, tourism creates support for their system.". To me saying it supports thier system/regime/governement means that the embargo is an effective weapon against Castro or the Cuban regime. If you had said that the embargo hurt the Cuban economy I'd have no disagreement, but I don't think helping Castro thrash the Cuban economy is dreadfully productive either.

Would a stonger economy make it more or less likely that Cuba's political system would remain the same as it is?

 

[Lurker]

Would a stonger economy make it more or less likely that Cuba's political system would remain the same as it is?

Good question. The US seems to take both positions. For Cuba, we want to punish the people economically so they overthrow CAstro. In China the argument is that by showing them more prosperity, the Chinese will abandon communism.

How interesting but realistic that it shows that each problem is unique and has a unique solution.

Lurker

 

[Kerberos]

Well, let's go back to the OP, shall we? Cleon asked: To which I pointed out that Cuba refuses its citizens permission to visit the U.S.; if anything, Cuba is even more restrictive than the U.S. Someone pointed out here that 10,000 U.S. citizens are allowed to visit Cuba each year. How many Cuban citizens are allowed to visit the U.S.?

And you point it... What? That Cuba has a worse human rigths record than the US? Are you're saying that restrictions in the civil liberties of foreign states automatically justify civil liberties restrictions for American citizens up to the same point? If not I really can't see you point, unless of course you're just trying to avoid the issue Cleon raised.

I didn't see where Cleon was talking about the economic embargo there; that issue appears to have worked its way into the discussion gradually. If you insist on limiting the discussion to the issue raised in the OP, then we should drop the economic debate right now and focus on how many Cubans are allowed to visit the U.S. each year, and vice-versa.

But the embargo is not the topic of the thread (the topic is misleadingly named, frankly), nor is it the topic of the OP. So you can claim the embargo is hurting the Cubans all you want, but don't accuse me of derailing the thread.

I suppose I could argue as Cleon does that the travel restrictions are part of the embargo. Certainly the embargo falls under the cathegory "US policy towards Cuba".

Also you protest might carry a bit more weight if you hadn't use the exact same Straw men, red herrings and similar to derail the last thread about this topic.

Still let's not argue about that, I'm more than willing to drob the discussion about sugar and Cuban cigars and focus on tourism, it really makes no difference.

1) Given that tourism worldwide has increased significantly since the embargo started, and assuming that the embargo does hurt the Cuban tourist industry do you think that Cubans will build enough new hotels to meet:

a) The actual Embargo adjusted demand for Cuban hotels?

or

b) The demand for Cuban hotels that would have existed in the absence of an embargo?

If a go to question 2, if b go to question 3.

2) If you aknowledge that supply adjust to demand, why do you insist that there should be aditional vacansies in Cuban hotels? Profound ignorance of economics? Deliberate obtuseness in order to avoid admiting you're wrong? Non-deliberate obtuseness in order to avoid admiting you're wrong? An impresive ability to hold 2 mutaually exclusive notions in you head?

3) Could you share the groundbreaking economic theory that allows you to reach this consclusion? When will you publish? Can you invite me to the Nobel Prize ceremony when you get it?

4) do you aknowledge that vacations are non-generic goods?

5) Do you aknowledge that embargoes have an effect on non-generic goods?

6) Who do you imagine should fill the tourist gap left by 280 million Americans? The 33 million Canadians? Or do you imagine that rich Europeans will totally disregard the aditional travel costs and inconvinience and replace every potential US tourist instead og going to Spain, Italie or Greece?

7) Is there any chance you'll actually answer these questions or do you prefer to continue deploying red hearings, quoting out of context, molest basic economic theory and all around avoid the issue?

Now, perhaps the embargo has hurt Cuba economically

Perhaps?

but I doubt even you think it would be anything other than a basket case even if it was lifted, because of the government's disasterous economic policies.

Of course it would be a basket case, but it would be a lesser basket case.

So shouldn't everyone's attention be focused on how those disasterous policies can be changed, rather than on why the embargo should be lifted? Shouldn't the homeowner do something about the termites in his walls and the crumbling foundation under his house, rather than worrying about the faucet dripping in the kitchen?

When It comes to Cleon who started the thread and yourself, you are Americans. In other words words the embargo is your responsibility and you can as American voters actually influence the issue somewhat. If you have any constructive sugestions for getting Castro to imbrace market economy and human rights I'd love to hear themt, but I don't see how you can do anything. As for myself I probably can't influence either, but I joined the thread that was there. If you'd like to make a thread about Cuban Communism I'll join that too. I imagine it will go roughly along these lines:

OP:

Communism ruined the Cuban economy and Castro is an evil dictator.

1. response:

Yep.

2. response:

Totally.

3. response:

Water is wet.

4. response:

I heard the Pope is Catholic.

5. response:

I saw a bear **** in the wood. Why do they do that? There's a reason they've got public restrooms.

Or do you think the damage done by the embargo is comparable to the damage done by almost fifty years of communism and that dripping faucet = (termites + foundation)?

Perhaps you should read the post you responded to, if that task is to everwhelming you could just look at the part of my post you quoted, or perhaps just the first half line of that part.

 

[BPSCG]

Forty years later the embargo has not achived its goal. I would say that from the US perspective, the embargo has proven useless. Perhaps it is time to try another strategy.

Well, I suggested tougher, international sanctions, like were imposed on South Africa, but was hooted down by the would-be Castro-enablers here. The UN imposed sanctions against arms sales to South Africa, and many other countries imposed additional sanctions of their own. South Africa only treated most of its population brutally, while Castro treats substantially all of his brutally. But South Africa is/was deserving of harsher sanctions than Cuba, in the world's opinion.

 

[Kerberos]

Would a stonger economy make it more or less likely that Cuba's political system would remain the same as it is?

Less likely I believe, at least if you're hoping for regime change towards a more democratic governement. There is an extremely strong posistive corelation between prosperity and democracy. At least as long as the prosperity doesn't come from natural resources such as oil, but I don't believe that's an issue with Cuba. If you're satisfied with another dictatorship though, it's possible, though not certain, that a weaker Cuban economy could convince them to try a fascist dictatorship in place of a Communist one.

 

[Kerberos]

Well, I suggested tougher, international sanctions, like were imposed on South Africa, but was hooted down by the would-be Castro-enablers here. The UN imposed sanctions against arms sales to South Africa, and many other countries imposed additional sanctions of their own. South Africa only treated most of its population brutally, while Castro treats substantially all of his brutally. But South Africa is/was deserving of harsher sanctions than Cuba, in the world's opinion.

Since when is prohibiting arms sales tougher than prohibiting all sales and restricting travel? Also perhaps you could provide some actual defence of the embargo instead of persisting in dodging the question? You know ad hominems and straw men are not universally aknowledged as valid arguments. Some defence? Any defence?

 

[BPSCG]

And you point it... What? That Cuba has a worse human rigths record than the US?

Don't be silly. The point is that the problem may be much more Cuba's doing than the U.S.'s. Find out how many Cubans are permitted to leave the country to visit the U.S., and we'll have a better grip on that question.

Are you're saying that restrictions in the civil liberties of foreign states automatically justify civil liberties restrictions for American citizens up to the same point?

Nope. Just saying that U.S. policy is not solely to blame for the inability of Cuban Americans to see their families. I'm saying that U.S. policy might really be only a small part of it. Again, how many Cubans are allowed to leave and visit their families in the U.S.?

When It comes to Cleon who started the thread and yourself, you are Americans. In other words words the embargo is your responsibility and you can as American voters actually influence the issue somewhat.

Why should I? What's in it for me?

If you have any constructive sugestions for getting Castro to imbrace market economy and human rights I'd love to hear themt, but I don't see how you can do anything.

Then what's the purpose in dropping the embargo? Who does it benefit? Not me. You acknowledge Cuba will still be a basket case even if it is dropped. But why should that be if Havana's hotels are again full of American tourists (ah, you were despairing of my ever revisiting that issue)? If Americans are spreading cash all over the island, but Cubans are still living in misery, where is that money going? Well, there's one guy in that country who has an estimated ten percent of its GDP at his disposal. Can you guess who? And do you think that would change if the Americans were to come back?

 

[Kerberos]

Don't be silly. The point is that the problem may be much more Cuba's doing than the U.S.'s. Find out how many Cubans are permitted to leave the country to visit the U.S., and we'll have a better grip on that question.

how would that shed light on anything?

Nope. Just saying that U.S. policy is not solely to blame for the inability of Cuban Americans to see their families. I'm saying that U.S. policy might really be only a small part of it.

Has anybody denied that?

Again, how many Cubans are allowed to leave and visit their families in the U.S.?

Since you're the one who finds this relevant why don't you do the research?

Why should I? What's in it for me?

Well humanitarianism might be a reason, but as we know you don't give a **** about the welfare of Cubans. Also some Americans might like a chance to visit their family or just to go an a vacation, though that of cause still doesn't fulfill you demand for a selfish reason for oposing the embargo. Otherwise.. Well lacking an actual selfish reason to oppose the ambargo might be an adequate defence for indiference, but since you can apparently be bothered to actually support the embargo in this thread an actual positive reason for supporting it might be expected. Something that you have time, and time again proven yourself incabable of providing.

Then what's the purpose in dropping the embargo? Who does it benefit? Not me. You acknowledge Cuba will still be a basket case even if it is dropped. But why should that be if Havana's hotels are again full of American tourists (ah, you were despairing of my ever revisiting that issue)? If Americans are spreading cash all over the island, but Cubans are still living in misery, where is that money going? Well, there's one guy in that country who has an estimated ten percent of its GDP at his disposal. Can you guess who? And do you think that would change if the Americans were to come back?

Where the money would go? Most would probably go to the average Cubans, some would most likely go to Castro and his friends. Which part of "lesser basket case" was it you failed to comprehend? Those are a series of short simple words and English is presumably your native language.

ETA:
1) Given that tourism worldwide has increased significantly since the embargo started, and assuming that the embargo does hurt the Cuban tourist industry do you think that Cubans will build enough new hotels to meet:

a) The actual Embargo adjusted demand for Cuban hotels?

or

b) The demand for Cuban hotels that would have existed in the absence of an embargo?

If a go to question 2, if b go to question 3.

2) If you aknowledge that supply adjust to demand, why do you insist that there should be aditional vacansies in Cuban hotels? Profound ignorance of economics? Deliberate obtuseness in order to avoid admiting you're wrong? Non-deliberate obtuseness in order to avoid admiting you're wrong? An impresive ability to hold 2 mutaually exclusive notions in you head?

3) Could you share the groundbreaking economic theory that allows you to reach this consclusion? When will you publish? Can you invite me to the Nobel Prize ceremony when you get it?

4) do you aknowledge that vacations are non-generic goods?

5) Do you aknowledge that embargoes have an effect on non-generic goods?

6) Who do you imagine should fill the tourist gap left by 280 million Americans? The 33 million Canadians? Or do you imagine that rich Europeans will totally disregard the aditional travel costs and inconvinience and replace every potential US tourist instead og going to Spain, Italie or Greece?

7) Is there any chance you'll actually answer these questions or do you prefer to continue deploying red hearings, quoting out of context, molest basic economic theory and all around avoid the issue?

 

[varwoche]

30 minutes of googling and for the life of me I can't find an authoritative list of countries where US citizens are forbidden to travel.

This can't be right(?)...

As of February 2006, Cuba is the only country that the US government officially restricts its citizens from visiting.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

OK, OK! Keep your shirt on!

I'm just finding it difficult to locate anything "USA official" that actually says that US citizens are not specifically permitted to visit Cuba. Clearly I, and Google, are missing the location of that info...

Good enough for you, Zep? Straight from the horses mouth.

As I read it, you CAN travel to Cuba if given the proper permission from the US government. Permission is granted only for certain purposes. Tourism is not one of the things they allow you to go over there for, and you can be arrested if you try to circumvent the regulations by travelling through a third country.

ENTRY/EXIT REQUIREMENTS/TRAVEL TRANSACTION LIMITATIONS: The Cuban Assets Control Regulations are enforced by the U.S. Treasury Department and affect all U.S. citizens and permanent residents wherever they are located, all people and organizations physically in the United States, and all branches and subsidiaries of U.S. organizations throughout the world. The Regulations require that persons subject to U.S. jurisdiction be licensed to engage in any travel-related transactions related to travel to, from, and within Cuba. Transactions related to tourist travel are not licensable. This restriction includes tourist travel to Cuba from or through a third country such as Mexico or Canada. U.S. law enforcement authorities have increased enforcement of these regulations at U.S. airports and pre-clearance facilities in third countries. Travelers who fail to comply with Department of Treasury regulations will face civil penalties and criminal prosecution upon return to the United States.

Licenses are granted to the following categories of travelers and they are permitted to spend money for Cuban travel and to engage in other transactions directly incident to the purpose of their travel under a general license, without the need to obtain special permission from the U.S. Treasury Department’s Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC):

- Journalists and supporting broadcasting or technical personnel (regularly employed in that capacity by a news reporting organization and traveling for journalistic activities)

- Official government travelers on official business.

- Members of international organizations of which the United States is also a member (traveling on official business).

- Full-time professionals whose travel transactions are directly related to research in their professional areas, provided that their research: 1) is of a noncommercial, academic nature; 2) comprises a full work schedule in Cuba; and 3) has a substantial likelihood of public dissemination.

- Full-time professionals whose travel transactions are directly related to attendance at professional meetings or conferences in Cuba organized by an international professional organization, institution, or association that regularly sponsors such meetings or conferences in other countries. An organization, institution, or association headquartered in the United States may not sponsor such a meeting or conference unless it has been specifically licensed to sponsor it. The purpose of the meeting or conference cannot be the promotion of tourism in Cuba or other commercial activities involving Cuba, or to foster production of any bio-technological products.

- Travelers who have received specific licenses from OFAC prior to going.

Specific Licenses to Visit Immediate Family Members in Cuba

bolding mine.

 

[BPSCG]

30 minutes of googling and for the life of me I can't find an authoritative list of countries where US citizens are forbidden to travel.

This can't be right(?)...

Cool! Now Mrs. BPSCG and I can go on that vacation in North Korea we've always wanted!

 

[varwoche]

Cool! Now Mrs. BPSCG and I can go on that vacation in North Korea we've always wanted!

Better bring a flashlight.

 

[BPSCG]

Better bring a flashlight.

Ixabert, we hardly knew ye!

 

[Lurker]

Well, I suggested tougher, international sanctions, like were imposed on South Africa, but was hooted down by the would-be Castro-enablers here. The UN imposed sanctions against arms sales to South Africa, and many other countries imposed additional sanctions of their own. South Africa only treated most of its population brutally, while Castro treats substantially all of his brutally. But South Africa is/was deserving of harsher sanctions than Cuba, in the world's opinion.

How can we have tougher sanctions on Cuba? We don't trade ANYTHING with them now. We could TRY and get tougher by not doing business with others who do business with Cuba but that would alienate the rest of the world.

By the way, the rest of hte world is fine with dealing with Cuba. Only the US, Israel and the Marshall Islands stand with us. Hard to get tougher International sanctions there.

Lurker