Fake MLM crap :)

[icerat]

It's the 'L' in MLM. "Ten recruiters above you" means you're recruited by someone who's recruited by someone who's recruited...ten times until the founder of the company. THIS DOES HAPPEN IN AMWAY. You're commission depends almost entirely on the level of the person who recruited you!

Sorry Astrodude, but you're mistaken. In Amway who recruited you has ZERO influence on your commission. I'm not aware of it occurring in any other legitimate MLM either (a starting point for legitimacy is being a member of the DSA)

That's the 'level' in multi-level marketing. If you're paid primarily based on how much you sell, it's called single level marketing.

Single level marketing refers to single level direct to the consumer (retail). Multi level marketing is when your selling both direct to the consumer (retail) and to resellers (wholesale). Wholesale transactions may occur over several levels, and typically the higher the volume, compared to your overall total, the small margin you will make.

But who recruited you still has zero influence at all on commission level.

 

[icerat]

Can we get back on topic? Which product isn't real?

 

[Joecool]

Sorry Astrodude, but you're mistaken. In Amway who recruited you has ZERO influence on your commission. I'm not aware of it occurring in any other legitimate MLM either (a starting point for legitimacy is being a member of the DSA)

True, but what he is saying (I think) is that in Amway, even if you get "paid" based on volume, there are always layers of middlemen somewhere in the chain taking most of the commission.

For example, in Amway, the lowest qualifying bracket is 100 PV. 100 PV generates roughly $90 in Amway bonus. The guys who moved 100 PV will get about $10 and layers of upline middlemen get the rest of the $80.

 

[Astrodude]

Sorry Astrodude, but you're mistaken. In Amway who recruited you has ZERO influence on your commission. I'm not aware of it occurring in any other legitimate MLM either (a starting point for legitimacy is being a member of the DSA)



Single level marketing refers to single level direct to the consumer (retail). Multi level marketing is when your selling both direct to the consumer (retail) and to resellers (wholesale). Wholesale transactions may occur over several levels, and typically the higher the volume, compared to your overall total, the small margin you will make.

But who recruited you still has zero influence at all on commission level.

You're partially right according to an FTC report. Amway, now Quixtar isn't like most MLM. Still, at Amway, the person who recruits you determines the pin level and those "upline" de facto get a cut of the commission via leadership bonuses and such. It may be beneficial if they're honest about it, but I wouldn't do it.
Most MLM do offer the recruiters a percent of the commission of their recruits to basically make it impossible to outearn the salesmen who recruited you. That's how you know it's a scam.

 

[icerat]

You're partially right according to an FTC report. Amway, now Quixtar isn't like most MLM.

Still, at Amway, the person who recruits you determines the pin level

Nope, not at all.

and those "upline" de facto get a cut of the commission via leadership bonuses and such.

Some do, but not all.

It may be beneficial if they're honest about it, but I wouldn't do it.

being honest about it certainly helps, but it's not for everyone, no.

Most MLM do offer the recruiters a percent of the commission of their recruits to basically make it impossible to outearn the salesmen who recruited you. That's how you know it's a scam.

If that's happening I'd agree, but that's not the norm in legitimate MLMs. Most of the top earners in most DSA member companies make a lot more than the people who recruited them. You don't just automatically get a percentage of what downline create, there are others necessary to qualify.

If you can't make more money than whoever recruited you, then yes it's a good sign of a scam.

 

[cwalner]

oramio.com/photos/large/10255013.jpg[/qimg]
Amway World Headquarters
They also have farms and processing plants in California, Washington, Mexico, and Brazil and manufacturing operations in India and China (for in-market use only at present, no exporting).

Except for that the caption simply says world headquarters. It looks like a nice office building, with a warehouse, but clearly does not have any access to dump waste materials, that I would expect to see in a manufacturing plant.

This could be a distribution center, but that is not what I asked for. What specifically do they manufacture there? Are the farms and plants in CA actually under Amway's name, or are they also 3rd parties (like the for fee training you mentioned about my other question).

The reason I don't believe you is that from my personal experience (working for a company that actually did manufacture for MLM's) the MLM's regularly claim to manufacture the products themselves, even when it is outsourced. I will simply not take the word of an MLM that they do their own manufacturing.

 

[Joecool]

Can we get back on topic? Which product isn't real?

One could argue that Amway products are defacto products, made to avoid the pyramid charge.

 

[icerat]

Except for that the caption simply says world headquarters. It looks like a nice office building, with a warehouse, but clearly does not have any access to dump waste materials, that I would expect to see in a manufacturing plant.

Are you nuts? The place is a mile long! And you can claim from that photo it "clearly does not have any access to dump waste materials"? Have you applied to JREF for the million dollar prize for your apparently supernatural eyesight?

Ahhh I see. You demanded to see a google map location, so I gave it to you, so that's no longer good enough.

Here's the main warehouse, in Spaulding Ave, down the road.

This could be a distribution center, but that is not what I asked for. What specifically do they manufacture there?

Amway manufactures over 450 products. I don't know which ones are manufactured there and which ones elsewhere.

None of this is exactly secret you know, several entire books have been written about the company. Grand Rapids even opened a museum exhibit about them in celebration of their 50 year anniversary.

Are the farms and plants in CA actually under Amway's name, or are they also 3rd parties (like the for fee training you mentioned about my other question).

Yes they belong to Amway. More specifically the Nutrilite Division and/or Access Business Group, the logistics division. I'm not party to all the intricacies of their corporate structures.

Here's the california location for Nutrilite - both sides of the main road (you'll see google mentions both Nutrilite and Access)

Here's the Nutrilite Lakeview Agricultural Research Center and farms in Buena Vista, California. Nutrilite is a division of Amway.

Here's the Trout Lake Farm in Trout Lake, Washington. It's owned by Trout Lake Farms LLC, which was majority bought by Amway in 1999.

The reason I don't believe you is that from my personal experience (working for a company that actually did manufacture for MLM's) the MLM's regularly claim to manufacture the products themselves, even when it is outsourced. I will simply not take the word of an MLM that they do their own manufacturing.

Oh good grief. Amway is one of the largest privately held companies in the world. It's 52 years old. It gets written up a case study by The Times. It's won environmental awards from the United Nations. It's owners have been personal friends with Presidents, one was even an honorary pallbearer for President Ford. It's been the major US sponsor at multiple World Expo events. It has hundreds of patents and it's researchers have published etc etc etc etc.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Cwalner,
I'm no fan of Amway (as JoeCool and IceRat can likely attest), so take this from someone on "your side". Amway and Avon are both on my company's target list for accounts to handle. (I'm in shipping.) I've worked with one of them (won't say which) and I ship for another rather well-know direct sales company (which obviously shall remain nameless).

Not only do they have facilities, but they move GOODS. Massive amounts of goods. e.g. hundreds of thousands of containers full.... Whether they manufacture them or purchase them, they are in the business of buying and selling merchandise, at least as a large portion of the foundation of their business. (The issue is not whether there's any merchandise involved - it's how said merchandise is marketed and the structure of that side of the organization. I doubt you could show me a Walmart factory anywhere. Nor Sears, nor JC Penney, nor Staples. Those companies are all merchants, retailers, marketers.)

 

[cwalner]

Cwalner,
I'm no fan of Amway (as JoeCool and IceRat can likely attest), so take this from someone on "your side". Amway and Avon are both on my company's target list for accounts to handle. (I'm in shipping.) I've worked with one of them (won't say which) and I ship for another rather well-know direct sales company (which obviously shall remain nameless).

Not only do they have facilities, but they move GOODS. Massive amounts of goods. e.g. hundreds of thousands of containers full.... Whether they manufacture them or purchase them, they are in the business of buying and selling merchandise, at least as a large portion of the foundation of their business. (The issue is not whether there's any merchandise involved - it's how said merchandise is marketed and the structure of that side of the organization. I doubt you could show me a Walmart factory anywhere. Nor Sears, nor JC Penney, nor Staples. Those companies are all merchants, retailers, marketers.)

I get that they move goods. However, having worked for a company that manufactured for other MLM's (which according to the agreement and the labeling we put on the product, the MLM claimed to manufacture) I am dubious of the claims of actual manufacture by Amway, or any MLM.

This doubt is then reinforced by the simple fact that they don't sell any products that are in any way distinctive from something available from non-MLM companies. To me it is just another false claim that MLM's use to present a false legitimacy.

ETA: I agree about Walmart, sears, JC Penny and Staples, but I have never heard anybody claim that they manufacture their products.

 

[Ferguson]

Can we get back on topic? Which product isn't real?

But that's not actually the topic, is it?
You said yourself, that you don't know which one is fake. Lots of snake oil and bogus products are sold, both through direct marketing and MLM, I think the people on this forum are probably more aware of that than most.
So, presumably you're trying to make some kind of point, so what is it?

 

[icerat]

But that's not actually the topic, is it?
You said yourself, that you don't know which one is fake. Lots of snake oil and bogus products are sold, both through direct marketing and MLM, I think the people on this forum are probably more aware of that than most.
So, presumably you're trying to make some kind of point, so what is it?

Umm, no, that is the (main) point. I think the list is hilarious (though a little scary!) I thought it would be fun to post them and see if people could work out the made up one and how they came to that conclusion.

Instead, sadly, it's the same old silly rants from generally the same people.

 

[Joecool]

Now, by definition, except in some limited circumstances, Amway only sells to the sales force. Many manufacturers and wholesalers only sell to resellers and not direct to the consumer. Not exactly unusual.

The difference is that in real businesses, those wholesalers and resellers eventually profit by selling to a customer. In Amway, the IBO is the wholesaler, the reseller and the customer. That means upline diamond's bonus comes from the jobs of their downline, not from the sales their downline generates.

 

[Muldur]

Well, I know the "Death Bonus" one ISN'T the fake product. It's an increasingly common practice in corporations to take out bulk life insurance policies on people with the company named as beneficiary. Once this practice was limited to CEOs and other high-value managerial types whose untimely demise could really hurt the bottom line, but bottom feeding corporations looking for any and every way to make a buck have pushed that all the way down to the sales/production floor.

Today it's called "dead peasant's" or "dead janitor's" insurance, it's formal name is Corporate Owned Life Insurance, or COLI.

The exact number and names of which businesses have gone this particularly dirty route are not know, but a partial list of those most suspected can be found here:

http://deadpeasantinsurance.com/which-employers-bought-policies-on-the-lives-of-employees/#more-43

 

[Brian-M]

I received an email today about MLM products from Len Clements, an author and expert consultant in the MLM industry. Here's what Len had to say -

Below is a short description of several M.L.M. products. All but one is a real product, that was, or is, actually sold by an M.L.M. company. You must choose which is the fake product. After reading the list the common reaction is that I mistakenly reversed my description of the list, and I must have meant that all but one are fake and you must select the one real product. Nope. As hard as it will be to believe, only one is fake.

Let's see how many I can find...

#1 - Sound Wave Gel. Status: "Real"
http://www.angelfire.com/tn/SacredLabyrinth/ipage5.html

#2 - Oxygen Supplement. Status: "Real"
http://regenerativenutrition.com/shop-product.asp?cat=71&prod=77
Strangely, "antioxidant" is listed amongst it's effects.

#3 - Electrical Matrix Aligner. Status: "Real"
http://www.electricalbody.com/faq.htm

#4 - Luminescent Blood. Status: "Real"
http://www.new-cancer-treatments.org/Treatments/Wheatgrass.html

The intent of this protocol is to kill microbes which are inside the cancer cells. This treatment is based on several assumptions which are as of yet unproven:
1) That chlorophyll will "remember" ultraviolet light frequencies,
2) That chlorophyll will enter inside of cancer cells,
3) That the chlorophyll, charged with ultraviolet light frequencies, will kill the microbes which are inside of the cancer cells, allowing the cancer cells to revert into normal cells.

Wait, what?

#5 - Antibody Trainer.
Having trouble finding a similar product.

#6 - Shoe Insoles. Status: "Real"
http://www.magnetictherapyinsoles.com/

#7 - Amazing Crystals.
Having trouble finding a similar product.

#8 - Death Bonus. Status: "Real"
http://deadpeasantinsurance.com/which-employers-bought-policies-on-the-lives-of-employees/#more-43
Thanks Muldur for the link. With that many companies taking that route, it's almost certain that there's at least one MLM involved.

#9 - Age Reversing Capsules. Status: "Real"
http://www.mlmwatch.org/06FTC/Oasis/oasisftc1.html
There's lots of products like this.

#10 - Sour Milk Perfume. Status: "Real"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kubus_scheme
Apparently this scheme went belly-up in the 80's.

#11 - God's Soap. Status: "Real"
http://libertytothecaptives.net/miracle_II_real_master_critique_testimony.html
I wonder if his soap recipe is anything like the one God gave the Israelites in Numbers 19:1-13?

#12 - Dilution Solution. Status: "Real"
http://www.homeopathyonline.in/kit.htm

#13 - Asteroid Juice. Status: "Real"
http://siberianlight.net/russiaguide/tunguska-juice

#14 - Magic Wand. Status: "Real"
http://zeropointenergyrevolution.com/blog/amega-global-black-tip-energy-wand
Now 30% more powerful! Harry, yer a quantum wizard.

So, the "fake" one is probably one of these two...

#5 - Antibody Trainer.
#7 - Amazing Crystals.

 

[icerat]

#5 - Antibody Trainer.

This one sounds like 4Life Transfer Factor, which uses chickens.

#7 - Amazing Crystals.

As someone else pointed out, the water freezing at room temperature is a bit of a giveaway I suspect. Ain't gonna happen unless your room happens to be a vacuum.

 

[jayh]

In situations where the emphasis is on actually selling goods to people who aren't distributors,, then I believe these are okay. But when the salesforce is the primary target for sales of goods and training, I believe those are scams. In that regard, I believe Amway is the grandaddy of them all,

I wonder what percentage of the income of the big dealers is from the beginners who bought their thousands of dollars worth of product which they never sold, compared with product sold to actual consumers.

I say this because in my life I've known people who bought their 'beginners packages', which stayed in their basement for years.

 

[icerat]

I wonder what percentage of the income of the big dealers is from the beginners who bought their thousands of dollars worth of product which they never sold, compared with product sold to actual consumers.

I say this because in my life I've known people who bought their 'beginners packages', which stayed in their basement for years.

1. Amway has never had a "beginner package" that costs thousands. Any company that does is probably a scam (or you've encountered someone trying to scam you using a legit company)

2. All legit MLMs offer extensive money back guarantees, so anyone with a basement full is either (a) an idiot (b) deliberately done so, in violation of the rules, to scam the company of a bonus they don't deserve or (c) both

3. Amway reported a few years back in India, and I think a similar figure was reported in FTC vs Amway back in the 70s, that less than 10% of revenues comes from products and/or membership fese bought at signup.

There are numerous purported MLMs that essentially offer you bigger ongoing commissions if you buy a bigger "product package" at signup. I was looking at a comp plan like that last night. That's a clear warning sign it may not be legit.

 

[Joecool]

1. Amway has never had a "beginner package" that costs thousands. Any company that does is probably a scam (or you've encountered someone trying to scam you using a legit company)

Right, what Amway has is a cheaper package. But the leach tool companies, such as Network 21 or WWDB often have IBOs representing Amway who might sell starter packages for hundreds or maybe thousands.

New prospects have no idea about what Amway offers them because "Amway" doesn't recruit new IBOs. New IBOs don't always know about money back guarantees, because "Amway" doesn't tell them. The only way for IBOs to know this is to speak to their sponsor or upline, who represents Amway.

 

[Brian-M]

This one sounds like 4Life Transfer Factor, which uses chickens.

Thanks, I didn't manage to find that one.

As someone else pointed out, the water freezing at room temperature is a bit of a giveaway I suspect. Ain't gonna happen unless your room happens to be a vacuum.

Or it's winter, you live in an extreme latitude and you have no heating. In which case room-temperature might drop below freezing.

But surprisingly, there actually are ways to get water to freeze at normal room tempertare and air pressure... http://www.newscientist.com/blog/technology/2006/05/freezing-water-at-room-temperature.html