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Faith and Reason

justsaygnosis

Critical Thinker
Joined
Dec 10, 2002
Messages
263
From


ENCYCLICAL LETTER
FIDES ET RATIO
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
JOHN PAUL II
TO THE BISHOPS
OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON THE RELATIONSHIP
BETWEEN FAITH AND REASON


http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/j.../hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html





Different stances of philosophy

75. As appears from this brief sketch of the history of the relationship between faith and philosophy, one can distinguish different stances of philosophy with regard to Christian faith. First, there is a philosophy completely independent of the Gospel's Revelation: this is the stance adopted by philosophy as it took shape in history before the birth of the Redeemer and later in regions as yet untouched by the Gospel. We see here philosophy's valid aspiration to be an autonomous enterprise, obeying its own rules and employing the powers of reason alone. Although seriously handicapped by the inherent weakness of human reason, this aspiration should be supported and strengthened. As a search for truth within the natural order, the enterprise of philosophy is always open—at least implicitly—to the supernatural.

Moreover, the demand for a valid autonomy of thought should be respected even when theological discourse makes use of philosophical concepts and arguments. Indeed, to argue according to rigorous rational criteria is to guarantee that the results attained are universally valid. This also confirms the principle that grace does not destroy nature but perfects it: the assent of faith, engaging the intellect and will, does not destroy but perfects the free will of each believer who deep within welcomes what has been revealed.

It is clear that this legitimate approach is rejected by the theory of so-called “separate” philosophy, pursued by some modern philosophers. This theory claims for philosophy not only a valid autonomy, but a self-sufficiency of thought which is patently invalid. In refusing the truth offered by divine Revelation, philosophy only does itself damage, since this is to preclude access to a deeper knowledge of truth.



Does anyone here feel damaged for refusing to reconcile science with 'divine revelation'?
I just thought it would be more fun flaming the vatican than muscleman.
 
truth

those who believe through faith do not care about the truth or reality.

they know they are right because they are told that they are.
regardless of how anything really is, they know they are right...

Scott
 
Really, how is the above passage different than a Muscleman post? True, it's appropriately punctuated, with correct spelling and grammer, and a nice display of vocabulary... but its semantic content is just as vapid as MM yelling. "I am right because I am right!"
 
Re: truth

ScottDYelich said:
those who believe through faith do not care about the truth or reality.

they know they are right because they are told that they are.
regardless of how anything really is, they know they are right...

Scott

KINDA LIKE YOU SCOT, WITH BOTH OF YOUR HANDS COVERING YOUR EARS, REFUSING TO DEBATE WITH ME LIKE A COWARD THAT YOU ARE, THEN FALSELY ACCUSE ME OF WHAT U DO VERY WELL..UNLIKE ME, IM SURROUNDED BY ATHEISTS, WILLING TO DEBATE AND CHALLENGE ANY PHILOSOPHIES U GUYS CAN BRING, SO FAR, I CANNOT EVEN COUNT HOW MANY TIMES I DEBUNKED ATHEISTS ARGUMENTS HERE..

IN FACT, I CAN EVEN LIST THEM ONE BY ONE, EVEN BY THE SCREEN NAMES...

HAVE U GUYS DEBUNKED ME AT ALL? NOT EVEN ONCE... IF U CLAIM U HAVE, THEN POST IT.....IF I HAVE 1 MILLION DOLLARS RIGHT NOW, ILL OFFER IT TO YOU IF U CAN FIND ANY "FLAW" OF MY ARGUMENTS........
 
Muscleman you should realize by now that there are many different attitudes expressed on this forum. If someone isn't going to agree that's just the way it is. This isn't combat so the 'winners' and 'losers' get to keep on playing.
Personally I see no basis in fact for the existence of 'anthro-god' who behaves far more like a person than a supernatural order of being. I'm not alone in my belief that that representation of god is entirely a human invention.
If something is true then it's true. If religion refuses to put its' seal of approval on a fact it remains a fact. If science refuses to put its' seal on a fact its' still a fact too.
We can test things scientifically. How do we test things religiously?
 
Gnosis,

If the whole Faith / Reason thing can be separated from the Vatican a moment, I'd like to give this topic a quick direction. Please forgive me for not starting my own thread.

First, if Steve Hawking is correct (Universe in a Nutshell), then within the next hundred years -- he gives a more precise estimate -- there will be a technical scientific paper written every seven minutes in the world. Hawking predicts that the rate of new knowledge will surpass humanity's ability to sort it.

At this point, how will we decide which theoretical roads to pursue, or to fund? You obviously can't use Reason to evalute theory that hasn't been reviewed. If Hawking is correct, and we don't somehow create machines smarter than we are, then there will by necessity enter some other method for determining valid science-- or it will all become valid. Further, the scientific path will be forced to fork on equally competing claims of truth-- through populatity, social constructions, and economic funding priorities. We already see a hint of that beginning to today, but the problem will be mutiplied 100 fold over the next century. At that point, does faith enter the equation? Not religious faith mind you, but what? I can accept the answer of randomness or chance-- though that's not entirely an accurate portrayal of the potential method.

Flick
 
Re: Re: truth

muscleman said:


KINDA LIKE YOU SCOT, WITH BOTH OF YOUR HANDS COVERING YOUR EARS, REFUSING TO DEBATE WITH ME LIKE A COWARD THAT YOU ARE, THEN FALSELY ACCUSE ME OF WHAT U DO VERY WELL..UNLIKE ME, IM SURROUNDED BY ATHEISTS, WILLING TO DEBATE AND CHALLENGE ANY PHILOSOPHIES U GUYS CAN BRING, SO FAR, I CANNOT EVEN COUNT HOW MANY TIMES I DEBUNKED ATHEISTS ARGUMENTS HERE..

IN FACT, I CAN EVEN LIST THEM ONE BY ONE, EVEN BY THE SCREEN NAMES...

HAVE U GUYS DEBUNKED ME AT ALL? NOT EVEN ONCE... IF U CLAIM U HAVE, THEN POST IT.....IF I HAVE 1 MILLION DOLLARS RIGHT NOW, ILL OFFER IT TO YOU IF U CAN FIND ANY "FLAW" OF MY ARGUMENTS........

mm --

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15628&perpage=10&pagenumber=2

I invite/invited you to debate/discuss topics. You probably
didn't see that other post before you posted the above.

Note that my invitation requires that you agree to act like
an adult... no name calling, no caps, we talk about 1 topic
in a civilized manner. I don't need a $1 challenge or any
threats...

Your choice...

Scott
 
justsaygnosis said:
Muscleman you should realize by now that there are many different attitudes expressed on this forum. If someone isn't going to agree that's just the way it is. This isn't combat so the 'winners' and 'losers' get to keep on playing.
Personally I see no basis in fact for the existence of 'anthro-god' who behaves far more like a person than a supernatural order of being. I'm not alone in my belief that that representation of god is entirely a human invention.

A MIND CANNOT COMPREHEND WHATS "OUTSIDE" OF THE PROGRAMS WITHIN THE MIND.. IF THE RIVER FLOWS IN ONE DIRECTION, YOU CANNOT SWIM AGAINST ITS CURRENT FOR LONG(KNOWLEDGE PLACED ON OUR THOUGHTS), IT MAY STAY FOR A WHILE, BUT EVENTUALLY IT WILL BE THROWN OUT TO THE CORNER AND WILL NOT BE ON THE RIVER FOR LONG...

IN THE SAME WHY GOD HAVE TO SPEAK IN PARABLES. A PARABLE IS BASED ON OUR ENVIRONMENT, THINGS WE CAN UNDERSTAND. IF HE SAYS THE KINGDOM OF GOD CAN BE LIKENED TO A MUSTARD SEED, THATS BECAUSE WE KNOW HOW SMALL MUSTARDS SEED ARE AND HOW HUGE THEY TURN INTO... IF GOD USED THE DEVIL AS A "SNAKE", THATS ONLY BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT SNAKES ARE "TRAITORS", WHICH CAN NEVER BE TAMED, BUT WILL STRIKE WHEN THEY ARE HUNGRY AT ANYTIME IT WISHES...

AS OUR INTELLIGENCE PROGRESS, WE CAN ONLY LEARN THE KNOWLEDGE PRESENTED ON OUR FACE, NOT OUTSIDE OF OUR REALITY. GOD IS KNOWLEDGE. TO SAY THAT A GOD "HAVE TO" ABIDE TO WHAT WE KNOW IS ABSURD.. WE ABIDE TO WHAT GOD KNOWS, WE WERE FORMER APES (AS ALL ADULTS WERE FORMER ZYGOTE...)
justsaygnosis said:

If something is true then it's true.

WHY IS IT TRUE? BECAUSE U WERE BRAINWASHED? NOT QUESTIONING YOUR BELIEF ATHEISM? IS IT DOGMATIC? WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU HAVE FOR YOUR "ORGANIZED CULT"? OTHER THAN "JUST BECAUSE I SAY SO, THEN IT IS TRUE, DONT QUESTION IT, JUST BELIEVE IT".... SORRY, BUT I AM A REAL SKEPTIC, UNLIKE YOU WHO DOESNT QUESTION YOUR OWN "CULT"...

UNLIKE YOU, I BELIEVE MULTITUDE OF "EVIDENCE" MUST BE PRESENTED IN ORDER TO CONFIRM THINGS TO BE "TRUE", OR A FACT...


justsaygnosis said:

If religion refuses to put its' seal of approval on a fact it remains a fact. If science refuses to put its' seal on a fact its' still a fact too.
We can test things scientifically. How do we test things religiously?

TEST SCIENTIFICALLY? SCIENCE HAVE NOT TESTED BLACKHOLE. THEY HAVE "OBSERVED" ITS APPEARANCE AND HOW IT ACTS. THEY USE "IMAGINATIONS" (REASONS) AND THE KNOWLEDGE IMPARTED TO THEM FROM THE WORLD (LIKE PARABLES) TO APPLY WHAT THEY LEARN HERE, TO THERE. THAT WHEN ENOUGH WORLDLY "IMAGINATION" IS IMPARTED, IT MAYBE CALLED "HYPOTHESIS", PRESENT A SINGLE EVIDENCE, THEN IN DUE TIME MAY BECOME "A THOERY"...

HAVE YOU TESTED GOD? NOPE, JUST YOU HAVENT TESTED KING HENRY. BUT YOU PUT "FAITH" THAT THEIR WORDS ARE TRUE. AS MUCH AS WE PUT "FAITH" THAT THE APOSTLES WERE TRUE, TO VALIDATE THE TRUTH IN THEIR CLAIM, THEY PREACHED THE GOOD NEWS FOR FREE, STONED, MOCKED, REJECTED, BUT A SPIRIT DRIVES THEM TO TELL THE WHOLE WORLD, AND AT THE END. SOME WERE FED BY THE LIONS, OTHERS SUFFERED MORE...

THOSE ACTS IS TRUE, HOW DO I KNOW ITS TRUE? BECAUSE THEY ARE IMMITATED HUNDREDS OF YEARS LATER, TILL THIS DAY, MANY SO-CALLED CHRISTIANS KNOCK ON YOUR DOOR, GO ON TO THE WORLD AND PREACH, THOUGH WITH TWISTED THINKING (SUCH AS THE MORMON). BUT THAT IDEA DIDNT COME TO THEM "MAGICALLY".. NOPE, THATS CALLED TRADITION... OR AS WE SAY, HISTORICAL FACT...

AND LASTLY, HOW DO WE TEST THING RELIGIOUSLY THAT WE MAY KNOW IT TO BE TRUE?

FIRST ONE, IS THE TEACHING LOGICAL? DOES IT MAKE SENSE? FOR INSTANCE, DOES IT MAKE SENSE THAT IF YOU LOVE YOUR ENEMY, YOU CAN BURN THEM WITH SHAME AND ENDS UP LIKING YOU?

YES IT IS A FACT, TRY IT, MY MOTHER HAS, IT ALWAYS WORK, THE VERY PERSON ENDS UP EVEN LIKING YOU 100 FOLDS MORE THAN HE HATES YOU, INDEED YOU WILL BURN THEM WITH SHAME..

TEST ALSO WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF SIRACH, IT SAYS "UNENDING SLEEP, TO CONSTANT ILLNESS".. IS IT TRUE THAT IF I SLEEP TOO MUCH, IT MAKES ME SICKER AND SICKER?

I PERSONALLY HAVE DONE IT, ITS NOT HEALTHY, MAKE ME FEEL MORE SEXUAL, TIRED, ILL TEMPERED, AND FAT...

SO I BELIEVE IT IS TRUE THAT THE LESSER U SLEEP, THE HEALTHIER YOU ARE..

YOU CAN TEST THE WORD OF GOD.......
 
Mucleman thanks for the reply but I think you believe I'm looking for an argument.
When I said something is true or not regardless of whether science/religion or both reject or accept it that's pretty much an axiom. It's not an axiom because I say so it just is.
We still have a lot left to learn.
To return to the god/s who behave/s like a man I find no proof of such a god/s but you are correct in saying that billions of people have killed and died for those beliefs.
If the promises in Acts are valid there should be scores of 'miracle-workers' running the planet. The world is full of people filled with faith but it is only in the fellowship and congregation of their fellows they find substantiation for that faith. Aside from those congregations we all share pretty much the same lot in life.
For the record I'm far more agnostic than athiest although I am very much an iconoclast.
 

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