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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof

Einstein didn't like or understand black holes, that's true. He also didn't accept quantum mechanics even though his own work on the photoelectric effect (for which he was awarded the Nobel) pointed directly to it. He spent the later years of his life searching for a unified theory, and failed. He was wrong about many things.


Exactly. Just like how Isaac Newton was wrong about alchemy and Galileo was wrong about the supposed perfect circular motions of the planets.


He was also the greatest genius in physics that ever lived. That's life - it's not black and white.

The opinions of any individual are totally irrelevant. What matters is the physics, and we understand the physics far better now than Einstein ever did. That's what 90 years of work on a theory will buy you.


I always find it interesting to see how many woos (like robinson and the plasma cosmology goofs) will try to quote Einstein out of context or point to him and state that their views of physics are correct.

It's the same kind of incorrect argument from authority that creationists make when they quote Stephen Gould out of context or try to appeal to old, defunct ideas such as Lamarckism when misrepresenting biological evolution.
 
The data on magnetism effecting gravity is pretty dang interestin. The Earth's field is very weak. I wonder what we would find on Jupiter, with it's huge magnetic field?


What "data"?


This is is one of those things that nobody thinks to look for, because they assume it can't happen. Most consider EM and gravity to not have any effect on each other at all. Period. So most don't even look at the data.

If magnetism effects gravity, even on a very very small level, it changes things. But it sure would make Einstein happy to know.


This sounds a lot like robinson talking out of his rear-end to me. There are electromagnetic effects on objects, just as there are gravitational effects upon those same objects, but to blindly claim that "EM affects gravity" is a new one to me.

As we currently understand them, EM and gravity are two fundamentally different forces. Without some kind of unifying theory to relate them to one another, then to say that one "affects" the other is just making stuff up.

Do I sense more hand-waving to follow? :rolleyes:
 
The data on magnetism effecting gravity is pretty dang interestin. The Earth's field is very weak. I wonder what we would find on Jupiter, with it's huge magnetic field?

This is is one of those things that nobody thinks to look for, because they assume it can't happen. Most consider EM and gravity to not have any effect on each other at all. Period. So most don't even look at the data.

If magnetism effects gravity, even on a very very small level, it changes things. But it sure would make Einstein happy to know.

What was the title of this thread again?
 
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof

Did you think it was only going to be about dark matters?
 
Speaking of, in several other threads here, there is this insanely long back and forth going on, either about dark matter, or magnetism, or electric currents, or all of it thrown together. Every time something about electricity/magnetism (EM) is presented, the gravity people insist on all kinds of evidence to explain it.

Or just outright dismiss everything. It depends. One of the things plasma cosmologist/Electric Universe proponents, I'm not quite sure what to call them, proposed, long ago, was that the earth and sun are connected my magnetism, and that charged particles flow from the sun to the earth through these lines.

It explained both the amount of energy, as well as how particles could accelerate after they left the sun, on their way to us. Which was an extraordinary claim. (It was widely dismissed, ridiculed and ignored by most "experts" on the sun). Calls for evidence on the matter ignored the simple fact that without a way to measure and observe such an event, how could you show evidence?

No matter, the really smart people insisted it couldn't happen, and they knew what was going on out there. Remember, this isn't very far above our heads we are talking about. It is on the front doorstep, astronomically speaking. Now that we have the satellites and ground based observations, we know that the EM theory was correct, and indeed there are GIANT magnetic ropes connecting us to the sun, and charged particles do accelerate down them, and we know a lot more than we did.

For more, see this thread.

So when I see people wondering about the different readings for gravity, (which are very very small, but still huge compared to what was expected), I keep an open mind. We know very little about gravity. And nobody, not the smartest people in the world have figured it out yet. (No no, not the Laws of Gravity, how it works).

That the two most fundamental forces have no effect on each other at all, has baffled every serious researcher, since science discovered them.

Anyone who claims to know something new about these matters, is going to be asked for extraordinary evidence. (Not proof, nobody uses that word in science, except maybe math).
 
Examples of claims might include the 11-dimensional M-theory, Matrix string theory, or my favorite, the Perturbative string theory.
 
Examples of claims might include the 11-dimensional M-theory, Matrix string theory, or my favorite, the Perturbative string theory.

Claims of what, Robinson? What the heck are you talking about?

If you think E&M and gravity don't interact in the theories we already have, you're totally wrong (as usual).

For one thing, haven't you ever heard of gravitational lensing?
 
If you think EM and Gravity interact, please tell us.

I just did, Robinson. See, that's what I meant when I said "If you think E&M and gravity don't interact in the theories we already have, you're totally wrong (as usual)", but I guess you found that confusing.

Let me spell it out slowly:

G R A V I T A T I O N A L
L E N S I N G

Of course that's far from the only example, but it's the most obvious.

Ever wonder why black holes are black? That would be kind of hard if gravity didn't interact with E&M, now wouldn't it?
 
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Your lack of understanding about GR is astounding. So tell us, do you think light doesn't travel in a straight line because of gravity?
 
Your lack of understanding about GR is astounding. So tell us, do you think light doesn't travel in a straight line because of gravity?

Yeah, you're right: I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm just making things up, mocking people with stupid :D for stating basic facts about physics I didn't know and don't understand. I certainly never studied GR, let alone taught it, but I'm sure everyone else is wrong.

Oh wait, sorry, I got confused - that's you, not me!

Light travels along a very special sort of "straight line" called a null geodesic. Such a line looks curved if you think spacetime is flat.
 
I asked you a direct question. If you think light is effected by gravity, please tell us. Do you think light doesn't travel in a straight line because of gravity?

How does gravity effect EM? Or the other way round, how does EM effect gravity?
 
I asked you a direct question. If you think light is effected by gravity, please tell us. Do you think light doesn't travel in a straight line because of gravity?

How does gravity effect EM? Or the other way round, how does EM effect gravity?

We've already significantly documented that light travels along a curved path if you make the poor assumption of flat spacetime.

His answer was actually direct. Light does not travel along a curved path, but only for certain definitions of straight.
 
It is a simple question. Are photons (the particle that EM acts through) effected by Gravity?

We understand GR predicts spacetime is warped by gravity. The "curved" path is not curved to the photon, only to an outside observer. Do photons change because of gravity? Slow down, change direction, change frequency, lose or gain energy, in any way?

In other words, does gravity interact with photons?

The other way is just as interesting. Do photons effect gravity in any way?
 
Because if sol has some information about gravity effecting photons, that would be very interesting.
 
Claims of what, Robinson? What the heck are you talking about?

If you think E&M and gravity don't interact in the theories we already have, you're totally wrong (as usual).

For one thing, haven't you ever heard of gravitational lensing?


Gravitational lensing - <slaps head> - how stupid of me not to have thought of that!!! :mad:

Of course, that only addresses the "gravity affecting EM" question. I seem to recall that robinson claimed that "EM affects gravity", which is why I was so confused. I'm not sure he even knows what he's asking. I sure as hell don't know what he's asking...

Sol, I'm trying to think of a case where "EM affects gravity", but I'm coming up blank now. Any ideas?
 
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I asked you a direct question. If you think light is effected by gravity, please tell us.

For the third time: YES, LIGHT IS AFFECTED BY GRAVITY.

It is a simple question. Are photons (the particle that EM acts through) effected by Gravity?

YES.

We understand GR predicts spacetime is warped by gravity. The "curved" path is not curved to the photon, only to an outside observer. Do photons change because of gravity? Slow down, change direction, change frequency, lose or gain energy, in any way?

YES.

In other words, does gravity interact with photons?

YES.

The other way is just as interesting. Do photons effect gravity in any way?

YES.

Because if sol has some information about gravity effecting photons, that would be very interesting.

Robinson: GRAVITATIONAL LENSING

Gravitational Lensing

gRAVITATIONAL lENSING

Sol, I'm trying to think of a case where "EM affects gravity", but I'm coming up blank now. Any ideas?

Sure. The neutron/proton mass splitting is in part due to the difference in charge (i.e. the energy in the EM field of the proton). That difference is overwhelmed by other factors (which is why the proton is lighter), but nevertheless it contributes to measurable mass differences in elements. There are other examples like that in particle physics - charged versus neutral pion mass splitting, kaons etc. - but it's a little harder to weigh those particles gravitationally.

Theoretically speaking, gravity acts on all forms of energy including EM. For example you could make a black hole out of photons, or out of a big region containing an electric or magnetic field.
 
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It is a simple question. Are photons (the particle that EM acts through) effected by Gravity?

We understand GR predicts spacetime is warped by gravity. The "curved" path is not curved to the photon, only to an outside observer. Do photons change because of gravity? Slow down, change direction, change frequency, lose or gain energy, in any way?

In other words, does gravity interact with photons?

The other way is just as interesting. Do photons effect gravity in any way?
The photon will not "change because of gravity". As far as it is concerned it is moving along a straight line with no forces acting on it (see Newton's First Law). But space-time is warped by gravity so that line is actually bent. Thus the direction of travel of the photon is bent.

Gravitational lensing is just bending of light by a mass and can be observed quite close by: Light Deflection at the Sun (a blog review with plenty of citations).
 

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