Expose fake miracle, get arrested

By the way, some of "them" are saying -from the source in OP, the description on their youtube videos and in other parts- "Several petitions on the base of Article 295 of Indian Criminal Procedure Code (Indian Blasphemy Law) are already filed against Sanal" (see "watch?v=kUqhq9MuRG8" on Youtube)

Where's the blasphemy within the text of that law? Read if you like that article -I provided the text above- or the whole chapter about "Religion" -I provided the link above-. "Blasphemy" is not the misconduct those articles address but just the respect of group beliefs and sacred places, which is not surprising in a country with so many religions, that suffered one and a half million deaths driven by religious affiliation, and having periodically temple and church bombings with dozens and even hundreds killed, as we all can read in the news. I'm not surprised any disorderly conduct regarding religious places is heavily prosecuted in such a cultural and historical context, and I agree with that, in spite I consider gods or only god -personal or impersonal- to be false notions coming from early primitive stages in human development, as well as heaven, hell, soul and other niceties. But ethics is not a ghost of our past. Not at all.
 
On a broader scope it just speaks to a wider problem. Woo slingers of all kinds have learned the power in playing some variation on the "tolerance" card.

On social level this has become the "You're being mean" chestnut. We ask for some simple evidence that whatever fluff you believe is true, suddenly we're big meanies that want to take all the joy out of life.

On a legal level this is starting to manifest as people trying to legally, in one for or another, to prevent people from disagreeing with their Woo by calling it "hate speech" or even the monumentally backwards idea of bringing back blasphemy as a legal concept.

TL; DR version: Long story short, wrong people have a vested in interest in promoting the idea that it's wrong to tell people that they are wrong.
 
aleCcowaN said:
If you heard the bold part, can you tell us the exact time in the video? Your texts implies you did.
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It's within a couple of minutes. I sat through all the pointless text at the beginning (seriously, why start a video off with text telling you what you're about to see in the video?), then they started speaking in Hindi, so I moved the pointer forwards a minute or two to get a picture of an anchor standing to the left of the screen (our left, her right), with 4 boxes to the right arranged in a square with 4 different people shouting at and over each other, one of whom was the priest who was shouting (paraphrased) "if it were capillary action, then water would be dripping from everywhere, not just the feet"). As everybody was shouting over the top of each other and I've had a long and stressful week, I turned the video off very quickly afterwards. So within the first 5 minutes or so.

I have half a dozen contacts in language forums that are Hindi native speakers and that I helped much learning Spanish. I could ask some of them to hear short parts of the video and tell me what they're saying.
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There's no need. Only the very beginning is in Hindi, the rest is in English.

You have to have hints of some elements of the story being real before speaking of "working hypothesis".
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I'd suggest that you need to have examined the evidence presented in an article before declaring that article to be "lame and BS", especially if you're going to be disparaging other people's critical thinking skills while doing so.
 
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I have a few concerns about this whole case. Who declared the event a miracle. Local Church leaders do not have that right or ability. It is submitted to the Vatican and they make the final call

The Church of Our Lady of Velankanni appears to have nothing official or unofficial about the miracle

http://www.velankannichurch.com/

This may not be an official website, so I am happy to be corrected

I tried to watch the video but the language is beyond me. We really have no idea what the debate is about, or who said what exactly. The criminal code posted seems to suggest a charge could be laid, however the non-official condition of the miracle suggests (To me anyway) the arrest is more about placating the local church leaders and little to do with the process of law.

Finally I would suggest code 295 is aimed more towards Hindu and Muslim followers who in the day had a great tradition of invading each others temples and defacing carvings statues etc
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
They could claim that 295A covered blasphemy. Whether such a charge would stand up or not is another matter, but the law is worded ambiguously enough to allow it.
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Don't you forget that who is calling it "blasphemy" is the very person who supposedly can be arrested any second, or people close to him.

Why could someone distort bonafide a legal situation to show "the counterpart" as a medieval bigot? Malafide, I have no problem to answer the same question. That's the whole point. The article linked in the OP is just gruesome malafide, as much as people claiming miracles is just gruesome primitive. Two wrongs doesn't make a right.
 
Wait a minute

Squeegee Beckenheim said:
Well, there is a link to a YouTube video of a priest arguing that it is a miracle and not capillary action in the article cited in the OP.

<snip>
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Squeegee Beckenheim said:
It's within a couple of minutes. I sat through all the pointless text at the beginning (seriously, why start a video off with text telling you what you're about to see in the video?), then they started speaking in Hindi, so I moved the pointer forwards a minute or two to get a picture of an anchor standing to the left of the screen (our left, her right), with 4 boxes to the right arranged in a square with 4 different people shouting at and over each other, one of whom was the priest who was shouting (paraphrased) "if it were capillary action, then water would be dripping from everywhere, not just the feet").

<snip>
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And the miracle part of your previous post? I exactly heard the same as you, that's why I asked you about in the first place. The miracle part is still missing. How do you know he is a priest? Which religion would he be (as it stands from that video)? Otherwise you would be trying to elevate to the category of fact what seems to be apparent just to you.

And don't get me wrong. I not only call into question the critical thinking skills of a bunch of people in these fora. I call into question their ethics too.
 
MG1962 said:
The Church of Our Lady of Velankanni appears to have nothing official or unofficial about the miracle

http://www.velankannichurch.com/

This may not be an official website, so I am happy to be corrected
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Here, the whole story briefly told by journalists -I suppose-:

AsiaNews

Al least this text doesn't trigger a dozen alarms when I read it (it doesn't contain "heuristic negative cues" as they use to call them) as the Indiana Jones like tale from "rationalistinternational" did.
 
As you say, starting about 8:20 (the parts I understand)

Bishop (of Mumbai, I presume): "Can I speak in En.? I'll speak in English ... dripping .... it might possibly? Yes ... it might have natural causes. It is possible it is natural. The Church has not said it is a miracle. We would never say it's a miracle unless it's been investigated very carefully, scientifically ... What we object to is to state that this has been created by the priest to make money. This cross is in a compound that don't belong to the priests and there's no collection of money. This is a false charge against the priest ..."

Then it comes a reply by Sanal E. I can't fully understand. He refers to a judge I think and later says "basically believe it's a scam". Could someone transcript the essential parts of this reply (00:09:30 to 00:10:00)?

EDIT: Later Sanal E. says he's happy the claim of a miracle has been withdrawn while the bishop and the lady on screen shout repeatedly no claim about a miracle had been made. The bishop adds he doesn't think it's a miracle.

I keep expecting the part where they "vow to harass" S.N. :rolleyes:
 
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Sanal says something about "priests approached me saying it's a miracle" which could be clearer, especially given the news report that xians, hindu and muslim praying together was "a miracle". Unfortunately it's a shouting match not a debate.
 
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