Explain to me why we should not have universal healthcare

[commandlinegamer]

And there I was thinking Gattaca was science fiction.

 

[RandFan]

And there I was thinking Gattaca was science fiction.

FTW.

 

[Corsair 115]

Number of uninsured Americans rises to 50.7 million

The U.S. Census Bureau web site has a section devoted to the matter of health insurance for those looking for more data.

 

[RandFan]

The U.S. Census Bureau web site has a section devoted to the matter of health insurance for those looking for more data.

Thanks. Data is from 2009 BTW, I think my number is in line with the census data given rate of growth.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

When you reference people so poor that they can't afford very cheap healthcare, you're talking about a very small demographic, i.e. an extreme case. It doesn't apply here.

Are you saying that if we simply ignore the people who can't afford access to healthcare then there are no other people who can't afford access to healthcare?

Of course this applies. In fact, it's pretty much the central issue when it comes to UHC: making sure everyone has access to healthcare.

 

[RandFan]

When you reference people so poor that they can't afford very cheap healthcare...

Are you saying that if we simply ignore the people who can't afford access to healthcare then there are no other people who can't afford access to healthcare?

Of course this applies. In fact, it's pretty much the central issue when it comes to UHC: making sure everyone has access to healthcare.

I think tempesta is engaging in one or two fallacies here. Perhaps more. First, doesn't the premise implicitly assume the conclusion? Doesn't the premise require an assumption not in evidence? (namely that "free market" healthcare is "very cheap") whatever "very cheap" means. Is that like lead based Chinese toys cheap? Making it also ambiguous?

 

[Travis]

I don't doubt that left to it's own devices a completely free market health insurance situation could be very cheap......but only to those that are perfectly healthy. Who are the only people they would choose to cover.

And that's the problem. People thinking about these free market solutions forget that lots of people are not perfectly healthy and they need health care too. They need it more in fact. It's like they just think that wishful thinking will make kids born with tumors, malformed bones or cancer just go away.

 

[RandFan]

I don't doubt that left to it's own devices a completely free market health insurance situation could be very cheap......but only to those that are perfectly healthy. Who are the only people they would choose to cover.

And that's the problem. People thinking about these free market solutions forget that lots of people are not perfectly healthy and they need health care too. They need it more in fact. It's like they just think that wishful thinking will make kids born with tumors, malformed bones or cancer just go away.

Yes, and children cannot stay on their parents health plan forever. When I did have insurance my child was covered. When I lost my coverage he didn't have any. He has a preexisting condition and no insurance company would take him. Laissez-faire also means screw the unfortunate.

 

[Rolfe]

Veterinary medicine is a lot closer to completely free-market than human. It is still very expensive if your horse breaks a leg.

Rolfe.

 

[Travis]

Yes, and children cannot stay on their parents health plan forever. When I did have insurance my child was covered. When I lost my coverage he didn't have any. He has a preexisting condition and no insurance company would take him. Laissez-faire also means screw the unfortunate.

In Libertopia there will be no unfortunate. Only those unfit to live.

Veterinary medicine is a lot closer to completely free-market than human. It is still very expensive if your horse breaks a leg.

Rolfe.

Wow, are bullets that expensive over there?

 

[RandFan]

Wow, are bullets that expensive over there?

Policeman: Why'd you do it, kid?
Robert: Because she asked me to.
Policeman: Obliging bastard. Is that the only reason you got, kid?

 

[Mister Agenda]

I know the original question is why we shouldn't have universal healthcare and I haven't read the whole thread, but it looks like it's wandered enough that I won't be too offtopic if I share a thought or two on how to improve healthcare.

We have a hybrid free market/government subsidized health care system which is good at innovation but poor at price control. The normal free market process of reducing prices is largely negated by the way we pay for health care through intermediaries such as insurance or Medicaid/Medicare; that is, the beneficiaries have little incentive to shop around for a good price/deal. When it comes to pricing we have the worst of both worlds. How can we expand health coverage without exacerbating the pricing problem?

I think an expansion of Medicaid to cover the uninsured that uses medical savings accounts to cover those means-tested to be unable to reasonably afford conventional insurance or the particular insurance they need due to a pre-existing condition might be an effective way to go. Regular payments are made to the account, which is used to pay for the insurance, and excess goes toward the deductible. Any deductible money not used in a given year stays in the account, allowing the insurance payment to get smaller for having a large deductible. In the course of a person's life, anything not used for their medical care is transferred to a retirement account when they become eligible for Medicare. This gives them some incentive (not likely enough to get them to forego care they need) to be conservative with how much they spend on medical care, so it should have, at worst, a neutral effect on health care prices. It also gives the recipient a great deal of latitude on their health care. For instance, they could forego the deductible surplus to purchase more comprehensive insurance, or add some of their own money to the account.

I don't think government support of health care and free market solutions have to be completely at odds.

 

[Rolfe]

Wow, are bullets that expensive over there?

That went whooshing right over your head, didn't it....

Fixing broken legs on horses is doable these days, depending on the exact nature of the fracture. It is however very expensive.

There is of course an alternative, if you can't afford it. This is the sort of medicine the free-market proponents favour.

Rolfe.

 

[Blue Mountain]

Fixing broken legs on horses is doable these days, depending on the exact nature of the fracture. It is however very expensive.

What's the cost range for getting a horse with a treatable leg fracture ambulatory again?

 

[Travis]

That went whooshing right over your head, didn't it....

It was a simplistic joke to be sure but I couldn't pass it up.

 

[RandFan]

It was a simplistic joke to be sure but I couldn't pass it up.

Not mine. (I mean it didn't go over my head, I got the joke and Rolfe's point).

Policeman: Why'd you do it, kid?
Robert: Because she asked me to.
Policeman: Obliging bastard. Is that the only reason you got, kid?

Robert: They shoot horses don't they?

 

[Rolfe]

What's the cost range for getting a horse with a treatable leg fracture ambulatory again?

How long is a piece of string? I'm not an orthopod, never mind an equine one. But you better have a lot of money.

You could check out this referral practice, although that's actually for small animals and so generally cheaper.

Rolfe.

 

[Kopji]

Three of the worlds five largest and six of the worlds ten largest pharmaceutical companies are based in Europe...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pharmaceutical_companies

...Actually it seems fairly outrageous to me. If more profit could be made then they would already be going after it regardless of what they are making in the US.

If the US becomes a less easy place to make a profit, there is business incentive to focus on new sources of profit. Again, it does not sound very outrageous to me that businesses focus on easy profits first. I'll move on though, whadda I know?

I don't want to go off topic, I'm merely trying to say that although some may like to think of the US as an independent country, that is something of a pleasant fiction. My skepticism is about silo charts comparing different countries costs of health care as if we were all independent.

My list of device companies was trying to make that point. I feel like my point was missed because the responses were all about drug companies, not device companies - quite a different business than pharma. And, anyway, do you think that those European do not make profits from the US system?

...The US is not subsidising health care costs or drugs costs in other countries...

http://pnhp.org/blog/2009/08/25/europe-leads-in-pharmaceutical-research/

Thanks I appreciate the responses. A little frustrated because I feel like I asked about apples and got back data on oranges.

From Tatyana's link:

"Other large studies show that most new drugs add few if any clinical benefits over previously discovered drugs."

I'd completely agree with that, it implies that there is not much creative effort coming from drug companies. (Maybe in genetic cancer drugs, interesting field there.) Maybe why I used medical device companies as examples.